Why do people blame calvinists ?

John Mullally · Oct 31, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Can a physically dead man choose to come back to life ? why not

Can a spiritually dead man choose to have spiritual life ? why

Doesn't dead mean dead or does it just depend upon your doctrine ?

Fortunately God raises the dead and is able to save those who call on Him:

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

RickReads · Oct 31, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Can a physically dead man choose to come back to life ? why not

Can a spiritually dead man choose to have spiritual life ? why

Doesn't dead mean dead or does it just depend upon your doctrine ?

The scriptures show the election to occur before formation in the womb. What scripture supports your questions? I don`t know off top of my head the answers to your questions. I`m just curious to know how they pertain to scripture.

chad kincham · Oct 31, 2020

RickReads said:
Becoming a man did not and could not change Jesus. He does not change and it was Jesus who spoke to Moses and walked with Adam in the garden. aka the Angel of the Lord. The Theophany.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8

"No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 1:18

"Who is the image of the invisible God" Colossians 1:15

I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

Jesus is very God, but is not the father - but He is the second person of the Godhead, and is therefore uncreated, eternally existing deity, equal to the Father, and thus He is the I AM, as the Father is, because He eternally exists.

Because He's God the Logos from John 1, He can transcend time, and appear in the OT in His body that He incarnated into, which I believe it’s clear that He did.

Which is why Genesis 19 says Yahweh on earth, (who appeared to Abraham as a man in Genesis 18 ), rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom, from Yahweh in heaven.

RickReads · Oct 31, 2020

chad kincham said:
I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

Jesus is very God, but is not the father - but He is the second person of the Godhead, and is therefore uncreated, eternally existing deity, equal to the Father, and thus He is the I AM, as the Father is, because He eternally exists.

Because He's God the Logos from John 1, He can transcend time, and appear in the OT in His body that He incarnated into, which I believe it’s clear that He did.

Which is why Genesis 19 says Yahweh on earth, (who appeared to Abraham as a man in Genesis 18 ), rained down fire and brimstone on Sodom, from Yahweh in heaven.

I said becoming a man did not and could not change Jesus. The Bible tells us Jesus does not change.

Incidentally how many I ams do you think there can be?

Dave L · Oct 31, 2020

John Mullally said:
Huh? Zombie Apocalypse?

Paul says we were dead (spiritually) in sin. We did not save ourselves from that state. God had to save us.

Dave L · Oct 31, 2020

chad kincham said:
Romans 10:17 states that faith comes from hearing the word of God.

Not by first being regenerated by imparting of irresistible grace - but from hearing the word of God.

This means that the Holy Spirit, who draws us to Jesus, sufficiently enlightens those who hear God’s word preached, to believe.

This is the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8-9, because unlike what Calvinism claims, that verse says faith comes first, and it’s how we get grace - thus the gift of God is faith that we get grace THROUGH.

(By grace are ye saved THROUGH faith)

Calvinism claims grace comes first, before faith, as those such as RC Sproul freely admit, because their version of salvation requires it to be so.

The truth actually is that faith comes first, it comes by hearing Gods word, and then we have a choice to make:to reject Jesus, or receive Him and be saved.

Jesus came only for the elect nation of Israel. Matthew 15:24. Isaiah 45:4

Yet His own, that He came to save, REJECTED Him. John 1:11

This scriptural fact is diametrically opposed to reformed election doctrine. Jesus desired to save them - He came for them, to save them. Instead of irresistibly being saved, they rejected Him.

Yes, His people that Jesus, who is God, desired to come to Him, who yearned for them to believe in Him and be saved, resisted His desire, and refused Him:

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!

This is because God allows free will, and thus the Holy Spirit is thus resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.

Stephen was preaching to the same group of Israelites that Jesus lamented killed the prophets God sent them, and who rejected Jesus.

He tells us how they were able to reject Jesus: they resist the Holy Spirit.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?

The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.

There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.

Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.

As Jesus said to them:

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Corinthians 4:3–4 (KJV 1900)

Jesus is YHWH · Oct 31, 2020

John Mullally said:
Fortunately God raises the dead and is able to save those who call on Him:

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 3:27, "John answered and said, 'A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.'"

John 6:44, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:65, "And He was saying, ‘For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’"

Ephesians 2:4-5- But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions

Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses,

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is YHWH · Oct 31, 2020

RickReads said:
I said becoming a man did not and could not change Jesus. The Bible tells us Jesus does not change.

Incidentally how many I ams do you think there can be?

Yes God Is Immutable- Jesus always was and is fully God.

John Mullally · Oct 31, 2020

God honors His word. Therefore, if one follows the instructions in Romans 10:6-10 one is born again. No need to obfuscate.

Dave L · Oct 31, 2020

John Mullally said:
God honors His word. Therefore, if one follows the instructions in Romans 10:6-10 one is born again. No need to obfuscate.

Those are not instructions (works to obey). They are what saved people do by nature. It tells us if we are doing these things it's because God gave us a new birth and Holy nature.

John Mullally · Oct 31, 2020

Dave L said:
Those are not instructions (works to obey). They are what saved people do by nature. It tells us if we are doing these things it's because God gave us a new birth and Holy nature.

Romans 10:6-10 are God's Word and they are in fact instructions.

Dave L · Oct 31, 2020

John Mullally said:
Romans 10:6-10 are God's Word and they are in fact instructions.

If they are instructions they are law. And law cannot save. Born again people do what Paul mentions all the time and he assures them that fruit proves God saved them.

John Mullally · Oct 31, 2020

Dave L said:
If they are instructions they are law. And law cannot save. Born again people do what Paul mentions all the time and he assures them that fruit proves God saved them.

You are redefining LAW. By your reasoning, all the instructions Jesus gave his disciples are LAW (which cannot save). And yet he said:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Dave L · Oct 31, 2020

John Mullally said:
You are redefining LAW. By your reasoning, all the instructions Jesus gave his disciples are LAW (which cannot save). And yet he said:

John 14:Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

This is a promise, not a law. How can you love someone if you need a law to force you to?

John Mullally · Oct 31, 2020

Dave L said:
This is a promise, not a law. How can you love someone if you need a law to force you to?

My point was:

You have expanded LAW to include attempting to follow instructions.
Jesus gave instructions to his disciples - thus establishing new LAWs according to you.
John 14:23 indicates that you love Him only if you follow his instructions (expanded by you to include LAW).

Dave L · Oct 31, 2020

John Mullally said:
My point was:

You have expanded LAW to include attempting to follow instructions.

Jesus gave instructions to his disciples - thus establishing new LAWs.

John 14:23 indicates that you love Him only if you follow his instructions (expanded by you to include LAW).

Law is law. It is based on free will. Law forcing you to love God is prostitution. Either he gives us a heart that loves him or we sell ourselves to the devil.

John Mullally · Oct 31, 2020

Dave L said:
Law is law. It is based on free will. Law forcing you to love God is prostitution. Either he gives us a heart that loves him or we sell ourselves to the devil.

Although obedience to the Law will not save you, it certainly is not Prostitution.

You assume that when God draws us to Jesus, it is irresistible - but you can resist the call. In Acts 7:51 St Steven says people can resist the Holy Spirit. And Jesus expounds on this in Matthew 22.

Acts 7:51 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Matthew 22:8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Dave L · Oct 31, 2020

John Mullally said:
Although obedience to the Law will not save you, it certainly is not Prostitution.

You assume that when God draws us to Jesus, it is irresistible - but you can resist the call. In Acts 7:51 St Steven says people can resist the Holy Spirit. And Jesus expounds on this in Matthew 22.

Acts 7:51 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Matthew 22:8 Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’ 10 So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. 11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

If you think obedience saves you, how is that not selling yourself in trade for eternal pleasure?

John Mullally · Oct 31, 2020

Dave L said:
If you think obedience saves you, how is that not selling yourself in trade for eternal pleasure?

You obviously are not reading my posts. I didn't say obedience saves you. And then your moving from that to "How is that not selling yourself in trade for eternal pleasure" it seems you are stuck on prostitution.

Obedience to the Law does not save you:

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

However believers need to examine their lives and make adjustments as necessary:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Dave L · Oct 31, 2020

John Mullally said:
It doesn't sound like you are reading my posts. I didn't say obedience saves you. And then your moving from that to "How is that not selling yourself in trade for eternal pleasure" is completely random. You are not a very good listener.

Obedience to the Law does not save you:

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

However believers need to examine their lives and make adjustments as necessary:

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

You already turned Romans 10:9-10 into law.

Why do people blame calvinists ?

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