South Dakota nurse describes patients dying of COVID-19 who still refuse to believe it

NerdGirl said:

I didn't leave out anything. Covid is a global virus, and so is influenza.

The flu vaccine is never 100% effective, and some years, is almost completely ineffective. Were you rallying for isolation and lockdowns and masks during those years?

Hmm.

Oh, so now you're suddenly supportive of wearing masks during flu season! Why am I not surprised? But you weren't throwing that idea around before 2020, were you?

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Both are global, but it's really the US whining about doing anything about it cause it will hurt the economy.

Hey again we probably SHOULD be doing more to curb the flu. Maybe make it so you can't fire someone for being home sick from the flu so they aren't force to show up at work or lose their jobs.

NerdGirl said:

I am all for putting laws into place that would support protecting employment for people who are sick and want to stay home, both to protect their own health and others. I had a co-worker tell me that she comes into work even if she has a fever, and she was utterly convinced she put nobody else at risk because she kept her office door closed. As if she didn't walk through the hallways to get in and out, or visit the restroom or the break room or the copy machine, and didn't touch buttons or doorknobs along the way. She was infuriating.

Sadly, a lot of employers can and will fire people who take too much sick time, even if they're legitimately ill. I understand the quandry; you have a business to run, and you can't do it without manpower. But if someone is sick, they need to stay home; period.

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I agree....but it's hard to ignore the economic crisis that people are dealing with.

A lot of people are barely hanging onto jobs...many are barely able to cover their bills. I agree that anyone sick should stay home...but I also understand that if staying home means that you can't afford to put food on the table, you're probably going to take the risk and go to work.

I think I read that 15 million people are set to lose unemployment benefits the day after Christmas. If 2020 makes 10 million people homeless, staying home no longer becomes an option.

It's weird to see people talk like they don't understand there's literally a tipping point, economically, that means keeping things shut down will just kill even more people. It's entirely possible it could cause the virus to kill more people than if things weren't shut down.

Ana the Ist said:

Of course, pointing to them as an example of "how to do it right" doesn't mean anything if you're not willing to do what they did.

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Of course. There's no way to correct the US Titanic now, you hit that iceberg a while back and the bulkheads are filling with water. I predict 500 000 dead before the pandemic is over. 1 in 600 of your people. An absolute humanitarian disaster but, as you say, unavoidable.

loveofourlord said:

Both are global, but it's really the US whining about doing anything about it cause it will hurt the economy.

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It's not though...

Water cannon fired at Frankfurt anti-lockdown rally

Spain's PM calls for calm after violent anti-lockdown protests

Haircuts, protests, a night out: Watch how Paris reacted to second lockdown - CNN Video

The same thing is being protested in a lot of nations. Just because you don't pay attention to it doesn't mean it's not happening.

They clearly aren't following any Trump propaganda or QAnon conspiracy theories....these are completely legitimate concerns and legitimate reactions to losing jobs, businesses, and livelihoods.

Tanj said:

Of course. There's no way to correct the US Titanic now, you hit that iceberg a while back and the bulkheads are filling with water. I predict 500 000 dead before the pandemic is over. 1 in 600 of your people. An absolute humanitarian disaster but, as you say, unavoidable.

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I wouldn't be surprised if that's the result. I definitely consider it a problem that has passed the point of being fixable....largely because it was an election year.

Also because the left isn't willing to take the action necessary to fix it....but also because they would fight the right if they tried to take the action to fix it. It's basically political suicide for anyone who tries.

NerdGirl said:

I didn't leave out anything. Covid is a global virus, and so is influenza.

The flu vaccine is never 100% effective, and some years, is almost completely ineffective. Were you rallying for isolation and lockdowns and masks during those years?

Oh, so now you're suddenly supportive of wearing masks during flu season! Why am I not surprised? But you weren't throwing that idea around before 2020, were you?

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The flu is considerably less dangerous, and vaccines were available.
Mask-wearing might not be a thing in the US, but it was in many Asian countries.

I suspect that - post-COVID - it will become more common in western countries as well. Along with a greater focus on hygiene and distancing / staying home if people are unwell. Which would be a good thing.

Landon Caeli said:

It's more of a common stereotype I think, considering that when it comes to smoking, there seems to be a lot of nonchalance toward getting cancer, heart disease, etc... Asia as a whole can't really be classified one way or another in regards to health or safety, IMO, without ignoring a lot of things.

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What @pitabread was referring to is the belief that each individual has a social responsibility towards others. This isn’t just a stereotype, it’s true and how Asians describe their culture. This is different from self destructive behaviors like smoking. It’s about the social contract and it’s why you see a deep care and respect for older people, not just one’s own parents or grandparents and why they see wearing a mask as a duty to each other.

Ana the Ist said:

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the result. I definitely consider it a problem that has passed the point of being fixable....largely because it was an election year.

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Actually I disagree there, it's the result of the election (just the down ballot, not presidential), the swing towards republican, which for me shows the inevitability of the death. In the middle of the pandemic people upvoted for the side that want to do nothing about the pandemic. The people have spoken.

NerdGirl said:

650,000 people died from the flu in 2017.

Did you start a campaign to shame everyone who had a stuffy nose or sore throat, to stay home, lest they murder you with their germs?

I feel like common sense has just abandoned the world sometimes.

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Why do ypu think that is a compelling statistic? COVID has killed twice as many people, in less time, with worldwide shutdowns to curb the spread. Can you imagine how many would have died if we had treated it it like the flu?

Are you OK with having what happened in New York and Italy happening everywhere? Hospitals overflowing and medical professionals working nonstop and still unable to keep up?

loveofourlord said:

Both are global, but it's really the US whining about doing anything about it cause it will hurt the economy.

Hey again we probably SHOULD be doing more to curb the flu. Maybe make it so you can't fire someone for being home sick from the flu so they aren't force to show up at work or lose their jobs.

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I agree! This whole experience has taught us a lot about how we can prevent many of those flu deaths. I’ll definitely wear a mask from time to time when I am sick and have to go out, even after all of this is over, now that I know it can help prevent the spread of the flu.

Sparagmos said:

I agree! This whole experience has taught us a lot about how we can prevent many of those flu deaths. I’ll definitely wear a mask from time to time when I am sick and have to go out, even after all of this is over, now that I know it can help prevent the spread of the flu.

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I've never gone this long without being sick. It has been nice, I'll admit, but I think when this is over, I'll stick with just keeping the hand sanitizer nearby... I feel pretty good about it. I think that and the constant handwashing play a major role.

Landon Caeli said:

I've never gone this long without being sick. It has been nice, I'll admit, but I think when this is over, I'll stick with just keeping the hand sanitizer nearby... I feel pretty good about it. I think that and the constant handwashing play a major role.

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If there's a positive to come from the whole COVID pandemic, it's that preventative hygiene has become common place among most of the population in a lot of countries that had gotten pretty slack at it.

That will hopefully not just help keep COVID at bay but reduce the number of deaths due to flu as well.

In Australia, it's resulted in a situation where you're statistically more likely to get COVID than flu at the moment, and flu deaths are down from several hundred last year to just a handful this year.

Tanj said:

Actually I disagree there, it's the result of the election (just the down ballot, not presidential), the swing towards republican, which for me shows the inevitability of the death. In the middle of the pandemic people upvoted for the side that want to do nothing about the pandemic. The people have spoken.

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I think I totally understand why you disagree and in all honesty....there's some good points to be made in that argument.

I really only worded it that way because I do think it's a dire crisis, and I do think there's a possible solution....and it's because of that solution that I worded it that way. It's not because I don't see any problems arising from the political right regarding the solution, I definitely do. It's just that the problems with the left regarding the solution are larger, in my opinion, and a bit harder to solve for.

The left, generally speaking, seems to have an idea that if we can just get everyone to agree on a viewpoint and facts....we can beat this thing. In a nation of 320 million people who are in the middle of crisis and increasingly divided on political views....I simply don't think that's possible. The big problem with the right on the other hand....is that the problem gets framed as either unfixable or much smaller than it is....which just looks easier to fix.

I see the only feasible solution as mainly empowering the police to enforce scientifically grounded mandates for a few months. The right tends to be in favor of law and order....but against the government encroaching upon their rights. I think I'd have an easier time selling the solution to them as something temporary....but as part of their duty as Americans. I might have to do something ugly like paint it as a fight against the Chinese government...but I think it's possible to do.

The left on the other hand...I don't know how I can possibly sell them on the idea of an actual police state (even a temporary one) since they've spent so much time painting the police as political enemies of the people. They seem inclined to drop the idea as soon as they see any group of people as having a more important problem.

There's multiple examples of this. Take closing down illegal crossings on the southern border. They know that Covid is a big problem in Mexico....and they know a lot of people are waiting to cross illegally to apply for asylum. I don't know how to sell them on the idea that we can't allow that to happen during a pandemic. The pandemic is definitely a bigger issue and releasing hundreds of thousands of asylum seekers into the US makes solving the pandemic far more difficult.

Another big issue is racial justice. The initial talks about making black people exempt from mask mandates because they are scared of being shot by police....isn't going to work. It's definitely not going to work if we want police to enforce mask mandates . We actually had Democrats trying to declare "racism" a "public health crisis"...during an actual public health crisis. That's not going to work. We have to treat Covid like it's the most important problem and we can't really allow people to try and use it to push their personal political agenda.

I can't really think of a narrative that would get the left to see that law enforcement is the solution and that they can't support people who want to get out in the streets to protest whatever they think is more important....especially if it's a protest against law enforcement.

That's why I see the left as a bigger obstacle between the problem and the solution. There's definitely a smaller group of people on the right who will violently oppose even a minor encroachment or temporary suspension of their rights. I just think it's a smaller group than the one on the left who won't agree with any solution that infringes upon the issues they prioritize.

Tanj said:

Actually I disagree there, it's the result of the election (just the down ballot, not presidential), the swing towards republican, which for me shows the inevitability of the death. In the middle of the pandemic people upvoted for the side that want to do nothing about the pandemic. The people have spoken.

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Another problem that makes it harder to find solutions with the left is the way they increasingly debate issues.

If we just stick with my illegal immigrants example from my last post....it's a completely different kind of discussion on the right and the left.

If I take a position against a conservative's position....I can expect some level of debate over the facts, debate over possible problems, a debate over possible solutions. I'd expect that 9 times out of 10. I may frustrate them....they may even end up calling me stupid. Ultimately though, calling me stupid is an attack on my political views regarding that issue. I'd only expect that they'd write me off as a immoral or hopelessly irredeemable person 1 out of 10 times.

On the left I'd say that I can really only expect the same 5 out of 10 times. The other 5 won't even have the discussion....they'll hear my position and immediately write me off as deplorable or immoral in some way that justifies all attempts to attack me as a human being. Bigot....xenophobic....it doesn't matter if I even say anything bigoted or xenophobic....I can expect that I'll be attacked as a person, an attack on my character that justifies writing me off.

Personally, that doesn't hurt me. When a large group of the left starts accepting that kind of response....it basically stifles any real debate about the problem and any possibility of finding a solution. People on the left have trouble saying what they really think now because of this....so the left has created a thought bubble on a lot of issues.

That bubble, imo, is exactly why their ability to create successful polling models has been a failure. They keep seeing a tide of blue candidates that never materializes because they can't say what they really think anymore. It's also why they fail to find solutions for the issues they have bubbled....and often try to describe them as "lifelong struggles".

It's much like how the right has trouble finding solutions for gun violence. Bulletproof backpacks are a ridiculous solution for anything. The dogmatic thinking is that "guns are never a problem"....so for any issue where guns are the problem, solutions are hard to come by.

That bubble is almost entirely dogmatic.....the bubbles the left creates are sometimes dogmatic....but they're increasingly enforced by shame and character attacks.

Ana the Ist said:

Another problem that makes it harder to find solutions with the left is the way they increasingly debate issues.

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But by far the biggest issue is exemplified by both of your replies to my post, both of which started with vilification of teh evul left.

And don't get me wrong, there's plenty of examples on this board which start with teh evul right.

Here's the thing though, COVID couldn't care less about either. The left uses righteous indignation and cancel culture to shut down opposing opinions as wrong, the right relies on fantasy garbage and utter nonsense presented as evidence. The virus is more than happy to infect both groups.
---------
Listen. Understand. That Terminator is out there. It can't be reasoned with, it can't be bargained with...it doesn't feel pity of remorse or fear...and it absolutely will not stop.Ever. Until you are dead.

NerdGirl said:

Yes, please, let's start insulting millions of people based on their political views. Because that totally is on point with the OP's topic and will definitely make everyone change their viewpoint to align with yours.

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It was meant as an explanation, not an insult. Political idolatry, on the contrary, would be required to deny COVID-19 is a reality, all the while you are dying from it.

Ana the Ist said:

When nations like this have 5000 confirmed cases and 500,000 suspected cases...

Testing is an issue getting in the way of facts. Maybe they're doing great....maybe they're doing terrible.

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Where do you get "500.000 suspected cases" from?

I can't really trust info out of China. You shouldn't either.

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Of course not. After all, China is the enemy. Everything they do, like creating a giant solar park, is just a nefarious scheme.

Nithavela said:

Where do you get "500.000 suspected cases" from?

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COVID-19 pandemic in Thailand - Wikipedia

I suppose someone could make that up....but I can't imagine why. They seem to be struggling with testing.

Of course not. After all, China is the enemy. Everything they do, like creating a giant solar park, is just a nefarious scheme.

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The enemy? Chinese people would tell you that they don't trust information about China if they didn't get thrown into a dark hole for it.

Seriously, you have to know that China runs a 24/7 propaganda campaign promoting the greatness of China....right? It's not mere nationalism...they keep a tight control on what even we say about them. It affects the movies and TV shows that get made right here in the US. There's a very real threat to the lives and families of any Chinese person who speaks out against the government.

You know what they call the Tiananmen Square Massacre? Me neither....as far as I can tell, they've basically erased it from their own history. Have you ever seen an interview with a Chinese person in China where that person was asked about anything remotely controversial about the government? They start looking around like they expect a squad of soldiers to kick in the door and drag them away and then they quietly explain they aren't allowed to talk about it lol.

Part of their nationalistic propaganda involved a revival of traditional martial arts sometime in the last 10-15 years. It involved a lot of bogus claims that every real professional fighter knows aren't true. MMA basically proved to everyone what really works and what doesn't. Claims of chi and kung fu masters defeating 5 opponents at a time were a regular part the propaganda campaign. Why do I bring this up? Because one middle aged, relatively out of shape, amatuer Chinese MMA fighter dared to disagree with the validity of these claims.

He basically ended up beating kung fu master after kung fu master so easily....that the Chinese government started punishing him....for contradicting their propaganda. What did the punishment include? It started off pretty mild....losing his job, being blacklisted from other jobs, removing his right to travel, having his own gym ban him, then having them remove all records of him, threatening his family....

I don't know how it ended for this poor guy, because I'm pretty sure he lost his ability to use the internet. This is just because he dared to share the truth of what works in martial arts and what doesn't. If the guy had actually spoken out against the government, he'd probably have been thrown in jail....if that's not where he is right now.

If a 100k Chinese people were laying in a mass grave dead from Covid....and the government's explanation was they all died from heart attacks...you can be sure that every Chinese scientist, citizen, and even their surviving relatives will say they all died of heart attacks.

What exactly do you think happens over there? Do you think they have freedom of speech or freedom to contradict their government? They don't.

Maybe they're telling the truth....maybe Kim Jong actually found and rode a unicorn. There's no real way to know.

How are you not aware of this?

Nithavela said:

Where do you get "500.000 suspected cases" from?


Of course not. After all, China is the enemy. Everything they do, like creating a giant solar park, is just a nefarious scheme.

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Here, have a gander....

Media Censorship in China

In February 2016, Xi announced new media policy for party and state news outlines: “All the work by the party’s media must reflect the party’s will, safeguard the party’s authority, and safeguard the party’s unity,” emphasizing that state media must align themselves with the “thought, politics, and actions” of the party leadership. A China Daily essay emphasized Xi’s policy, noting that “the nation’s media outlets are essential to political stability.”

The France-based watchdog group Reporters Without Borders ranked China 176 out of 180 countries in its 2016 worldwide index of press freedom. Experts say Chinese media outlets usually employ their own monitors to ensure political acceptability of their content.

You're talking about one of the strictest and most tightly controlled state run media's in the world. It's extremely oppressive...in a real sense, not in the sense that some sense that some 20yo liberal arts major in the US means. I'm genuinely curious who the 4 nations are that are worse....Iran? N Korea?

Chinese activists that speak out against the Chinese government while abroad have their families threatened. China jails a large number of political prisoners.

All I can say for certain about their effectiveness in dealing with Covid is that the story they give is definitely the one they want people to believe. It might be true...it might not. There's no real way to know.

Ana the Ist said:

Part of their nationalistic propaganda involved a revival of traditional martial arts sometime in the last 10-15 years. It involved a lot of bogus claims that every real professional fighter knows aren't true. MMA basically proved to everyone what really works and what doesn't. Claims of chi and kung fu masters defeating 5 opponents at a time were a regular part the propaganda campaign. Why do I bring this up? Because one middle aged, relatively out of shape, amatuer Chinese MMA fighter dared to disagree with the validity of these claims.

He basically ended up beating kung fu master after kung fu master so easily....that the Chinese government started punishing him....for contradicting their propaganda. What did the punishment include? It started off pretty mild....losing his job, being blacklisted from other jobs, removing his right to travel, having his own gym ban him, then having them remove all records of him, threatening his family....

I don't know how it ended for this poor guy, because I'm pretty sure he lost his ability to use the internet.

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Are you talking about Xu Xiaodong?

Xu Xiaodong - Wikipedia