Metaphysical and epistemological questions about Gods Word, Bible, and God.

Neogaia777 said:

Are you talking about relational and/or experiencial knowledge, and/or and/or by or through those means attaining knowledge...?

Or the ways in which we can identify or relate, and somehow almost feel as if we are sharing in others experiences, etc...?

People that we read and/or hear about, or hear from, etc...?

Or see on a television sometimes, etc...?

God Bless!

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Cause some have or can feel this so very strongly sometimes, or do or have it happen so often sometimes, that it is oftentimes way, way too "overwhelming", etc, and they have to, (sometimes severely) sometimes greatly limit or really restrict their exposure sometimes, etc...?

People like myself, etc...

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

yes, i don't doubt this at all.

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Is that or this kind of thing at all what you are or were talking about at all, etc...?

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

It would have to be one of the many ways for us to know things.

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Some say there is that kind of knowledge, etc...?

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

such as seeing vivid images of true events in dreams.

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I've had some crazy dreams, but they were never about literal events literally, not literally anyway, so I don't know if they were ever at all in any kind of way at all "prophetic" at all ever either, cause they were never "literal", etc...?

I could never make heads or tails of them, etc...

But some were very, very, very "vivid", etc...

Almost seemed "more real than what is real" sometimes, etc...

But in the end, I couldn't make heads or tails of them, etc...?

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

No. I'm talking about how we can access information, facts about past events.

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Yet your talking about doing it, or being able to do it, in a kind of more "metaphysical" way, right...?

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

Because i believe we would have to be able to in order for the bible to be objective truth.

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Why do you believe this, or what do you mean, or how so, etc...?

Cause I don't think it's absolutely necessary, etc...?

It can just be "icing on the cake", etc...

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

Edit: Although what you said is semi-related, so yes, it pertains to the subject, but i'm not sure i have much experience with this. Sounds interesting though.

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Well, look into it, do some study on it on the internet, etc, see if it at all relates at all to what you are saying or talking about at all, etc...?

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

I edited my first response to you. So recheck it. Also. Let's just take the story of Joseph for example. When the bible says he was storing grain for the famine, and he had so much he was unable to measure it. We can imagine all possible ways this happened, but in reality, only one of them is true/the way it actually happened!

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I'd have to re-review Joseph's story, but are you talking about when he was physically measuring it or trying to store it, or in a dream, etc...?

Cause if it when he was physically measuring it or trying to store it, then what are you saying is not true about it, etc...?

Cause it's probably not true that it couldn't be measured, etc, just that they had so much of it, it was very difficult to measure, etc...?

Maybe couldn't keep up, etc...?

But how does that make the story "not true", or "not the way it actually happened", etc...?

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

I edited my first response to you. So recheck it. Also. Let's just take the story of Joseph for example. When the bible says he was storing grain for the famine, and he had so much he was unable to measure it. We can imagine all possible ways this happened, but in reality, only one of them is true/the way it actually happened!

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I did, and I quoted the edit, etc...

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

I think my main point is. If the bible is objective truth, there has to be a way for us to know it. Otherwise , it doesn't get us any closer to truth! If that makes sense.

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Well, the Bible says it can only happen, or only comes, or only does come, by "faith", and faith only and alone, etc, and any other way, no matter what you conclude about it, that is not "by faith", etc, is not accepted by God anyway, so what would it matter anyway, etc...?

If you can't take some of it by or on faith, etc, then you are faithless, and God only accepts, and only ever reacts, or acts, or only ever responds to "faith", etc...

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

I think my main point is. If the bible is objective truth, there has to be a way for us to know it. Otherwise , it doesn't get us any closer to truth! If that makes sense.

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You either think it is truth, or objective truth, or you do not, and it is really quite that simple, etc...

Comes completely down to what you "believe", etc...

How you come to believe it or that is completely up to you, etc, but in the end it will take some measure of "faith", in or on some of it, etc...

Cause otherwise, God rejects it and you anyway, etc...

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

I would argue that Abraham also had faith, but only after getting confirmation in the form of an audible voice from God. So either faith can have a much broader meaning, or we are to have a much different kind of faith than people who had actual interactions with God. There has to be a point where God interacts with us the same way, or provides us to "know" in the same way bible characters did. Otherwise it's just selling us a dream!

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Sorry you feel or believe that way (that last part, etc)...

But, I would ask you if you have truly sought after God and His voice/presence or whatever with all that you are/have, etc, and also, "ALSO", if you have truly fully left or forsaken your own self and your own pride and/or your own ego to truly do this truly in your own life ever, etc...?

Cause the Bible says there are hardly any, and it even says "none", etc, that are ever truly doing this, etc, and that He is against such ones and will not ever speak to them, etc...

Not until they truly change that anyway, etc...

So, have you truly ever, etc...?

And again, it will take at least some small measure of "faith" also, etc...

The size of a mustard grain/seed would even be enough, etc...

So, do you think you can do or ever have that, etc...?

Cause if not, then good luck in ever hearing from Him, etc...

Cause He says that He and you, or you and He are "enemies" in that or those cases or circumstances, etc...

If you cannot or do not, or never truly have ever, etc...

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

As far as i know, yes, i have, but i will do some soul searching, and read again, and take everything you said to heart. And thank you for your help.

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Your very welcome, and good luck in your search...

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

I would argue that Abraham also had faith, but only after getting confirmation in the form of an audible voice from God. So either faith can have a much broader meaning, or we are to have a much different kind of faith than people who had actual interactions with God. There has to be a point where God interacts with us the same way, or provides us to "know" in the same way bible characters did. Otherwise it's just selling us a dream!

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I agree that we can't ever know in the same way as the apostles who witnessed the risen Christ. The experience turned their lives around from being fearful and denying they knew Jesus to being willing to die rather than renounce him. They didn't need faith because they knew. That is not the case for us. We don't know in the same way and so we need faith. But it's not blind faith so it's more than just a dream. I think we all believe because mainly of our personal experience of God, which is real experience even if not as incontrovertible as the apostle's, and this is then backed up by what we learn from others and the Bible.

Hmmm! said:

I agree that we can't ever know in the same way as the apostles who witnessed the risen Christ. The experience turned their lives around from being fearful and denying they knew Jesus to being willing to die rather than renounce him. They didn't need faith because they knew. That is not the case for us. We don't know in the same way and so we need faith. But it's not blind faith so it's more than just a dream. I think we all believe because mainly of our personal experience of God, which is real experience even if not as incontrovertible as the apostle's, and this is then backed up by what we learn from others and the Bible.

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John 20:29...

God Bless!

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

i definitely agree that knowledge of God must come from within. There simply can be no other way to know anything. Unless i'm mistaken

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God's Word tells us that knowledge of God can not "come from within."

Within is where it should end up taking root. As if the Word from the outside were planted inside you.

Why can it not come from within to begin with?
Here's why...



That is why we must be taught "the ways of the Lord." When taught with accuracy we will discover at times that what we assumed about God is not God at all. But, simply placing our own self in the position of "if I were God this is how I would do it." God's ways must be learned from a pastor-teacher whom God has called and has assigned to feed his flock. Not some factory produced seminary denomination. For we all must be correctable when its found.

2 Timothy 4:3 was a warning about what we find today all around us...



We do not have many pastors today who is able tell you what we need to learn if we are to grow beyond babyhood. But, rather, we find many who know what people in their natural thinking want to hear about God. These teachers will distract us away from ever discovering the amazing life that God will infuse when we have enough sound doctrine understood so we can begin to think with God. Having learned his thoughts that are not like ours.

Emotions are not thinking. Everyone can understand love. Undefined love. God's Word keeps us safe when it learned and we mature in Christ by having sound understanding from good teaching.

Very few pastors today are actually doing their job correctly. Jesus warned that the road destruction is "broad and wide." Jesus came to give life abundantly... But, he said. "Few find it."


James 3:1 tells us if all pastors were truly led of the Spirit? That we would be finding only a few good men teaching the church. Not many teachers like we see today.. Teachers with all sorts of teachings designed to appeal to some natural way men wish to see God.

When we are taught the Word of God with accuracy we will end for a season in our lives finding out how stupid we can be. Its a part of God's plan in TRANSFORMATION of our minds. Transforming us into the image of Christ by means of the Spirit and the Truth we are willing to accept. Transforming us out of how we normally may see things.


Here comes God's drill sergeant...

We need pastors that are real men. Not theological politicians who will tell us what they know we want to hear. It must be what we need to hear.

grace and peace.......

Hmmm! said:

I agree that we can't ever know in the same way as the apostles who witnessed the risen Christ. The experience turned their lives around from being fearful and denying they knew Jesus to being willing to die rather than renounce him. They didn't need faith because they knew. That is not the case for us. We don't know in the same way and so we need faith. But it's not blind faith so it's more than just a dream. I think we all believe because mainly of our personal experience of God, which is real experience even if not as incontrovertible as the apostle's, and this is then backed up by what we learn from others and the Bible.

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Here is my story (in brief)... I was born and raised in a (very) Reformed Jewish unhappy home; I suffered accordingly. Even though I was Bar-Mitzvah at 13, because my life was so unhappy I became a committed atheist. I argued often and passionately against there being a God.

About twenty years later I was in a hospital with an unbreakable asthma spasm. The doctors and nurses could do nothing. A woman preacher/evangelist, with whom I had argued often about God, Jesus, Christianity, etc. came into my hospital room. She asked if she could pray for me; I said yes. She read Matthew 11:28-30 (to which I REALLY listened) put her hands on my chest and prayed "Jesus, heal this man". Immediately 1) the asthma spasm broke completely and 2) I became a believing Christian right then and there.

She went out and bought me a pocket KJV New Testament, which I read eagerly for the remaining few days in the hospital. (I also received the gift of speaking in tongues)

I have been a devoted, committed Christian every day since that event happened 43 years ago. There are no -- ZERO -- questions that God -- actually the Godhead in all its fullness -- is real, alive, and active. I have no metaphysical and/or epistemological questions about God or the Bible -- NONE.

Michael Garrett Andrews said:

I would argue that Abraham also had faith, but only after getting confirmation in the form of an audible voice from God. So either faith can have a much broader meaning, or we are to have a much different kind of faith than people who had actual interactions with God. There has to be a point where God interacts with us the same way, or provides us to "know" in the same way bible characters did. Otherwise it's just selling us a dream!

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God reveals to us through His Word that we are all given different amounts and degrees of talents...faith itself is considered one of the gifts...see gifts in I Corinthians...great faith, is a gift. This says something about the Judgement we'll receive too for Scripture states that (Luke 12:48) he who is given much, much will be demanded. We are given different measures of gifts and are likewise accountable for them.
the following passage explains that God dealt and deals with man differently through the ages...so it is to be understood among mankind and all remains binding on us.
Hebrews 1:1-2:
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.