Calvinism and Abortion

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

Yep, and you take this as a defense of a Calvinistic tactic of speaking in mysteries (that helps nobody), when I can simply figure out what you believe by a deep investigation on my own of what you believe.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I believe in the a Orthodox understanding of Ancestral Sin. That we have received Adam’s sinful nature but not the guilt of his sin. Each man will be judged according to his deeds.

So then Jesus did not need to die on the cross and raise from the dead. God could just kill those souls in whom He knows will be faithful when they are babies. This is why it is so essential that Jesus came. He is the Savior of the whole world, including babies. For if Jesus did not die for mankind, we would all be doomed. Granted, I don't think that was not going to happen, but the point here is that Jesus saves, and not ourselves alone.
 
Upvote 0

Isilwen

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2019
3,741
2,788
Florida
✟161,599.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Democrat
All are spiritually blind and can only worship idols they assign Jesus' name to.

Only those whom God gives a new heart to can see the true Christ.

According to your theology. I will keep saying this over and over.
 
Upvote 0

Yesha

Westminster Standards
Jun 25, 2007
231
54
Connecticut
✟24,501.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
“Whom He foreknew”, not “what He foreknew ppl would do”. Foreknew in the Greek is a verb, meaning God did something when He foreknew them, i.e. elected them.

Great post my Brother.

The three times in Scripture that I identify the word for "foreknow" being used by God as subject, he foreknows the elect (Rom. 8:29), "his people" (Rom. 11:2), and Christ (1 Pet. 1:20). In each case the object of God's foreknowing is personal rather than factual.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I believe in the a Orthodox understanding of Ancestral Sin. That we have received Adam’s sinful nature but not the guilt of his sin. Each man will be judged according to his deeds.

Also, ask yourself, brother, “How can sin enter the world through one man (Adam) according to Romans 5:12 if it was Eve who first sinned?”
 
Upvote 0

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,222
2,617
✟886,360.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Also, ask yourself, brother, “How can sin enter the world through one man (Adam) according to Romans 5:12 if it was Eve who first sinned?”

Interesting question! The sinful nature inherited through the male gender? How do you understand it?
 
Upvote 0

Yesha

Westminster Standards
Jun 25, 2007
231
54
Connecticut
✟24,501.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Married
I imagine a person can justify axe murdering by isolating certain verses at the expense of other verses that condemn murder. But that would not be reading the Bible in harmony. Romans 8:28-30 is not an exhaustive truth claim that ALL who are predestined will be glorified in the end. The passage makes no such claim. In fact, I highlighted the word “might” in the passage you quoted to me to show you that such a thing is not a 100% proof claim that those who are predestined will always be glorified.

Friend, I believe that it is! And to our encouragement! The golden chain of redemption tells us that the redemptive work of the triune God began in eternity past and is worked out in time unto eternity future.

Notice how Paul begins Romans 8:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. - Rom. 8:1 (ESV)

We are freed from the bondage of sin and the penalty of death through Jesus Christ. Paul goes on to exclaim:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. - Rom. 8:28 (ESV)

We have peace and security that everything that the Lord works in our life is for our good, even the sufferings (Rom. 8:18). Then Paul demonstrates the certainty of our salvation in the next two verses:

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Rom. 8:29-30 (ESV)

What God determined in eternity past (foreknowing, predestining), he accomplishes in time (calling, justification) unto eternity future (glorification). The golden chain cannot be broken, meaning that each action applies to the elect all the way though. "Foreknew", "predestined", "called", "justified", and "glorified" each apply to the "those" at the beginning of Romans 8:29. Breaking the chain creates serious theological problems such as some who are justified not being glorified.

In addition: You have to take into account Matthew 13:41-42.

In this passage it says that the Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things that offend (i.e. the word “offend” here is in reference to those who “offend” or make children to sin as mentioned by Jesus elsewhere) and those who work iniquity or lawlessness (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

In other words, a believer can be in the Kingdom and even be saved at one point in time, but they can later be cast out of Christ's kingdom on account of their justifying sin or a belief that makes room for a person to justify sin on some level. How scary that day of judgment will be for those who did not heed the words of Christ. For Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that if any soul who does not hear that prophet (i.e. Jesus), they shall be destroyed. This even includes me, as well. For I am not above God's Word anymore than you are.

I believe that Matthew 13:36-43 is foretelling the day of judgment.

The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. - Matt. 13:38-39 (ESV)

The passage you quoted does not imply that "sons of the kingdom" (true believers) can "later be cast out of Christ's kingdom". It is speaking of the "sons of the evil one" (unbelievers) who are judged unworthy of the kingdom and cast into hell.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,625
7,387
Dallas
✟889,094.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So then Jesus did not need to die on the cross and raise from the dead. God could just kill those souls in whom He knows will be faithful when they are babies. This is why it is so essential that Jesus came. He is the Savior of the whole world, including babies. For if Jesus did not die for mankind, we would all be doomed. Granted, I don't think that was not going to happen, but the point here is that Jesus saves, and not ourselves alone.

Ive been thinking long and hard about what you’ve said here and I don’t believe that is the case in this situation. God can raise souls from stones if He wanted to but evidently that wasn’t His plan. The same can be said about God killing babies that will be faithful. Yeah He could do that. Remember it was His plan in the first place that Christ would take away our sins. I’m not certain that was the only way God could possibly achieve this I’m just certain that it is the way He has planned to achieve this. Furthermore Jesus didn’t come to save the righteous He came to save the sinners. I’m not sure unborn babies fall into the category of sinners. I think it’s possible that they may need Christ to atone for their sinful nature so that they are no longer a slave to sin. As far as Christ coming to save the world I’m not certain that unborn babies have entered the world yet. They have no perception of the outside world nor any influence from it. As for all of us being doomed without Christ’s atonement that goes back to those who are sinners not those who are righteous. I think Romans 9:11 holds some weight in this particular situation because it is one of the few verses that mentions this situation. I’m sure someone will quote Psalms 51:5 but I’d like to point out that this is most likely referring to the sins of David’s parents at his conception. It seems pretty impossible to me for anyone to sin while the sperm hasn’t even reached the egg yet. I can’t imagine being capable of breaking any of God’s commandments on a cellular level. I’m going to have to stand by my original position on this that unborn babies are not capable of sin. Unless someone can explain to me how an unborn baby is capable of sin. Furthermore I reject the notion that they or anyone else is found guilty by God for Adam’s sin. I still haven’t seen any verse that supports this idea.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
According to your theology. I will keep saying this over and over.
This is the condition we are born into.

“The wrong things the sinful self does are clear: being sexually unfaithful, not being pure, taking part in sexual sins, worshiping gods, doing witchcraft, hating, making trouble, being jealous, being angry, being selfish, making people angry with each other, causing divisions among people, feeling envy, being drunk, having wild and wasteful parties, and doing other things like these. I warn you now as I warned you before: Those who do these things will not inherit God’s kingdom.” Galatians 5:19–21 (EXPNT)

This is our condition after being born again.

“But the Spirit produces the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. There is no law that says these things are wrong. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified their own sinful selves. They have given up their old selfish feelings and the evil things they wanted to do. We get our new life from the Spirit, so we should follow the Spirit.” Galatians 5:22–25 (EXPNT)

You need to prove you can be saved before being born again from the above.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,876
USA
✟580,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yep, and you take this as a defense of a Calvinistic tactic of speaking in mysteries (that helps nobody), when I can simply figure out what you believe by a deep investigation on my own of what you believe.
If you could understand what I believe you would be a Calvinist too.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SPF

Well-Known Member
Feb 7, 2017
3,594
1,984
ATL
✟142,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
If you could understand what I believe you would be a Calvinist too.
It's been said that Calvin and Luther never said anything that Augustine hadn't already. I don't think it's really shocking that when we look at the giant theologians of Christianity we find that virtually every single one of them held to a a strong view of God's providence.

Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Edwards, and then more recently people like Sproul, Piper, Geisler... There might just be something to it...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave L
Upvote 0

Isilwen

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2019
3,741
2,788
Florida
✟161,599.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Democrat
This is the condition we are born into.

“The wrong things the sinful self does are clear: being sexually unfaithful, not being pure, taking part in sexual sins, worshiping gods, doing witchcraft, hating, making trouble, being jealous, being angry, being selfish, making people angry with each other, causing divisions among people, feeling envy, being drunk, having wild and wasteful parties, and doing other things like these. I warn you now as I warned you before: Those who do these things will not inherit God’s kingdom.” Galatians 5:19–21 (EXPNT)

This is our condition after being born again.

“But the Spirit produces the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. There is no law that says these things are wrong. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified their own sinful selves. They have given up their old selfish feelings and the evil things they wanted to do. We get our new life from the Spirit, so we should follow the Spirit.” Galatians 5:22–25 (EXPNT)

You need to prove you can be saved before being born again from the above.

I don't need to prove anything to you. Your theology is not my theology, nor do I think either of us will change our minds.

You continue to believe as you do and I will do the same, when I get to Heaven I will ask around for you and then maybe we'll have a big laugh all this.
 
Upvote 0
Jul 23, 2018
11
4
63
Florida
✟16,453.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
""We may rest assured that God would never have suffered any infants to be slain except those who were already damned and predestined for eternal death." - John Calvin, Harmony of the Law, Vol 2, "Judicial Supplements", Comments on Deut ch 13.

He really said this? WOW! I can't fathom anyone having any serious regard for the "theology" of a nut like this. Unbelievable.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The stain is the nature not the guilt. What sin can an unborn fetus possibly commit against God?

They sinned in Adam because they are a part of Adam genetically. Hebrews says Levi paid tithes in Abraham to Melchizedek when Levi was not yet born.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There's a standard set of doctrine most Calvinists rally around but it goes much deeper than what you see on the surface.

We are to preach the Word and not hide it.
 
Upvote 0

StillGods

Well-Known Member
Aug 9, 2017
1,507
2,648
North Island
✟292,669.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Taking 2 Pet .3:9 out of context does not prove your false idea.
God does not cast sinners choices into hell, the sinner is cast into hell without mercy.Your statements are defective biblically.
Heb10.26-31.

we are all judged according to what we do, that includes whether we accept or reject Christ Jesus.
Rejecting Jesus = eternal damnation sadly.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I used to attack "Calvinist" who held those views but they didn't have a firm understanding. They were mostly eternally secure Arminians which doesn't add up.

If you attack free will in regards to salvation, chances are you hold to some form of Calvinism.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,803.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Interesting question! The sinful nature inherited through the male gender? How do you understand it?

If there is a sin nature that is inherited, then that means sin in some way has tainted them. For it would be like saying a person is not sick and neither do they have a virus even though they have symptoms of that virus and they are sick.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ICONO'CLAST

Well-Known Member
Apr 2, 2005
1,902
781
new york
✟93,319.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm sorry, but that isn't true. God does not force us to follow Him. He gives us a choice. Follow Him or not.
Acts17:30 -31does not agree with you.
No one seeks God so your choice idea is false.
Men are rebels against God....the only choice they make is luke 19:14
 
Upvote 0