want to talk about OSAS?

Jesus is YHWH said:

agreed but highliter says they became lost.

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The backslider is lost, unless they return to God. No eternal security for them in heaven.
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Kenny'sID said:

Read the following then answer this question. Can you get to heaven with faith alone or do you have to take care of the poor in order to get there.

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We don't get to heaven by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. We also don't get to heaven based on the merits of our works, such as caring for the poor. You obviously teach salvation by works and have demonstrated it multiple times. This is one more example.

The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Read full chapter

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This is a common passage of scripture that works-salvationists use (especially Roman Catholics) to try and prove that man is saved by works.

After a casual reading of the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), one might conclude that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture/scripture must harmonize with scripture. This passage needs to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, as you assume. That would be contrary to (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..).

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 is the fruit that will be manifested in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because righteousness was imputed to them on the basis of faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition/basis/means of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow.

So it's understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress works which are a manifestation of faith. Notice also how practicing righteousness and love for his brother is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is born of God not in order to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. Works-salvationists have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

1an said:

The backslider is lost, unless they return to God. No eternal security for them in heaven.
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Can someone with Adam's sinful nature backslide from Satan, without turning to Christ?

Bible Highlighter said:

You said you are not for OSAS? So you don't believe that a believer is once saved always saved and that there are cases or situations that they can lose their salvation? If so, I have run into Free Will Baptists who say they reject OSAS, and yet they believe they can sin and still be saved. They believe the only way you can fall away is by rejecting Jesus. But if you reject OSAS like the Free Will Baptist, then why say salvation is permanent? For that is exactly what OSAS is saying.

As for you not being for Calvinism: Well, you said we are saved by election, and it is a one time salvation that is permanent. This is what Calvinists believe. They believe they are saved by an election and it is permanent, as well. The Bible teaches that the Israelites were an elected and chosen nation, but that does not mean they were all saved. The same is true for everyone else. They may be elected to salvation by what Christ done for us on the cross, but that does not mean all are saved (unless you are a Universalist).

Basically you are trying to act like you are different from others in what they believe, but it sounds like you are just copying them and trying to say you are different from them, when you are not. If I am wrong, then please explain it to me.

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I ran out of patience yesterday when I read this. People rarely catch it but every position I take is based on Paul`s gospel. Paul is the source for a lot of the theology that has developed since the first century. Most denominational beliefs have some similarities to the teachings of Paul. That isn`t my fault and it sure doesn`t make me a follower of any of them. In practice I look for areas of agreement with churches. I like churches and in the real world I go out of my way to avoid criticizing them. I don`t apologize for my friendship with OSAS Trinitarian Christians.

I`m not sure you would know what to do if you set aside the pet denominational arguments that you mix with the scriptures. You got a whole army of strawmen categories you put people into that you can attack with predetermined criticisms.It prevents me from being able to discuss the Bible with you.

Calvin didn`t write these. Neither did Mr. Osas
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v

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1an said:

Moses never entered the promised land. Work it out.
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Doesn`t mean Moses was lost.

RickReads said:

Doesn`t mean Moses was lost.

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I'm not sure. He can be compared to Hitler, except Hitler never told his men to keep the girl children for themselves.
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1an said:

I'm not sure. He can be compared to Hitler, except Hitler never told his men to keep the girl children for themselves.
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God didn`t blot out his name or cut him out of the covenant, Exodus 32

You`ll love the verse because it is destructive to Calvinist theology.

Guojing said:

Can someone with Adam's sinful nature backslide from Satan, without turning to Christ?

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No. Salvation is through Jesus only.

1an said:

No. Salvation is through Jesus only.

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But you believed Jesus's obedience in the cross allow a believer to backslide away from him, while Adam's disobedience in the garden does not allow one to backslide from Satan?

Jesus's obedience does less than Adam's disobedience?

Danthemailman said:

We don't get to heaven by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. We also don't get to heaven based on the merits of our works, such as caring for the poor. You obviously teach salvation by works and have demonstrated it multiple times. This is one more example.

This is a common passage of scripture that works-salvationists use (especially Roman Catholics) to try and prove that man is saved by works.

After a casual reading of the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), one might conclude that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture/scripture must harmonize with scripture. This passage needs to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, as you assume. That would be contrary to (Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..).

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 is the fruit that will be manifested in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because righteousness was imputed to them on the basis of faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition/basis/means of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow.

So it's understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress works which are a manifestation of faith. Notice also how practicing righteousness and love for his brother is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is born of God not in order to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. Works-salvationists have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

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All that to get around answering a simple question..

No one is saved by works, and you all are the ones that keep saying that, not me. Is called being obediant to the one who saved us, and simply obeying the one we supposidly have faith in. A poster recenty claimed we need not listen to Christ for our salvation...WRONG, and I'd go so far as to call that bizzare.

Faith and works go hand and hand, cant have one without tbe other as some people claim. Faith without works is dead.

As Christ stated there, we take care of the poor, or else, and the following drives home that point, and adds, we must not be evil either, or else. These things are biblical fact.

Once again, I quote:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

RickReads said:

God didn`t blot out his name or cut him out of the covenant, Exodus 32

You`ll love the verse because it is destructive to Calvinist theology.

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I love verse 33.

The Lord is if course, the I AM. This was in the early days when they had just come out of Egypt. Later Moses went walk about and worshipped false gods the same as the people. He married the daughter of a pagan Cananite priest and , he had graven images either side of the Mercy Seat where the 'Lord' sat in judgement. The Lord became Melzisadeck. (I can never spell that.) not the I AM.

I think he backslid and worshipped the god of the Pharisees, the same god the Jews worship today.
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1an said:

I love verse 33.

The Lord is if course, the I AM. This was in the early days when they had just come out of Egypt. Later Moses went walk about and worshipped false gods the same as the people, he had a golden cherubin and serephin either side of the Mercy Seat where the 'Lord' sat in judgement. The Lord became Melzisadeck. (I can never spell that.) not the I AM.
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Yeah verse 33 is good ammo, an 88. I probably shouldn`t have pointed it out to you

Guojing said:

But you believed Jesus's obedience in the cross allow a believer to backslide away from him, while Adam's disobedience in the garden does not allow one to backslide from Satan?

Jesus's obedience does less than Adam's disobedience?

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As I said salvation is through Jesus only and the thief repented to Jesus who will forgive us our sins.

RickReads said:

Yeah verse 33 is good ammo, an 88. I probably shouldn`t have pointed it out to you

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I am glad you did, but knowing my memory I shall probably forget.

RickReads said:

Yeah verse 33 is good ammo, an 88. I probably shouldn`t have pointed it out to you

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If you notice in the same chapter Aaron was making a golden calf to the LORD and the LORD told Moses to go down because they had corrupted themselves. There are two LORDS.

1an said:

If you notice in the same chapter Aaron was making a golden calf to the LORD and the LORD told Moses to go down because they had corrupted themselves. There are two LORDS.

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I have read that in the original Hebrew there is a big Yahweh and a little Yahweh.

RickReads said:

I have read that in the original Hebrew there is a big Yahweh and a little Yahweh.

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The original Hebrew was all in capitals.

Moses in my view is a good example of a backslider similar to Judas, both men ELECTED to execute God's plan of salvation.

1an said:

The original Hebrew was all in capitals.

Moses in my view is a good example of a backslider similar to Judas, both men ELECTED to execute God's plan of salvation.

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Moses spent his last day on earth hanging out with God and looking over the promised land. I think he`s ok.

Moses also appeared to Jesus, think about it. Matt 17

Kenny'sID said:

All that to get around answering a simple question..

No one is saved by works, and you all are the ones that keep saying that, not me. Is called being obediant to the one who saved us, and simply obeying the one we supposidly have faith in. A poster recenty claimed we need not listen to Christ for our salvation...WRONG, and I'd go so far as to call that bizzare.

Faith and works go hand and hand, cant have one without tbe other as some people claim. Faith without works is dead.

As Christ stated there, we take care of the poor, or else, and the following drives home that point, and adds, we must not be evil either, or else. These things are biblical fact.

Once again, I quote:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned."

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I did answer your simple question. It just was not the answer you were looking for. In regards to John 5:28-29, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtain salvation, but is the evidence of having obtained salvation. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we also see in Romans 2:6-10. Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

You say no one is saved by works, so why do you keep arguing with me when I say the same thing? Also, why do you constantly cite passages of scripture that works-salvationists typically cite in their efforts to teach we are saved by works?

Bible Highlighter said:

That is a large leap of conclusion based off of what I said. Believers who abide in unconfessed mortal sin abide in spiritual death. They need to confess and forsake sin in order to maintain mercy and salvation (after being saved by God's grace). Obviously king David confessed of his sins to the Lord and received forgiveness and the joy of his salvation back in Psalms 51 (as it states).

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And...in between the moment of his sin and the moment of his confession, what Hell was he not saved from? It's not a big leap, really. In that period, between those two events, what happened to David that would not have happened, otherwise? What punishment did he suffer, from which he was not saved? The answer is...nothing.

Bible Highlighter said:

The parable of the prodigal son is proof that a believer can have salvation and then lose it, and then regain their salvation back again.

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Quite the contrary. The prodigal son never ceased to be a son. He rebelled. He sold his inheritance, but he never stopped being a son. He could return anytime. The evidence you cite disproves your own point.

Incidentally, none of his acquaintances during his travels ever had the privilege of returning, as he did, because they were not sons.