Christian flourishing in a pluralistic setting

zippy2006 · Nov 23, 2020

public hermit said:
I think that's right. There's always a variable in the equation that is unpredictable. It's the "be at peace, as far as you are able" factor.

Yep, and I tend to think that Christians have too high of expectations in these areas. They think that if they do all the right things, are filled with love and compassion, and listen attentively to diverse points of view, then their own lives and the culture will flourish. Yet neither Christ's teaching nor his life reflects this point of view. I don't think reality does either. For whatever reason, the wicked are given dominion and the just are persecuted. It seems to me that the New Testament only intensified that riddle. To speak tongue in cheek, we might say that the God of the book of Job came down to earth and ended up having to revise his position. ^_^

DamianWarS · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
How can Christians and Christian communities flourish in a pluralistic setting, contributing to the common good of all within that setting, without becoming isolated and thus ineffective or becoming relativistic and thus ineffective?

This account comes from For the Life of the World:Theology That Makes a Difference by Miroslav Volf and Matthew Croasman (BrazosPress; Grand Rapids, Michigan; 2019; pp. 104-107).

"What are some key elements of a Christian account of flourishing life that allow those who embrace it to live in peace and pursue common good in pluralistic settings, and to do so not only notwithstanding its claim to be true for every human and the entire world, but also largely because of it?"

1. Trinitarian monotheism: "...God is the source not just of the unity of the world but also of all the stunning diversity in it. Since, for Christians, the one God is the Holy Trinity, God is internally differentiated. Difference is not secondary, subsequent to unity; difference is equiprimordial with unity."

2. God is Unconditional Love: "God is not a mere omnipotent force. Neither is God a mere universal lawgiver. The central attribute of God is unconditional love...God brings all creatures into being and keeps them in being...Even when humans fail to live according to the law of love, God seeks to mend the world and bring it to its intended fullness so it can become what God created it to be: our home and God's home in one."

3. Jesus Christ the Light of the World: All light and all truth, whether possessed by Christians or non-Christians, is the light of the Word and therefore Christ's light. This too is the consequence of monotheism: not just that the truth about flourishing life that Christ proclaimed is for all people, but also that in virtue of Christ all people always already possess some of that truth, that they have what Justin Martyr famously called "seeds of the Word" (First Apology). It cannot be otherwise: if the Word is the creator of everything, all genuine insights derive from God who was in Jesus Christ. All truth sought and found anywhere takes us, ultimately, to Christ as its origin."

4. Distinction between God's rule and human rule: The Christian church is a loose international network of communities whose primary allegiance isn't to the states of which they are citizens or to some yet-to-be-created global super-state but to the one God of all people. Political pluralism and transnationalism fit well with the Christian vision of flourishing life."

5. The moral equality of all human beings: "All people have equal dignity; all have the same rights and the same moral obligations; all have fallen short of those obligations. There are no moral outsiders according to the Christian faith."

6. Freedom of religion and areligion: "The call of Jesus Christ "Come, follow me!" presumes that an individual who hears it is free to follow or not. From the earliest beginnings, it was clear that faith is either embraced freely or not at all: one believes with the heart, which is to say not by outward conformity to ambient influences or in reaction to outside dictates backed by overwhelming force but with the very core of one's being. Behind the stress on embracing faith freely lies the conviction that every person has the responsibility for the basic direction of his or her life."

The authors believe that these six principles are foundational to the Christian faith and if we embrace them we can nurture a culture of respect, live peaceably with others who differ from us, and create a space to live and dispute with other worldviews while flourishing together.

Thoughts?

I'm familiar with Volf's books critically looking at Isalm and Christianity and how to better respond, these topics are certainly within his language. I think a problem with the Western Church is we spend a lot of time isolating ourselves and making private communities that we lose focus and no longer have the skillset to live our faith in a pluralistic world we instead throw rocks at it from afar and too afraid to step outside our insider circles. This accomplishes 2 things: 1. it estranges ourselves with our mission and 2. it estranges our mission with God because they have no visible access to him they feel comfortable in. Paul tells us to become all things to all men for the sake of the gospel and if you want to minister to the Jew, the weak, [insert mission here] you must become the Jew, the weak, [insert mission here]. At our heart, we need to be missional in everything we do not just superimpose big church over targeted areas to check a box but to actually go out and do as much good as possible without forcing a church banner, just simply do good. Walk down your street with a goal of I will do something good and then do it (even if it's just picking up trash). The way you approach life will be different and you're not just in black-tinted SUVs racing by to get to some arbitrary goal with a camera in your hand to take pictures for your newletters but the journey outside the vehicle is the means to accomplish the goal and participation in your surrounding is mandatory rather than avoided.

Hazelelponi · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
the unity of the world

There is no "unity of the world"... There are two distinct groups according to Scripture, those in covenant with God and those at enmity with God/outside of covanent.

If we look like the world or are in unity with the world we are not in covenant with God.

public hermit said:
God seeks to mend the world and bring it to its intended fullness so it can become what God created it to be: our home and God's home in one."

Huh? God seeks to bring us into reconciliation with Him - that is life-giving.

We wait now while HE brings His enemies under His feet:

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet." 1 Corinthians 15:26-27

public hermit said:
All light and all truth, whether possessed by Christians or non-Christians, is the light of the Word

Huh?

public hermit said:
Political pluralism and transnationalism

Huh? Again, two groups of people. The Kingdom to which we belong is transcendent of earthly realms, not pluralistic with them.

public hermit said:
all have fallen short of those obligations

For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Yes. Other than that I'm back to huh?

public hermit said:
6. Freedom of religion

I don't believe in a libertarian freewill. I'm a compatiblist.

Look, I really don't understand half of all that new age Christianity mumbo jumbo...

We cannot compromise our faith or our beliefs under any circumstances, but I cant say I much care what the world does with itself. They are enemies of God.

I once was too, and I have compassion on their blindness as I also was once blind, I care enough about them to share Christ with them.

But in the end, we have little in common. I can talk politics, weather, whatever, be kind, treat them in every way as I would want to be treated myself... but we have little in common, and I'm not a pluralistic person as I won't compromise my faith - which is always the end game of people talking about pluralism.

"for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Corinthians 6:14

bèlla · Nov 24, 2020

I think the missing term in your OP is adversity. That’s what we’re really discussing. Our ability to flourish in challenging environments is directly related to our makeup.

Some people thrive in those conditions and others crack. Irrespective of their beliefs. Some people can’t handle pressure or opposition. They need agreement and acceptance to flourish. They can’t march to their own drummer or go it alone.

Independence is the tipping point. You can’t flourish if you rely on others to stand. You must have the capacity to remain erect no matter what. You can’t be weak or dependent. Just because you’re a believer doesn’t mean you’re strong or mentally tough. I’ve never met a person who flourishes who lacked those traits.

Need is a common factor in religion. But needing God doesn’t mean you’re needy. There’s a difference.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

zippy2006 said:
They think that if they do all the right things, are filled with love and compassion, and listen attentively to diverse points of view, then their own lives and the culture will flourish

I wonder to what extent it has actually been tried. For much of Christian history in the West, Christianity has dominated. In some ways, the early church is our primary example of how Christianity flourishes in a pluralistic context. How did they do that and did any if it resemble the six principles in the OP?

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
Look, I really don't understand half of all that new age Christianity mumbo jumbo.

What about the six principles is new age? The Trinity? Christ is the light of the world? Christianity is transnational and not beholden to any one government? I'm not seeing "new age" in any of that.

Hazelelponi said:
We cannot compromise our faith or our beliefs under any circumstances, but I cant say I much care what the world does with itself. They are enemies of God.

There is no mention of compromise, at all. We live in a pluralistic context, whether we like it or not. How do we go forward? You seem to be saying we should isolate, or perhaps be combative? God loves the world, i.e. John 3:16. How do you reconcile that with your position that you just don't care about those who are not Christian?

Hazelelponi said:
I once was too, and I have compassion on their blindness as I also was once blind, I care enough about them to share Christ with them.

And if they don't accept Christ, are they no longer worthy of your care and concern? If you live in a country where many believe and many don't, can you ensure your neglect and lack of concern for the flourishing of those who don't will not have an adverse effect on your own flourishing?

Hazelelponi said:
But in the end, we have little in common. I can talk politics, weather, whatever, be kind, treat them in every way as I would want to be treated myself... but we have little in common, and I'm not a pluralistic person as I won't compromise my faith - which is always the end game of people talking about pluralism

You have so much in common. You are neighbors, you work together, you shop at the same places and share the same economy, you have the same government, share the same resources, your children know each other and spend time together , on and on. You have so much in common with those who don't believe. To not recognize that and try to live together In peace, if possible, working for the common good, which you share with them whether you like it or not, does not seem wise.

No one is saying we should compromise our faith. Living in peace and working towards the common good is not compromise.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

DamianWarS said:
I'm familiar with Volf's books critically looking at Isalm and Christianity and how to better respond, these topics are certainly within his language

He has a very interesting history. I will have to look for his work on Islam and Christianity.

DamianWarS said:
I think a problem with the Western Church is we spend a lot of time isolating ourselves and making private communities that we lose focus and no longer have the skillset to live our faith in a pluralistic world we instead throw rocks at it from afar and too afraid to step outside our insider circles. This accomplishes 2 things: 1. it estranges ourselves with our mission and 2. it estranges our mission with God because they have no visible access to him they feel comfortable in. Paul tells us to become all things to all men for the sake of the gospel and if you want to minister to the Jew, the weak, [insert mission here] you must become the Jew, the weak, [insert mission here]. At our heart, we need to be missional in everything we do not just superimpose big church over targeted areas to check a box but to actually go out and do as much good as possible without forcing a church banner, just simply do good. Walk down your street with a goal of I will do something good and then do it (even if it's just picking up trash). The way you approach life will be different and you're not just in black-tinted SUVs racing by to get to some arbitrary goal with a camera in your hand to take pictures for your newletters but the journey outside the vehicle is the means to accomplish the goal and participation in your surrounding is mandatory rather than avoided

There is so much here I agree with. I think the Western Church just doesn't know what to do in a context in which it is not dominate. I agree that isolation for the church is wrongheaded. I wonder of it's going to take a few generations to adjust, and truly live the way of Christ instead of trying to control cultural changes, primarily through politics.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

bèlla said:
I think the missing term in your OP is adversity. That’s what we’re really discussing. Our ability to flourish in challenging environments is directly related to our makeup

Good point. Of course, for some folks diversity, diversity meaning not everyone is Christian, implies adversity. But, I agree. That is what we're really talking about.

bèlla said:
Some people thrive in those conditions and others crack. Irrespective of their beliefs. Some people can’t handle pressure or opposition. They need agreement and acceptance to flourish. They can’t march to their own drummer or go it alone

I agree. But to be fair, this growing diversity is new to some. Maybe it's going to take a couple/few generations for adjustment to take place? As you say, some thrive in a pluralistic context and aren't threatened. But, as a whole, Christian communities might not be used to not being the dominate worldview. Maybe it's just going to take time, time to forget it was once perceived as a culture war and not a mission?

bèlla said:
flourish if you rely on others to stand. You must have the capacity to remain erect no matter what. You can’t be weak or dependent. Just because you’re a believer doesn’t mean you’re strong or mentally tough. I’ve never met a person who flourishes who lacked those traits.

This is an interesting point. The fear of diversity in some is palpable, and no doubt they feel the need for support. Perhaps we need more leaders with the strong characteristics to stand erect to help encourage the weaker members? It just seems that so many exhibit this fear of difference. What do you think?

Hazelelponi · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
God loves the world, i.e. John 3:16. How do you reconcile that with your position that you just don't care about

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

This is not, God loves the world in its sin, this is God is inviting mankind into a restored relationship with Him, through His Son.

public hermit said:
And if they don't accept Christ, are they no longer worthy of your care and concern?

Putting your own words in my mouth. I simply don't care what they DO... if they want to sin all day, it's not my business - I don't care...

Do I want a better world? Of course.. but I can't stop them either so what do you expect me to care for? Should I beat them over the head with my Bible?

That's different than not caring about their salvation, as I've already noted I care enough about that to share Christ with them.

Hazelelponi · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
diversity meaning not everyone is Christian, implies adversity.

I'm a former Muslim. Being Christian absolutely implies adversity.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
This is not, God loves the world in its sin, this is God is inviting mankind into a restored relationship with Him, through His Son.

Again, this not about compromise. This about figuring out how to work together for the common good, which we all share. If someone refuses to believe, or perhaps cannot believe, do we just throw up our hands and refuse to work together for the common good, if possible? Of course, not. The question is, how do we do that without compromising our faith?

Hazelelponi said:
Putting your own words in my mouth. I simply don't care what they DO... if they want to sin all day, it's not my business - I don't care...

Do I want a better world? Of course.. but I can't stop them either so what do you expect me to care for? Should I beat them over the head with my Bible?

That's different than not caring about their salvation, as I've already noted I care enough about that to share Christ with them

Okay, I definitely don't want to put words in your mouth.

The statement, "if they want to sin all day, it's not my business" is basically the sentiment of principle six, which says that people are not to be compelled against their desire into the faith. So, you agree with at least part of the OP.

I am wondering if perhaps you agree with more of the OP than your initial response indicates?

Hazelelponi · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
This about figuring out how to work together for the common good, which we all share

The problem as it is, is they aren't willing to work together WITH us for anything.

They desire us out of their way and silent, at best.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
I'm a former Muslim. Being Christian absolutely implies adversity.

I understand that, and was aware of that. But not every non-Christian is Muslim. Certainly in our context there are many different "kinds" of non-Christian. Not all of that diversity necessarily implies adversity, does it?

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
The problem as it is, is they aren't willing to work together WITH us for anything.

They desire us out of their way and silent, at best.

Why do you say this? I don't get this impression.

Hazelelponi · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
I understand that, and was aware of that. But not every non-Christian is Muslim. Certainly in our context there are many different "kinds" of non-Christian. Not all of that diversity necessarily implies adversity, does it?

Are you talking about the LGBTQ agenda, who specifically target Christian owned businesses in order to destroy them.

The atheists and others who year after year work on nothing but to chip away at every religious freedom we have.

The liberal left who wants to make lists of those who support policies that protect religious freedom, freedom of speech, protect our borders and more...

You mean those people? In Scotland they are worried about new hate speech laws so eroding religious freedom that Bibles could be confiscated because it says homosexuality is sin...?

How much longer here in the U.S.?

We aren't one big happy family... as much as your vision of some utopia desires it to be...

And according to Scripture, we never will be.

section9+1 · Nov 24, 2020

Christians have to function in the world. We are in it and that demands some compatibility. But we should at best be benevolently tolerated. If we fit well with the world and it embraces us, we are doing something wrong. I am on no mission to save the world. It has already been damned. We save people out of it and we remain out of it in spirit.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
Are you talking about the LGBTQ agenda, who specifically target Christian owned businesses in order to destroy them.

The atheists and others who year after year work on nothing but to chip away at every religious freedom we have.

The liberal left who wants to make lists of those who support policies that protect religious freedom, freedom of speech, protect our borders and more...

You mean those people? In Scotland they are worried about new hate speech laws so eroding religious freedom that Bibles could be confiscated because it says homosexuality is sin...?

How much longer here in the U.S.?

We aren't one big happy family... as much as your vision of some utopia desires it to be...

And according to Scripture, we never will be.

How much of what you've mentioned is directly related to Christians trying to use political power and force of law to compel and shape culture? Principles 4 and 6 indicate that such an approach is wrong headed.

The culture war is lost. Again, we live in a pluralistic culture and the modus operandi of using politics to shape culture has been disastrous. Isn't it time to regroup?

You are putting words in my mouth, now. The caricatures of "one big happy family" and "vision of utopia" are not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about figuring out a way to go forward, without compromising, in such a way that instead of shooting ourselves in the foot by playing politics and vying for power, we actually live the way of Christ in spite of adversity, and flourishing at it.

If you tell me I can't live the way of Christ, loving God and loving my neighbor, in a pluralistic context, while simultaneously working for the common good, and doing well at it, then we disagree on fundamental principles. But, as I mentioned, I don't think we disagree, despite your protests to the contrary. I just think you've confused your politics and faith.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

section9+1 said:
Christians have to function in the world. We are in it and that demands some compatibility. But we should at best be benevolently tolerated. If we fit well with the world and it embraces us, we are doing something wrong. I am on no mission to save the world. It has already been damned. We save people out of it and we remain out of it in spirit.

Living at peace and working for the common good does not mean we're doing something wrong. It means we reflect the love God has for the world, in spite of those who live contrary to God's will. God sends the rain and sunshine on all, and we reflect that.

You don't remain out of the world in practice. You share the same space, resources, time, etc. It's that common good that is of interest here.

Hazelelponi · Nov 24, 2020

public hermit said:
How much of what you've mentioned is directly related to Christians trying to use political power and force of law to compel and shape culture? Principles 4 and 6 indicate that such an approach is wrong headed.

The culture war is lost. Again, we live in a pluralistic culture and the modus operandi of using politics to shape culture has been disastrous. Isn't it time to regroup?

You are putting words in my mouth, now. The caricatures of "one big happy family" and "vision of utopia" are not what I'm referring to. I'm talking about figuring out a way to go forward, without compromising, in such a way that instead of shooting ourselves in the foot by playing politics and vying for power, we actually live the way of Christ in spite of adversity, and flourishing at it.

If you tell me I can't live the way of Christ, loving God and loving my neighbor, in a pluralistic context, while simultaneously working for the common good, and doing well at it, then we disagree on fundamental principles. But, as I mentioned, I don't think we disagree, despite your protests to the contrary. I just think you've confused your politics and faith.

The culture war was lost so if a Christian truly believes it's a sin on him to participate in a same sex marriage by designing and creating a wedding cake for one he should be denied the right to practice his faith?

What happened to your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins?

We won't always agree, and there are times when we must at times agree to disagree and move on in order to preserve everyone's rights...

But the left is 100% unwilling to do so, and they are waging war...

I won't compromise what I believe for anyone.

public hermit · Nov 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
The culture war was lost so if a Christian truly believes it's a sin on him to participate in a same sex marriage by designing and creating a wedding cake for one he should be denied the right to practice his faith?

What happened to your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins?

We won't always agree, and there are times when we must at times agree to disagree and move on in order to preserve everyone's rights...

But the left is 100% unwilling to do so, and they are waging war...

I won't compromise what I believe for anyone.

Yes, please don't compromise. I agree.

Now that we have that out of the way, how do we go forward in a pluralistic context working for the common good? Do you have any constructive thoughts on that or is it just impossible?

Christian flourishing in a pluralistic setting

Dragonsworn

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