Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

Aaron_Bethlhm · Nov 21, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
So is Satan bound (or partially bound, or restricted) right now, and has he been over these last 2,000 years?

Is this really a question ? (considering all the idolatry, savage murdering, slaughtering of/in many countries on many continents, massive pollution and hunger (on purpose?) causing over 6000 deaths per day ) ....
The first thing is God's Kingdom, not arguing over Greek or other words, according to the Bible.
The first thing, or what is known, is what God Reveals, as He Pleases, right ?

Aaron_Bethlhm · Nov 21, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
And we're all thankful for this since you've repeated the exact same words in your posts a thousand times already and I think that's enough. But not literally a thousand times.

Maybe literally ten thousand times. How many people , on purpose or on accident, read what is posted without ever knowing the reality , (not just here, but everywhere) ....
When a false statement is made on television, as happens daily, it is propagated to how many millions ?

ewq1938 · Nov 21, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
4. I pointed out that there is no such thing as a 'spiritual' resurrection in the New Testament - only a resurrection of the body:-

I can add this in support:

There's an issue with the whole "spiritual resurrection" in regard to being born again or going from being spiritually dead to spiritually alive because that isn't what a resurrection is.

A resurrection is when someone alive becomes dead and then becomes alive again. A resurrection is not when someone who was not alive but instead was dead all along and then becomes alive. That is just experiencing life for the first time. Anyone who was alive, then died, then resurrected has experienced a resurrection.

If a spiritually dead person accepts Christ and becomes spiritually alive, that isn't a resurrection because they had to have been alive, then dead, then alive again for a resurrection to have happened. This is somewhat similar to child birth/conception. They didn't exist but then are born and are alive. That isn't a resurrection but a first experience of life. So, a person who did not have Christ is spiritually dead but if they accept Christ they are spiritually alive for the first time and NO RESURRECTION took place.

The only way a spiritual resurrection can happen is when someone accepts Christ and becomes spiritually alive, then somehow becomes an Apostate and rejects Christ and goes back to being spiritually dead, and then re-accepts Christ and becomes spiritually alive a second time...thus is a resurrection since resurrection requires life-death-then life again.

Correct terminology is important here.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 22, 2020

ewq1938 said:
I can add this in support:

There's an issue with the whole "spiritual resurrection" in regard to being born again or going from being spiritually dead to spiritually alive because that isn't what a resurrection is.

A resurrection is when someone alive becomes dead and then becomes alive again. A resurrection is not when someone who was not alive but instead was dead all along and then becomes alive. That is just experiencing life for the first time. Anyone who was alive, then died, then resurrected has experienced a resurrection.

If a spiritually dead person accepts Christ and becomes spiritually alive, that isn't a resurrection because they had to have been alive, then dead, then alive again for a resurrection to have happened. This is somewhat similar to child birth/conception. They didn't exist but then are born and are alive. That isn't a resurrection but a first experience of life. So, a person who did not have Christ is spiritually dead but if they accept Christ they are spiritually alive for the first time and NO RESURRECTION took place.

The only way a spiritual resurrection can happen is when someone accepts Christ and becomes spiritually alive, then somehow becomes an Apostate and rejects Christ and goes back to being spiritually dead, and then re-accepts Christ and becomes spiritually alive a second time...thus is a resurrection since resurrection requires life-death-then life again.

Correct terminology is important here.

But what gets ignored is when Amils like myself explain that the first resurrection itself is Christ's bodily resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5, etc.), that gets ignored by premils.

Please read the following carefully: I believe that the first resurrection itself is Christ's resurrection. Please let that sink in. So, like you, I believe that the first resurrection is a bodily resurrection. The difference is that you believe the mass bodily resurrection of believers is the first resurrection while I believe that Christ's bodily resurrection itself is the first resurrection. The following passage clearly teaches that Christ's bodily resurrection is the first resurrection, so with that being the case, how can the resurrection of the dead in Christ when He returns be considered the first resurrection?

1 Cor 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Notice that Paul says there's an order to the resurrection of the dead, which we know is talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead unto bodily immortality. Christ's was first (the firstfruits). Next in turn is the resurrection of "those who belong to Him" which will occur "when He comes". That is a second bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality, not the first.

So, in my view, it doesn't matter if being spiritually raised from being dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ is considered a resurrection or not. You say it's a birth, not a resurrection. If you want to call going from dead to alive a birth, okay. That's not how it is with natural birth, but there's no reason to get bogged down with semantics here. Scripture does call that event being born again or born of the Spirit, so I'm fine with you seeing it that way. I don't care what you call that because that event is not the first resurrection itself. Instead, it's how we have part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection.

We spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection when we become spiritually alive in Christ and that is how I understand what it means to have part in the first resurrection. But, again, it is Christ's resurrection itself that is the first resurrection. It is not necessary to be bodily resurrected in order to have part in His resurrection.

The following passage explains how people spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection):

Romans 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

claninja · Nov 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
4. I pointed out that there is no such thing as a 'spiritual' resurrection in the New Testament - only a resurrection of the body:-

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed [ nâphach ] into his nostrils the breath [ neshâmâh ] of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]."

When Adam sinned, he died. The Spirit of God was no longer dwelling in him, so death entered into him:

John 3:7
"That which is born (γεννάω [gennáō]) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born (γεννάω gennáō) of the Spirit ( πνεῦμα [pneûma] ) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born (Greek: γεννάω [gennáō]) from above (Greek: ἄνωθεν [ánōthen]). "

I pointed out that the context of every single New Testament verse talking about "The Resurrection", or about being raised from the dead or rising again from the dead, is the resurrection of the body - never "resurrection" of soul or spirit.

I met with protest, so I spent hours listing all the New Testament verses talking about resurrection, and quoting the actual verses:-

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

Naturally, the 2nd death cannot take place before the resurrection from the dead of those who will suffer the 2nd death.

Though some Amils finally admitted that there are no New Testament verses talking about soul or spiritual "resurrection" (because they could not find any), yet they have simply ignored this fact, and continued to talk about 'spiritual' resurrection anyway, and continue to falsely claim that the souls who were beheaded in Revelation 20, who are seen living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, are those who were born again, and it's their 'spiritual' resurrection being referred to.

In order to uphold Amil, some Amils add more deaths and resurrections than the first death (Adam's death); and the first resurrection (the last Adam's resurrection); and the 2nd death (which can only come after the resurrection of those who will experience the 2nd death. They don't want to admit that the scriptures speak of mankind's death (through Adam), mankind's resurrection (through Christ, the last Adam), and the 2nd death - and no more.

They don't understand, and refuse to acknowledge that these theories that have developed about 'spiritual' resurrection etc, are the children of the original Amil theory, which keeps producing new theories to explain the anomalies in the Amil theory.

But Amils will merely continue to tell you you are wrong (often belligerently).

So I've given up.

You are correct that the greek word for physical resurrection (anastasis) is typically not used for believers who are born again. The greek word anastasis is typically used for the physical resurrection of the Body of Christ at his first advent and the righteous/unrighteous on the last day/in the age to come.

anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

A.) It refers to Christ's resurrection:

Acts 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection (anastasis) of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption

Acts 1:22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection (anastasis).

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection (anastasis) of Jesus Christ from the dead

B.) and the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous on the last day/in the age to come:

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection (anastasis) of both the just and the unjust.

Phillippians 3:10-11 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection (anastasis) from the dead.

Luke 20:35 But those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection(anastasis) from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage,

John 11:24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection (anastasis) on the last day.”

2.) It is the greek word sunegeiro that is used for believers being "raised (sunegeiro)" from moral death to new life.

συνεγείρω: 1 aorist συνηγειρα; 1 aorist passive συνηγερθην; to raise together, to cause to rise together; Vulg.conresuscito (alsoconresurgo, resurgo); (τά πεπτωκότα, 4 Macc. 2:14; passive, to rise together from their seats, Isaiah 14:9; tropically, λύπας καί θρηνους, Plutarch, mor., p. 117 c.); in the N. T. tropically, to raise up together from moral death (see θάνατος, 2) to a new and blessed life devoted to God: ἡμᾶς τῷ Χριστῷ (risen from the dead, because the ground of the new Christian life lies in Christ's resurrection),

a.) moral death to spiritual life
Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (sunegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

b.) moral death to spiritual life
colossians 2:12-13 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised (sunegeiro) with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses

c.) moral death to spiritual life.
Colossians 3:1 If then you have been raised (sunegeiro) with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

3.) So what is quite obvious, is the that the First resurrection (anastasis) is Jesus. He is the Firstborn of the dead and firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection (anastasis) and the life.

colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

1 corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

4.) Those that partake in Christ's resurrection (anastasis) are raised (sunegeiro) from spiritual death to a newness of life.

Luke 15:32 But it was fitting to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead (nekros) and is alive again (ezesen) ; he was lost and is found.’ ”

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (sunegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

colossians 2:12-13 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised (sunegeiro) with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses

5.) This being raised (sunegeiro) together by Christ's resurrection (anastasis) results in:

revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

a.) us being a kingdom of priests to God in this present reality:

1 peter 2:5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

b.) the 2nd death never hurting us in this present reality:

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.d Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

1 John 5:4-5 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Timtofly · Nov 22, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
But what gets ignored is when Amils like myself explain that the first resurrection itself is Christ's bodily resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Rev 1:5, etc.), that gets ignored by premils.

Please read the following carefully: I believe that the first resurrection itself is Christ's resurrection. Please let that sink in. So, like you, I believe that the first resurrection is a bodily resurrection. The difference is that you believe the mass bodily resurrection of believers is the first resurrection while I believe that Christ's bodily resurrection itself is the first resurrection. The following passage clearly teaches that Christ's bodily resurrection is the first resurrection, so with that being the case, how can the resurrection of the dead in Christ when He returns be considered the first resurrection?

1 Cor 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Notice that Paul says there's an order to the resurrection of the dead, which we know is talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead unto bodily immortality. Christ's was first (the firstfruits). Next in turn is the resurrection of "those who belong to Him" which will occur "when He comes". That is a second bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality, not the first.

So, in my view, it doesn't matter if being spiritually raised from being dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ is considered a resurrection or not. You say it's a birth, not a resurrection. If you want to call going from dead to alive a birth, okay. That's not how it is with natural birth, but there's no reason to get bogged down with semantics here. Scripture does call that event being born again or born of the Spirit, so I'm fine with you seeing it that way. I don't care what you call that because that event is not the first resurrection itself. Instead, it's how we have part in the first resurrection, which was Christ's resurrection.

We spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection when we become spiritually alive in Christ and that is how I understand what it means to have part in the first resurrection. But, again, it is Christ's resurrection itself that is the first resurrection. It is not necessary to be bodily resurrected in order to have part in His resurrection.

The following passage explains how people spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection (the first resurrection):

Romans 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

And then when I as a pre-mill accept that, and claim every time a person in Christ goes from one body to the permanent one it is because of that resurrection, you also deny the power of the first resurrection in Christ. What has been accomplished in 30AD is an ongoing phenomenon.

Those in Abraham's bosom had to wait 4000 years to enter that heavenly Jerusalem in full permanent body form. Now you all claim they have to wait another 2000 years, cause the first resurrection failed them.

Paul in 2 Corinthians 5 clearly states that because of Christ the dead no longer wait in their graves, but are bodily present in Paradise. What they are waiting for now is the return of the spirit of God, the robe of white. When Christ presents the church whole and glorified to God on the throne. This is the 6th seal.

The spiritual birth is accepted by us in place of our own works and filthy righteousness. This birth is only realized physically at physical death. Yes the Holy Spirit fills us with God in the physical, but only as credit until physical death is realized.

Aaron_Bethlhm · Nov 22, 2020

Timtofly said:
Those in Abraham's bosom had to wait 4000 years to enter that heavenly Jerusalem in full permanent body form. Now you all claim they have to wait another 2000 years, cause the first resurrection failed them.

When they closed their eyes, in death or in sleep,
then
are resurrected either to eternal life in Christ Jesus,
or to judgment,
the time they were in the grave does not feel at all as if it was more than an instant, does it ?

Zao is life · Nov 22, 2020

claninja said:
2.) It is the greek word sunegeiro that is used for believers being "raised (sunegeiro)" from moral death to new life.
Edit
συνεγείρω: 1 aorist συνηγειρα; 1 aorist passive συνηγερθην; to raise together, to cause to rise together; Vulg.conresuscito (alsoconresurgo, resurgo); (τά πεπτωκότα, 4 Macc. 2:14; passive, to rise together from their seats, Isaiah 14:9; tropically, λύπας καί θρηνους, Plutarch, mor., p. 117 c.); in the N. T. tropically, to raise up together from moral death (see θάνατος, 2) to a new and blessed life devoted to God: ἡμᾶς τῷ Χριστῷ (risen from the dead, because the ground of the new Christian life lies in Christ's resurrection),

a.) moral death to spiritual life
Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (sunegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

1 John 5:4-5 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Thanks for your reply, Claninja.

I don't want to continue to debate Pre-mill vs A-mil because I closed off my arguments. I just want to point out that the word is spelled synegeírō, not sunegeiro (sunegeiro is the way it is pronounced), and it refers to being raised from physical death in company with Christ's resurrection from physical death, by virtue of our spiritual birth.

It's the same prefix in synegeírō that we get in words like synthesis and synchronize:

συνεγείρω SUNEGEI/RW synegeírō soon-eg-i'-ro Strong's Greek 04891:
to rouse (from death) in company with, i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

We are not raised from spiritual death to spiritual life - by virtue of our spiritual birth we are raised from physical death in company with Christ's resurrection from death:

1 John 5:4-5 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The implication in what you say regarding so-called 'spiritual resurrection from spiritual death' is that John said that everyone who has been "spiritually raised from the dead" overcomes the world (because there is no such thing anywhere in the New Testament as being 'spiritually raised from death' - there is only such a thing as being spiritually born of God).

It's by virtue of the fact that when we are born of God by the Spirit of Christ, this is what results:

John 14:20
At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

Christ is in us because we are spiritually born of His Spirit. Therefore we are raised from physical death with Him because we have been baptized into His death through spiritual birth by His Spirit, and we are raised from physical death with (synegeírō) Him:

a.) Adam's death to resurrection from physical death (through spiritual birth by the Spirit who is the Father of the last Adam)
Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (synegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:10-11
"And if Christ is in you, indeed the body [σῶμα sōma] is dead because of sin, but the Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] is life because of (Christ's) righteousness. But if the Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] of the One who raised up [ἐγείρω egeírō] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up [ἐγείρω egeírō] Christ from the dead shall also vitalize [ζωοποιέωby zōopoiéō] your mortal [θνητός thnētós] bodies [σῶμα sōma] by His Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] who dwells in you."

Adam's death = mankind's death. The first Adam died, physically because the Spirit of God no longer was indwelling in Him. This is why we must be born from above (it's not "spiritual resurrection" as though we had been born spiritually alive, had lived and died spiritually, so that we can be raised spiritually). The last Adam died physically (His body died) and Hi's resurrection from physical death = mankind's resurrection from physical death. Those who are born of the Spirit have been raised from physical death with Christ and will be raised from physical death when we receive the adoption, to wit, of our own mortal bodies.

'Spiritual resurrection' is a fallacy that does not come up anywhere in the New Testament. There is no such thing as "moral death to spiritual life" in the New Testament:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

I hope you will be able to accept that we will continue to disagree and I don't want to debate it any longer. I can see that the New Testament is not talking about a 'spiritual' resurrection from 'spiritual death' anywhere and that interpreting the verses you quoted in that way is a very old misinterpretation of the scriptures in that regard which has permeated the understanding and thinking of the Church for a long time. It's not a sin to be under the illusion of 'spiritual' resurrection but it does not mean that because I know the verses talking about being raised with Christ are not talking about 'spiritual' resurrection, there's no point in me continuing to debate someone who has misinterpreted the scriptures - and besides, you and I have been through the debate already in another thread.

Keep well. Have a blessed week ahead.

Davy · Nov 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Thanks for your reply, Claninja.

I don't want to continue to debate Pre-mill vs A-mil because I closed off my arguments. I just want to point out that the word is spelled synegeírō, not sunegeiro (sunegeiro is the way it is pronounced), and it refers to being raised from physical death in company with Christ's resurrection from physical death, by virtue of our spiritual birth.

It's the same prefix in synegeírō that we get in words like synthesis and synchronize:

συνεγείρω SUNEGEI/RW synegeírō soon-eg-i'-ro Strong's Greek 04891:
to rouse (from death) in company with, i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

We are not raised from spiritual death to spiritual life - by virtue of our spiritual birth we are raised from physical death in company with Christ's resurrection from death:

1 John 5:4-5 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

The implication in what you say regarding so-called 'spiritual resurrection from spiritual death' is that John said that everyone who has been "spiritually raised from the dead" overcomes the world (because there is no such thing anywhere in the New Testament as being 'spiritually raised from death' - there is only such a thing as being spiritually born of God).

It's by virtue of the fact that when we are born of God by the Spirit of Christ, this is what results:

John 14:20
At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

John 15:4
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

Christ is in us because we are spiritually born of His Spirit. Therefore we are raised from physical death with Him because we have been baptized into His death through spiritual birth by His Spirit, and we are raised from physical death with (synegeírō) Him:

a.) Adam's death to resurrection from physical death (through spiritual birth by the Spirit who is the Father of the last Adam)
Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (synegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

View attachment 289201

Romans 8:10-11
"And if Christ is in you, indeed the body [σῶμα sōma] is dead because of sin, but the Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] is life because of (Christ's) righteousness. But if the Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] of the One who raised up [ἐγείρω egeírō] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up [ἐγείρω egeírō] Christ from the dead shall also vitalize [ζωοποιέωby zōopoiéō] your mortal [θνητός thnētós] bodies [σῶμα sōma] by His Spirit [πνεῦμα pneûma] who dwells in you."

Adam's death = mankind's death. The first Adam died, physically because the Spirit of God no longer was indwelling in Him. This is why we must be born from above (it's not "spiritual resurrection" as though we had been born spiritually alive, had lived and died spiritually, so that we can be raised spiritually). The last Adam died physically (His body died) and Hi's resurrection from physical death = mankind's resurrection from physical death. Those who are born of the Spirit have been raised from physical death with Christ and will be raised from physical death when we receive the adoption, to wit, of our own mortal bodies.

'Spiritual resurrection' is a fallacy that does not come up anywhere in the New Testament. There is no such thing as "moral death to spiritual life" in the New Testament:

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses

What you are suggesting is that the coming resurrection is to a new flesh body. That is false, and not what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 at all. Your exposition into the Greek is not enough to prove your point either, especially when Scripture exists to directly counter it, like the following...

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

The "this mortal" part that Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Corinthians 15:53 is about one's 'soul'. In Matthew 10:28, Lord Jesus showed to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul, but to fear Him Who can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire. What body goes into the future lake of fire? Not a flesh one. The "second death" involves the destruction of one's spirit with soul, for those two parts are hard-linked together, as shown in Eccl.12:5-7 and Matt.10:28 and Matt.22:30 and 2 Cor.5. Thus the specific 'body' of Romans 8 where you quoted that Paul was pointing to is about the future "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15.

1 Corinthians 15:53 has 4 different Greek words, each applying to 2 different states of existence:

"corruptible" = flesh body outward likeness of today's world on earth.
"incorruption" = Paul's "spiritual body", the body image of the resurrection.
"this mortal" = a liable to die soul, those still subject to the "second death" after Christ's return.
"immortality" = only those in Christ Jesus, their souls being made immortal through Faith on Jesus.

Zao is life · Nov 22, 2020

Davy said:
What you are suggesting is that the coming resurrection is to a new flesh body.

What is false is your statement.

Our resurrection from death is part of Christ's, who is the last Adam, and who IS the resurrection and the life. As a result our fleshly, mortal bodies are sown natural bodies when we die (sown into the earth) but will be raised spiritual bodies, our bodies are sown in corruption but raised in glory.

It's all in Christ, and part of His resurrection. He is the last Adam, the son of Man. Our resurrection takes place (a) by virtue of our being born of His Spirit; and (b) with His resurrection (synegeírō). He is the first-born of many brethren.

"And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things." Col 1:17-18

Davy · Nov 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
What is false is your statement.

Our resurrection from death is part of Christ's, who is the last Adam, and who IS the resurrection and the life. As a result our fleshly, mortal bodies are sown natural bodies when we die (sown into the earth) but will be raised spiritual bodies, our bodies are sown in corruption but raised in glory.

Yes, we will have "spiritual bodies", is what Apostle Paul taught for the resurrection per 1 Cor.15, which is what I said. The "spiritual body" is indeed a 'body', but it is not one of flesh, as Paul also declared there that flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

It's all in Christ, and part of His resurrection. He is the last Adam, the son of Man. Our resurrection takes place (a) by virtue of our being born of His Spirit; and (b) with His resurrection. He is the first-born of many brethren.

And Paul declared in 1 Cor.15 that the "last Adam" was made a "quickening spirit". That's about our Lord Jesus and His flesh body eventually being transfigured to a spirit body, which is the image of the heavenly. The difference with His spirit body is that it retained the marks of His crucifixion as a remembrance for what He did for us for all time.

Zao is life · Nov 22, 2020

Davy said:
Yes, we will have "spiritual bodies", is what Apostle Paul taught for the resurrection per 1 Cor.15, which is what I said. The "spiritual body" is indeed a 'body', but it is not one of flesh, as Paul also declared there that flesh and bones cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

And Paul declared in 1 Cor.15 that the "last Adam" was made a "quickening spirit". That's about our Lord Jesus and His flesh body eventually being transfigured to a spirit body, which is the image of the heavenly. The difference with His spirit body is that it retained the marks of His crucifixion as a remembrance for what He did for us for all time.

The last Adam died. His body was dead. By the Spirit He preached to the spirits in prison when His soul went to hades. His body was dead and in a tomb while His soul in hades was preaching by the Spirit to the spirits in hades. Spirit is of God and does not die.

The first Adam had a body and a soul. The Spirit of God breathed life into the first Adam and he became a living soul.

We are not quickened by the first Adam's 'spiritual resurrection' (because there is no such thing): we are quickened by the Spirit of God through our spiritual birth into the last Adam, when we are born of God. Jesus told us that unless we are born of God we cannot see the Kingdom of heaven- He did not say unless we are "spiritually resurrected" we cannot see the Kingdom of heaven:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed [ nâphach ] into his nostrils the breath [ neshâmâh ] of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]." Gen 2:7

"Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is [γεννάω gennáō] born [ἄνωθεν ánōthen] from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be [gennáō] born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be [gennáō] born?
Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is [gennáō] born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is [gennáō] born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is [gennáō] born of the Spirit is spirit.
Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be [gennáō] born [ánōthen] from above.
The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is [gennáō] born of the Spirit." John 3:3-8

The Spirit of Christ is in those who are born of God. He IS the resurrection and the life because He, the last Adam, rose from the dead. The Greek word egeírō refers to the resurrection of the body in every single New Testament verse it is found in. The word synegeírō refers to the fact that we are raised with Christ. He was not 'spiritually resurrected' from the dead. He was raised from the dead by the Spirit - the same Spirit by whom He preached to the spirits in prison in His physical death. He rose again in His body. The tomb was empty.

The moment Adam sinned, death came to all men. The moment Adam sinned, he died. It does not matter how long it took for him to physically die. He died the moment he sinned. The last Adam rose bodily from the dead. The moment He rose bodily from the dead, the resurrection from the dead came to Adam (mankind), and just as it does not matter how long it took for Adam to physically die when death came into him, it does not matter how long it takes for our bodies to be resurrected - because the last Adam (Christ) has already been resurrected from the dead:

"And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things." Col 1:17-18

Our quickening by Christ is a result of our spiritual birth by His Spirit. Likewise, our resurrection from physical death is a result of His resurrection and our quickening by His Spirit. He is the last Adam. He is in you and you are IN Him. You have already been raised with (synegeírō) Christ.

So far, there has been only one death and one resurrection - the first Adam's death, and the last Adam's resurrection from the dead. Both the first Adam and the last Adam represent all mankind - Adam in death, and the last Adam in the resurrection from the dead.

There will be a second death when death and hades deliver up the dead in them at the GWT and those not found in the Lamb's book of Life (who had not been born of His Spirit) are thrown with death and hades into the LOF.

Te first death to come to all mankind is also the only death so far - the first Adam's death. The first resurrection to come to all mankind is also the only resurrection from death - the last Adam's resurrection from death:

"But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." Rev 20:5-6

They have part in the first resurrection because they are raised with (synegeírō) Christ, having been quickened through spiritual birth and been joined with Christ, the last Adam.

The first Adam died, and death came to all mankind. Mankind was not 'spiritually resurrected from death' through the resurrection from the dead of the first Adam. We have to be born of the Spirit to be spiritually alive, and raised from the dead bodily with the last Adam.

I had to edit a few times because I get tongue-tied trying to explain this.

claninja · Nov 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Thanks for your reply, Claninja.

I don't want to continue to debate Pre-mill vs A-mil because I closed off my arguments. I just want to point out that the word is spelled synegeírō, not sunegeiro (sunegeiro is the way it is pronounced), and it refers to being raised from physical death in company with Christ's resurrection from physical death, by virtue of our spiritual birth.

I am aware, as that was my intention. I posted the transliteration for both sunegeiro and anastasis.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The implication in what you say regarding so-called 'spiritual resurrection from spiritual death' is that John said that everyone who has been "spiritually raised from the dead" overcomes the world (because there is no such thing anywhere in the New Testament as being 'spiritually raised from death' - there is only such a thing as being spiritually born of God).

Spiritually raised from physical death, no that is not mentioned, I agree with you.

But being raised from death in our trespasses, yes, that is found in the NT.

As shown below Sungeiro is figurative and spiritual.

συνεγείρω SUNEGEI/RW synegeírō soon-eg-i'-ro Strong's Greek 04891:
to rouse (from death) in company with, i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

Paul calls it being RAISED (sunegeiro) from being DEAD (nekros) in our sins.

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (sunegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Our baptism is symbolic for being baptized into His death, IN ORDER THAT JUST AS Christ was raised from the dead, so too we walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Jesus calls "being lost" as being dead, and returning to the Father as "being alive"

Luke 15:32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead (nekros), and is alive (ezesen); he was lost, and is found.’”

Therefore, the implication is that being born from above = being raised together with Christ from being dead in our sins = being baptized in his death in order to be raised with him to walk in newness of life. This, along with the Spirit, guarantees the 2nd death can no longer hurt us and our future physical resurrection from the dead.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Christ is in us because we are spiritually born of His Spirit. Therefore we are raised from physical death with Him because we have been baptized into His death through spiritual birth by His Spirit, and we are raised from physical death with (synegeírō) Him:

When we are baptized into Christ's death and raised from being dead in our trespasses to walk in the newness of the life, we are not raised from physical death (resurrection; anastasis) at that same time, otherwise Christians wouldn't be facing physical death. However, we still do.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
'Spiritual resurrection' is a fallacy that does not come up anywhere in the New Testament. There is no such thing as "moral death to spiritual life" in the New Testament:

Just as the term "spiritual resurrection" is not found in the NT, neither is the term "spiritual birth".

While the specific term:"moral death to spiritual life" is not found in the NT, the concept is:

Luke 15:32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead (nekros), and is alive (ezesen); he was lost, and is found.’”

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (sunegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

While the specific term "spiritual birth" is not found in the NT, the concept is:

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born from above"

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I hope you will be able to accept that we will continue to disagree and I don't want to debate it any longer. I can see that the New Testament is not talking about a 'spiritual' resurrection from 'spiritual death' anywhere and that interpreting the verses you quoted in that way is a very old misinterpretation of the scriptures in that regard which has permeated the understanding and thinking of the Church for a long time. It's not a sin to be under the illusion of 'spiritual' resurrection but it does not mean that because I know the verses talking about being raised with Christ are not talking about 'spiritual' resurrection, there's no point in me continuing to debate someone who has misinterpreted the scriptures - and besides, you and I have been through the debate already in another thread.

What does it mean to be dead in our trespasses?

What does is it mean for the prodigal son to be dead?

Zao is life · Nov 22, 2020

claninja said:
I am aware, as that was my intention. I posted the transliteration for both sunegeiro and anastasis.

Spiritually raised from physical death, no that is not mentioned, I agree with you.

But being raised from death in our trespasses, yes, that is found in the NT.

As shown below Sungeiro is figurative and spiritual.

συνεγείρω SUNEGEI/RW synegeírō soon-eg-i'-ro Strong's Greek 04891:
to rouse (from death) in company with, i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

Paul calls it being RAISED (sunegeiro) from being DEAD (nekros) in our sins.

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (sunegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Our baptism is symbolic for being baptized into His death, IN ORDER THAT JUST AS Christ was raised from the dead, so too we walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Jesus calls "being lost" as being dead, and returning to the Father as "being alive"

Luke 15:32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead (nekros), and is alive (ezesen); he was lost, and is found.’”

Therefore, the implication is that being born from above = being raised together with Christ from being dead in our sins = being baptized in his death in order to be raised with him to walk in newness of life. This, along with the Spirit, guarantees the 2nd death can no longer hurt us and our future physical resurrection from the dead.

When we are baptized into Christ's death and raised from being dead in our trespasses to walk in the newness of the life, we are not raised from physical death (resurrection; anastasis) at that same time, otherwise Christians wouldn't be facing physical death. However, we still do.

Just as the term "spiritual resurrection" is not found in the NT, neither is the term "spiritual birth".

While the specific term:"moral death to spiritual life" is not found in the NT, the concept is:

Luke 15:32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead (nekros), and is alive (ezesen); he was lost, and is found.’”

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (sunegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

While the specific term "spiritual birth" is not found in the NT, the concept is:

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born from above"

What does it mean to be dead in our trespasses?

What does is it mean for the prodigal son to be dead?

I hear what you are saying. I really do. But there are reasons (obviously) why I still disagree with you. I just posted the best explanation I'm capable of giving for my views in Post #1492. Please read all of it. It probably won't get you to agree with me, but at least it will help you to understand why I disagree with you - and my disagreement with what you are saying is only partial. If you read post #1492 even past the parts you disagree with, right to the end of the post, you will understand where I'm coming from. To me, the difference between your view and mine is not just a case of semantics, although to many others it is just a case of semantics, and to many I'm making a great hoo-hah about nothing.

claninja · Nov 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I hear what you are saying. I really do. But there are reasons (obviously) why I still disagree with you. I just posted the best explanation I'm capable of giving for my views in Post #1492. Please read all of it. It probably won't get you to agree with me, but at least it will help you to understand why I disagree with you - and my disagreement with what you are saying is only partial. If you read post #1492 even past the parts you disagree with, right to the end of the post, you will understand where I'm coming from. To me, the difference between your view and mine is not just a case of semantics, although to many others it is just a case of semantics, and to many I'm making a great hoo-hah about nothing.

Thanks for the response. I Think the best way you could help me understand is by explaining what you believe it means:

1.) to be “dead” in your sin

2.) for the prodigal son to be “dead”

Davy · Nov 22, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The last Adam died. His body was dead. By the Spirit He preached to the spirits in prison when His soul went to hades. His body was dead and in a tomb while His soul in hades was preaching by the Spirit to the spirits in hades. Spirit is of God and does not die.

You are reading it wrong. It was the "first Adam" that died which represents our flesh. You have to keep to the context...

1 Cor 15:44-46
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
KJV

"first Adam" = "that which is natural", pointing to the flesh.
"last Adam" = "afterward that which is spiritual", "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit".

The "last Adam" being made a quickening spirit" represents Christ's tranfiguration of His flesh body to the resurrection spiritual body. I guarantee you (somehow), our Lord Jesus is not in a flesh body sitting next to The Father in Heaven today. His body was transfigured. The asleep saints won't be. It is their spiritual body that is manifest. Haven't you ever read what happens at flesh death per Ecclesiastes 12:5-7?

Davy · Nov 22, 2020

claninja said:
I am aware, as that was my intention. I posted the transliteration for both sunegeiro and anastasis.

Spiritually raised from physical death, no that is not mentioned, I agree with you.

But being raised from death in our trespasses, yes, that is found in the NT.

As shown below Sungeiro is figurative and spiritual.

συνεγείρω SUNEGEI/RW synegeírō soon-eg-i'-ro Strong's Greek 04891:
to rouse (from death) in company with, i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

Paul calls it being RAISED (sunegeiro) from being DEAD (nekros) in our sins.

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (sunegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Our baptism is symbolic for being baptized into His death, IN ORDER THAT JUST AS Christ was raised from the dead, so too we walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3-4 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Jesus calls "being lost" as being dead, and returning to the Father as "being alive"

Luke 15:32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead (nekros), and is alive (ezesen); he was lost, and is found.’”

Therefore, the implication is that being born from above = being raised together with Christ from being dead in our sins = being baptized in his death in order to be raised with him to walk in newness of life. This, along with the Spirit, guarantees the 2nd death can no longer hurt us and our future physical resurrection from the dead.

When we are baptized into Christ's death and raised from being dead in our trespasses to walk in the newness of the life, we are not raised from physical death (resurrection; anastasis) at that same time, otherwise Christians wouldn't be facing physical death. However, we still do.

Just as the term "spiritual resurrection" is not found in the NT, neither is the term "spiritual birth".

While the specific term:"moral death to spiritual life" is not found in the NT, the concept is:

Luke 15:32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead (nekros), and is alive (ezesen); he was lost, and is found.’”

Ephesians 2:5-10 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised (sunegeiro) us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

While the specific term "spiritual birth" is not found in the NT, the concept is:

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born from above"

What does it mean to be dead in our trespasses?

What does is it mean for the prodigal son to be dead?

Much of that is confusion against Apostle Paul's Message. Apostle Paul NEVER pointed to the resurrection being one of FLESH.

1 Cor 15:42-51
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV

2 Cor 5:1-8
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
KJV

The idea that the resurrection body is to another flesh body is an old tradition of the Jews. They are the ones who cannot seem to understand the different operations between this flesh world and that of the world to come of the heavenly.

Timtofly · Nov 23, 2020

Aaron_Bethlhm said:
When they closed their eyes, in death or in sleep,
then
are resurrected either to eternal life in Christ Jesus,
or to judgment,
the time they were in the grave does not feel at all as if it was more than an instant, does it ?

It depends on if you think Jesus describes Abraham's bosom with Abraham talking to many souls, even those in sheol.

Are we not in Christ in Paradise when we die? Jesus told the thief he would bodily be in Paradise that day. The thief was bodily with God that day. Jesus Christ had a body from God, after He ascended to God, that Mary could not touch until Jesus received that body, and Thomas believed only because he did touch that touchable body. Those who left Abraham's bosom were given that permanent body, and it happens each time one in Christ physically dies. That applies to the church.

Now your version applies to the sheep and wheat of the final harvest gathered by Jesus the Lamb and the 144k. When chosen the angel transports the soul through time to the resurrection in Revelation 20:4. Even those beheaded for refusing the mark will be transported through time to the same resurrection. These souls are judged and given incorruptible bodies, that can never die again ever. So yes they blinked and it happened immediately for them.

Those in Christ move from this earthly body immediately to Paradise with Christ in a permanent body. The same incorruptible body, but in Paradise. In Paradise there is no procreation of more offspring.

Timtofly · Nov 23, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
The moment Adam sinned, death came to all men. The moment Adam sinned, he died. It does not matter how long it took for him to physically die. He died the moment he sinned.

Adam went from an immortal incorruptible body to a mortal corruptible body. His incorruptible body did die, and was replaced by a corruptible body. His immortal spirit left and went to be with God. He was left as a mortal soul without God's presence wrapped around him as a robe of white. Adam died physically and spiritually in reverse form, as we will one day be completely restored in Christ both an incorruptible body and the immortal spirit of God wrapping around us as a robe of white. The physical body was returned in Paradise to all in Abraham's bosom at the Cross and ascension on Sunday, after Mary talked to Jesus in the garden.

The incorruptible body is given to all at physical death, so they can enter Paradise. The robe of white is given to those in Paradise (all those covered by the Atonement as symbolized by being "under the alter") in the opening of the 5th seal and immediately followed by the 6th seal, those alive and remain will be changed both physically and spiritually mid air. The incorruptible body and the immortality of God's spirit like a robe of white. This is the completion of the reverse condition between being created as a son of God, and ending up with sinful human flesh.

Put this way, the soul is seen in heaven, but the soul is not the only thing seen in heaven. Saying soul, just means "you" without calling you by name. You are not your body, so John saying I saw bodies in heaven does not make sense. The "souls of them" is proper. The bodies of them is not describing who but their form. It is proper to say, "I see John over there". As opposed to, "I see that ugly fat dude over there". Especially if that is the only true shape the body is in. You would not correct that embarrassing thought with, "I see that body over there". It is plausible to see a soul over there, even though a body is obviously what can be seen.

Zao is life · Nov 23, 2020

claninja said:
Thanks for the response. I Think the best way you could help me understand is by explaining what you believe it means:

1.) to be “dead” in your sin

2.) for the prodigal son to be “dead”

Adam's death has come to all men. All men are sons of Adam, including the prodigal son. The last Adam's resurrection from the dead comes to us through spiritual birth from above. The prodigal son parable does not change the facts of scripture: the prodigal son parable does not mean (not even for one second) that the prodigal son had been spiritually alive, had died spiritually, and was "resurrected from the dead spiritually". The prodigal son needs to be born of the Spirit from above like all people who are born of the flesh into Adam & into Adam's death.

The only way anyone can be delivered from this death (Adam's death) is through spiritual birth from above, being born of the Spirit, and as a result being resurrected with Christ, the last Adam's, resurrection. That's the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, who said,

"Unless a man is [γεννάω gennáō] born [ἄνωθεν ánōthen] from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

No man will see the Kingdom of God without being born of the Spirit of God. It is a prerequisite to the resurrection of the body from the dead - and it is the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing will ever change that. The theology of no man will ever change it.

PS: I believe the prodigal son quite possibly (I've used the word possibly) refers prophetically to the Jews returning to God through repentance and faith in Jesus, and I believe in the possibility that the brother who was annoyed because he had served his father all this time and yet no banquet was made in his honor, is possibly a prophetic reference to the Gentiles.

Nevertheless, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught us all that the prodigal son cannot become alive except through spiritual birth from above, which results in being raised with Christ's resurrection, and no man's theology will ever change that. It's is Christ's resurrection that causes men, through spiritual birth from above, to be synegeírō - resurrected with Christ.

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

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