want to talk about OSAS?

Albion said:

Repentance and Conversion mean that we have been saved despite our sins.

If a person believes he is saved by "being good" then the idea of being in and out and in and out of God's graces would make sense, but that is contrary to the concept taught in the Bible, i.e. justification by Faith.

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Repentance comes before regeneration and conversion.

No repentance, no salvation.

Both faith and repentance precedes grace.

Most people have no real clue about works, or what the term means.

When Paul said we are saved by grace, via faith, not by works, he was specifically talking about works of the law of Moses.

Anytime in his epistles Paul mentions the law, it’s always about the body of law with its 613 rules and regulations, called the law of Moses.

We’re not saved by works of the law of Moses, therefore we don’t have to eat kosher foods, sacrifice animals, or any of the other 611 rules that are in it.

People ignorantly think anything a believer must do apart from the law of Moses is a work, then cite Ephesians 2:8-9 and claim there’s nothing at all a believer is required to do.

James on the other hand, talks about works, but not works of the law of Moses.

That there are two different kinds of works explains the apparent contradiction between Paul writing that Abraham was justified apart from works, and James writing that Abraham WAS justified by works, as are ALL MEN.

In fact works were PART OF Abraham’s justification and perfected his faith.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT?

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by WORKS a man is JUSTIFIED and NOT by faith ONLY.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Above, it states that though Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness, his works of obedience in sacrificing his son Isaac (as a test, before God stopped him), was an integral part of his justification, and his works perfected his faith.

There are works of obedience we are to do, as believers, apart from the law of Moses.

Swag365 said:

I'm sure that I've prayed some version of the "Sinner's prayer" back when I was a Protestant.

A better question is whether I will remain saved, if I choose to reject the Lord tomorrow or the next day.

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I'm sure that I've prayed some version of the "Sinner's prayer" back when I was a Protestant.
I never really like that prayer tbh. What value does it has, if we dont believe within the heart.

A better question is whether I will remain saved, if I choose to reject the Lord tomorrow or the next
The heart cant change. Apostasy is way more normal within people who only seek works and never understood what our lord did for us. Now you understand what I fear about lordship salvationists path.

Well, I most certainly need to repent of my sins. We can agree on that.
You need to admit you are sinner in order to be save. We repent not from our sins since it isnt possible in this lifetime and will give you a false understanding of your salvation, but from our unGodly hearts. Be honest, who thinks he will keep sinning in heaven.

I do my best to earn rewards in heaven, nevertheless I will never be worthy of the gift of salvation. My works are nothing, since Im as guilty as every sinner is. I put my trust in Christ alone, in faith alone for my salvation.

Michael Collum said:

Maturity is measured in Love, because by the love being made mature or perfect within us, we have confidence on the day of judgment.

I find obedience focus tends to have a very anti christian focus, making the person calling to obedience - to be obeyed, their interpretation - it has nothing to do with obeying God.

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Agreed (to some degree). The focus is not to be obedience, but Christ himself. Nor is the focus to be love (because inevitably we don't know what that is either), but Christ himself. But, "If you love me, keep my commandments."

Danigt22 said:

Im 100% sure.

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Well that's because you're 100% ignorant of what I believe (because you're not God, and cannot claim to know what's in my heart and mind), and you've just proved it, again - you're quite obviously determined to continue to falsely accuse me of saying things I did not say, or of believing things I do not believe - and the rest of your post I quote below proves it:

Danigt22 said:

It is offensive you seek doing good works for staying "save" when you already are "seal". Do it, out of love and gratitude to our Lord Jesus Christ.

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False accusation again. I did not say we need to do good works to stay saved. What I said was, we are not saved by our works - but our works can disqualify us - and I based that on the teaching and warnings of Jesus, which I quoted.

Enough said.

Mark Quayle said:

Agreed (to some degree). The focus is not to be obedience, but Christ himself. Nor is the focus to be love (because inevitably we don't know what that is either), but Christ himself. But, "If you love me, keep my commandments."

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Yep, there's obedience there, but it's learned so early that when a person comes along "wanting more" it's usually self motivated.

alllivesmatter said:

I would like to clear it up. As I said on another thread, To me how can you not believe in it? You have to keep being saved over and over again otherwise? So once isn't enough for you? That would seem to say that being saved is meaningless if you can't count on it to stick around.
Any theories, thoughts, etc?

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You can not lose salvation but you can throw it away.

Danigt22 said:

I never really like that prayer tbh. What value does it has, if we dont believe within the heart.

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No value.

The heart cant change.

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Yes it can.

Apostasy is way more normal within people who only seek works and never understood what our lord did for us. Now you understand what I fear about lordship salvationists path.

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A person who never understood what our Lord did for us, was not a believer in the first place, so he cannot commit apostasy.

Now, if you are implying that people who reject OSAS are more likely to completely reject the Christian faith than people who believe in OSAS, there is no evidence for that at all.

You need to admit you are sinner in order to be save.

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Yes. But there is not a single Christian on the planet Earth who does not admit that he is a sinner in need of a savior.

We repent not from our sins since it isnt possible in this lifetime and will give you a false understanding of your salvation, but from our unGodly hearts. Be honest, who thinks he will keep sinning in heaven.

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Well I think the repentance is fundamentally for having offended God, who is deserving of our love and obedience.

I do my best to earn rewards in heaven, nevertheless I will never be worthy of the gift of salvation. My works are nothing, since Im as guilty as every sinner is. I put my trust in Christ alone, in faith alone for my salvation.

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Yes, but no Christian anywhere believes that he deserves salvation, apart from the merits that our Lord Jesus earned for us by his sacrifice on the cross.

Bible Highlighter said:

Where in the Bible does it teach that you can not be forgiven by God and yet still saved?
That is what you want to be true for 1 John 1:9 and yet no verse in the Bible says that.
When God says that we are forgiven by confessing our sins in 1 John 1:9, He actually means that.

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It is monstrous to say that one can be saved and not be forgiven. Where did I say such a thing? I am holding my temper here, hoping you only misunderstood. That is what I want to be true? No sir, not me. Nor would I wish for such a thing.

You said, "When God says that we are forgiven by confessing our sins in 1 John 1:9, He actually means that."
Of course he actually means that! Where did I say otherwise? In fact, I have repeated that 1 John 1:9 DOES say the forgiveness is contingent upon the confession. The fact that the forgiveness was a completed past action is irrelevant to the question, unless perhaps one can use it to show that the confession of a believer is indeed going to happen, or that the habit of confession applies in stead of a one time, or case by case confession.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Well that's because you're 100% ignorant of what I believe (because you're not God, and cannot claim to know what's in my heart and mind), and you've just proved it, again - you're quite obviously determined to continue to falsely accuse me of saying things I did not say, or of believing things I do not believe - and the rest of your post I quote below proves it:

False accusation again. I did not say we need to do good works to stay saved. What I said was, we are not saved by our works - but our works can disqualify us - and I based that on the teaching and warnings of Jesus, which I quoted.

Enough said.

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I came not to judge, but to guide into grace. If you cant see your doctrine is a false gospel. I cant do nothing for you. You can not be disqualify from salvation, you are calling the lord Jesus Christ a liar.

John 6
"39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Swag365 said:

No value.

Yes it can.

A person who never understood what our Lord did for us, was not a believer in the first place, so he cannot commit apostasy.

Now, if you are implying that people who reject OSAS are more likely to completely reject the Christian faith than people who believe in OSAS, there is no evidence for that at all.

Yes. But there is not a single Christian on the planet Earth who does not admit that he is a sinner in need of a savior.

Well I think the repentance is fundamentally for having offended God, who is deserving of our love and obedience.

Yes, but no Christian anywhere believes that he deserves salvation, apart from the merits that our Lord Jesus earned for us by his sacrifice on the cross.

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Now, if you are implying that people who reject OSAS are more likely to completely reject the Christian faith than people who believe in OSAS, there is no evidence for that at all.
Ask them, ask the apostates. You will be amaze how many didnt believe in OSAS.

Yes. But there is not a single Christian on the planet Earth who does not admit that he is a sinner in need of a savior.
They never understood within their hearts.

Well I think the repentance is fundamentally for having offended God, who is deserving of our love and obedience.
You need to be save first. This comes after salvation. It has to do with the judgement seat of Christ. Dont fool yourself thinking it gives you merit over your salvation.

A person who never understood what our Lord did for us, was not a believer in the first place, so he cannot commit apostasy.
He believed in his head, never with his heart. Our lord Jesus Christ will never lose us. This is the will of the Father.

Yes, but no Christian anywhere believes that he deserves salvation, apart from the merits that our Lord Jesus earned for us by his sacrifice on the cross.
You are doing it, preaching works instead of the heart that lead into grace and mercy. We dont stop sinning to get closer to God, we get closer to God to sin less.

Swag365 said:

Yeah well if you are still going around murdering people and committing adultery, you might want to put an end to that.

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(Shortened because repeated in the post below this one).

The way our words - the words of those of us who do not believe in OSAS get twisted in a thread like this - is telling.

Danigt22 said:

I came not to judge, but to guide into grace. If you cant see your doctrine is a false gospel. I cant do nothing for you. You can not be disqualify from salvation, you are calling the lord Jesus Christ a liar.

John 6
"39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

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You came to judge all right - and you have done this with me - with your false accusations and twisting of my words.

So let's talk about examples of different types of sin that can cause individual believers to lose their salvation:-

Hypothetical example of type #1
So the guy becomes very attracted to a woman who is not his wife, but someone else's, and he's married, too. Pretty soon he realises the attraction is mutual. One Christian might commit and act of adultery and feel extremely guilty and remorseful about it immediately afterwards, confess it and repent of it. Another Christian might leave his wife, break the other woman's marriage, and then when the two of them later become a married couple, they confess their sins and excuse themselves all at the same time, live lives of drinking, partying and dope-smoking with non-Christian friends afterwards, believe in the Bible plus all sorts of new age stuff their friends believe in, mixing it all together, go to church on Sundays and feel quite fine about life, and still have faith in their salvation, "because OSAS".

Hypothetical example of type #2
One young Christian guy falls madly in love with a beautiful young woman. Problem is, she's Jewish and part of an Orthodox family. "I'll marry you", she says to him, "if you convert to Judaism and forsake your Christianity". So because he is so desperate not to lose the woman he loves, he thinks, "God knows I don't want to fornicate with this woman, or live in adultery with her. He understands that I love her, and we all worship the same God after all", and so he converts to be able to marry her. Then the Holy Spirit leaves him, and within two years he's no longer a believer, having found all sorts of reasons for believing there is no God or "Christianity" was a lie.

Hebrews 6:4-8 warns of the latter type of sin - falling away - and Jesus warns multiple times of the former type of sin, some examples of which I quoted in my first post which you responded to with false accusations against me, and there are many different examples of both types of sin of both lesser and greater extremes. There is a third type Jesus warned about: Denying the name of Christ before others - He said if we do that, He will deny our name before His Father (Matthew 10:33)

Jesus warned all of us that if we defile our garments, He will blot our names out of the book of life (Revelation 3:1-6).

Only those who have been saved by their faith in Jesus and belief in His gospel have garments to defile, and only Christians who are saved by the blood of Jesus through faith in Him, have their names written in the Lamb's book of life, so only saved Christians can have their names blotted out of the book of life.

But now I have been accused by yourself of saying that we remain saved by our good works, when what I said was that we are not saved by our works, but our works can disqualify us. A better way of saying that is, our works can cause us to lose our salvation.

Every Christian who hates his own sin, and strives against the flesh, striving to submit to the Lordship of Christ, is entering through the narrow gate, but many Christians choose the broad road, "because OSAS".

Doesn't mean we are saved by our works. Also doesn't mean all Christians who believe in OSAS will choose the broad road.

The way our words - the words of those of us who do not believe in OSAS get twisted in a thread like this - is telling.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

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(Shortened because repeated in the post below this one).

The way our words - the words of those of us who do not believe in OSAS get twisted in a thread like this - is telling.

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Quite honestly, I think that many of them are guilty of the very thing that they accuse other Christians of, but they are too blind to see it.

Many of them seem to love to portray others as people who "are trying to earn their salvation," in contrast to themselves, who like the purest of saints "only trust in the Lord with my heart".

They create a boogeyman and then contrast themselves to it, in order to feed their own pride.

Albion said:

Could not the believer, once saved, be thought to be safe from damnation, predestination aside?

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For your attention.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith,

2 Peter 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam,

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

2 Peter 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Ezekiel 33:18 “If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.”

Galations 5:4-7 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Hebrews 6:4 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 12:15-17 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

Hebrews 3:12-14,18 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end....And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?

Luke 9:62 Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Proverbs 21:16 “A man who strays from the path of understanding comes to rest in the company of the dead.”

Revelation 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Romans 11:21-22 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
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Danigt22 said:

They never understood within their hearts.

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You don't know that, and you are making yourself the judge of what is in other men's hearts. That is quite ironic considering how often you accuse others of being judgmental.

Dont fool yourself thinking it gives you merit over your salvation.

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No Christian anywhere believes that he deserves salvation, apart from the merits that our Lord Jesus earned for us by his sacrifice on the cross.

He believed in his head, never with his heart.

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More judgement I see. You are quite adept at it considering how much you accuse others of it.

Jesus is YHWH said:

See here and refute it

Jewish Wedding in Biblical Times is nothing like a wedding today in our culture

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I don’t care.

Jesus said Adam and Eve are the example of marriage in God’s eyes, that two leave mother and father and cleave together, and become one.

It doesn’t matter what ceremonial differences there are today, or 2,000 years ago: marriage at its core, per what Genesis says, quoted by Jesus, hasn’t changed since Adam and Eve.

And Paul also quoted the same Genesis Adam and Eve marriage passage that Jesus cited.

Ergo, I reject your spin.

And none of that has anything to do with the fact that believers today are married to Christ, and that adultery against Jesus breaks the marriage covenant, (which has never changed from Adam to today - adultery breaks the marriage bond) and if one is kicked out of the covenant, salvation is forfeited.

This is just a deliberate distraction from the many other points I made in the OSAS comments I posted,

chad kincham said:

I don’t care.

Jesus said Adam and Eve are the example of marriage in God’s eyes, that two leave mother and father and cleave together, and become one.

It doesn’t matter what ceremonial differences there are today, or 2,000 years ago: marriage at its core, per what Genesis says, quoted by Jesus, hasn’t changed since Adam and Eve.

And Paul also quoted the same Genesis Adam and Eve marriage passage that Jesus cited.

Ergo, I reject your spin.

And none of that has anything to do with the fact that believers today are married to Christ, and that adultery against Jesus breaks the marriage covenant, (which has never changed from Adam to today - adultery breaks the marriage bond) and if one is kicked out of the covenant, salvation is forfeited.

This is just a deliberate distraction from the many other points I made in the OSAS comments I posted,

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I see you are opposed to the truth on so many different levels.

I said yes because from what I gather from the current tradition of my interest (Episcopalian) adoption cannot be lost after baptism if the baptism is legit and done under the direction and the power of the Holy Spirit. Now, if one does not renounce Satan, repent and believe in the salvation and lordship of Jesus Christ then the baptism probably doesn't affect grace.

Something I wonder about OSAS theology is its relation to living. Can a person's purpose in the kingdom of God (or life) change and that person still be part of the kingdom of God or is the purpose tied to the salvation of the person?

Feel free to cite Scripture and tradition.

Edit: Sorry if this seems to be an attempt to detract, it is not.

Mark Quayle said:

It is monstrous to say that one can be saved and not be forgiven. Where did I say such a thing? I am holding my temper here, hoping you only misunderstood. That is what I want to be true? No sir, not me. Nor would I wish for such a thing.

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Most Eternal Security Proponents I have talked with believe that 1 John 1:9 is just dealing with a break in fellowship and it is not dealing with salvation. So you believe that by confessing sin you are being forgiven of sin and thus maintaining your salvation by confessing? If so, then I agree.

You said:

You said, "When God says that we are forgiven by confessing our sins in 1 John 1:9, He actually means that."
Of course he actually means that! Where did I say otherwise? In fact, I have repeated that 1 John 1:9 DOES say the forgiveness is contingent upon the confession. The fact that the forgiveness was a completed past action is irrelevant to the question, unless perhaps one can use it to show that the confession of a believer is indeed going to happen, or that the habit of confession applies in stead of a one time, or case by case confession.

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Do you believe 1 John 1:9 is dealing with a new convert coming to the faith for the first time, or do you believe 1 John 1:9 is dealing more with a believer who is trying to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? Oh, and do you believe in working out your salvation with fear and trembling according to Philippians 2:12?

chad kincham said:

I don’t care.

Jesus said Adam and Eve are the example of marriage in God’s eyes, that two leave mother and father and cleave together, and become one.

It doesn’t matter what ceremonial differences there are today, or 2,000 years ago: marriage at its core, per what Genesis says, quoted by Jesus, hasn’t changed since Adam and Eve.

And Paul also quoted the same Genesis Adam and Eve marriage passage that Jesus cited.

Ergo, I reject your spin.

And none of that has anything to do with the fact that believers today are married to Christ, and that adultery against Jesus breaks the marriage covenant, (which has never changed from Adam to today - adultery breaks the marriage bond) and if one is kicked out of the covenant, salvation is forfeited.

This is just a deliberate distraction from the many other points I made in the OSAS comments I posted,

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Marriage may be permanent in the sight of God, but it does not stop people getting divorced, or Christians separating themselves from God, even though they will die for it.
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