A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Bible Highlighter · Sep 30, 2020

SaintCody777 said:
I always thought that there's a doctrinal trend that eternal torment has to come with a Biblically literally interpretation of Luke 16

Luke 16 is referring to hell (a temporal place), and not the Lake of Fire (Which is the final end after the Judgment). For I get no indication that hell is eternal from reading Luke 16. If you do, then what makes you think that way?

You said:
and likewise soul sleep for annihiliation, as it is with SDAs, JWs, and Armstrongnites (eg United Church of God).

We can classify groups of religious beliefs into neat little boxes and categories and say that this belief must go with that other one, but truth is truth. The Bible does speak about a literal hell (Which is temporal), and it also speaks about the destruction of the wicked in the Lake of Fire. I mean, why call the Lake of Fire the second death if it is not related to the first one? For if a person's physical body perishes when they die, then it makes sense that the 2nd death is also related in the same way and the resurrection of the wicked will face a final destruction or annihilation (after they are punished for their sins).

You said:
But, still, if the unsaved are eventually going to be wiped out both body and soul, then would this not give the unsaved a hope that all their conscious pain and suffering would eventually end, even if lights would not be out for the next 2,000 years?

Those countries where the prisons are the harshest have a lower crime rate. They are not kept alive for all eternity to deter them doing that which is sinful or wrong. Being one day in that prison would be bad enough. So I disagree that that one has to be tortured for all eternity as an effective deterrent for the wicked. I mean, if you knew that you could be tortured for 30 days in prison for breaking the speed limit on the highways, I think that would be a really effective deterrent. I think most everyone would then obey the speed limit so as to avoid the horrible trauma of 30 days of intense abuse. So I am not buying the whole, “the wicked needs to be tortured for all eternity to deter them from their wicked ways” excuse.

In fact, you act like it is unfair justice that they will not be tortured for all eternity. You actually have things upside down or backwards, my friend. Imagine if a family member you love entered a country whereby they lied, and the government decided to torture them painfully for this crime for the rest of their life? Do you feel that would be fair justice? Remember, Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. But the problem is that you believe a finite amount of crimes or sins done here on Earth deserves infinite punishment (Which is overkill). This is not fair justice. It's wrong to believe God punishes the wicked waaaaay beyond what the crimes call for. Folks are just reading the Bible wrong and not thinking with their heart. My guess is that you didn't read my defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality. If you did, how can you ignore all the points I made with Scripture?

You said:
Doesn't Isaiah 48:22 say that there is no peace for the wicked?

Nowhere does Scripture say that non-existence is peace. I think our culture has filled our head with that idea when it implies such things on tombstones.

Anyways, you are reading ECT into this verse in Isaiah. Nowhere does it say they will be alive for all eternity. There is no peace if they are non existent. They are unaware of peace if they are gone. What Isaiah 48:22 is saying is that there is no peace for the wicked while they are alive or consciously aware of themselves. When they are destroyed, they are no longer aware.

You said:
And as for the popular view of hell, a place where demons torture people and Satan rules hell, which I believe you were trying to address, that's a straw-man argument against ECT.

Hell houses is something that many churches still do on Halloween.

You said:
For daulistic conditional immortality, it can be just as easily be said that demons torture people in hell right now, but the unsaved, all the demons, and Satan would cease to exist body and soul, after the Great White Throne of Judgement;

The Bible does not say if the wicked is tortured by demons. I prefer to only follow what the Word says about hell instead of trying to invent things that are not there. But yes, Dualistic Conditional Immortality (taken from the Bible) does teach a literal hell, and destruction of the wicked, the devil, and his minions in the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment).

You said:
whether it's a la Avengers Endgame snap or total destruction and wiping out of body and soul in the Lake of Fire.

I don't watch secular fantasy or popular movies anymore. My last Marvel cinematic viewing was Luke Cage in 2016. After that, I refused to see anymore because of the many sinful things promoted within them. I noticed how things were getting darker in big budget Hollywood movies. I used to be a huge Marvel comics fan, but I count these things as dung so that I may win Christ (See: Philippians 3:8).

SaintCody777 · Oct 1, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Luke 16 is referring to hell (a temporal place), and not the Lake of Fire (Which is the final end after the Judgment). For I get no indication that hell is eternal from reading Luke 16. If you do, then what makes you think that way?

What I meant here was that I always thought that belief in ECT always has to come hand in hand with a literal, present, and temporal Hades, as specifically described in Luke 16, until the Great White Throne Judgement. And I known and still aware of the difference between Hades and the final hell, which is the Lake of Fire aka Gehenna.
By the way, neither place was originally called "hell." Futhermore, the term hell would not exist for the next several hundred years, until the Norwegians came up with the goddess Hel, in their poems. That is where we got the English term of hell from. And this is why both Hades AND the Lake of Fire were called hell in the KJ family.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 2, 2020

SaintCody777 said:
What I meant here was that I always thought that belief in ECT always has to come hand in hand with a literal, present, and temporal Hades, as specifically described in Luke 16, until the Great White Throne Judgement. And I known and still aware of the difference between Hades and the final hell, which is the Lake of Fire aka Gehenna.

While this is not a 100% biblical fact, I believe in the possibility that the wicked may go through long periods of sleep in hell, and they are awakened at key points in time. For those who suffered in hell after dying at the end of the Millennium will not suffer as long as those who died in the global flood if hell is a place where the wicked has no rest or sleep of any kind. But if one believes in ECT, then fair justice really does not matter.

However, I know that God is into fair justice. For it is written:

“And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
(Luke 12:47-48).

If ECT was true, then we should expect to see some glimpses of that truth in the real world involving God's Word. But do we see God torturing His enemies for the rest of their lives in a painful way? Or do we see God's judgments happen quickly with them perishing?

You said:
By the way, neither place was originally called "hell." Futhermore, the term hell would not exist for the next several hundred years, until the Norwegians came up with the goddess Hel, in their poems. That is where we got the English term of hell from. And this is why both Hades AND the Lake of Fire were called hell in the KJ family.

If it is not the Word of God, then history is written by the victors. We really cannot know where words come from always. We can guess and maybe assume it is correct. But we really do not have a time machine to confirm such things. Even if such were the case, it does not mean that God cannot use a new word to describe things (that already exist in His Word).

There is a lot of hatred towards KJB Only. I believe we are living in the last days and nobody likes to be under any word of authority. Men like to alter God's Word to fit their lifestyle or sin, and or way of life. Modern Translations are clearly an attack upon the KJB if one were to do the study. Check out this thread here to learn more:

30 reasons why the KJB is the divine and perfect pure Word of God for today.

Side Note: Oh, and I am not interested in debating KJB as being a person's final word of authority. But if one is seeking the truth, they can find it if they ask God and they are diligent in finding the truth of His Word. This thread (in the link above) should help point you in the right direction if you want to seek out such a truth. Most do not want to head down that path. In fact, many even hate the KJB or KJB only.

friend of · Oct 12, 2020

I must commend you on your work here, TC. Good job.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 12, 2020

friend of said:
I must commend you on your work here, TC. Good job.

Thank you. This work was originally done for a close friend of mine.

Der Alte · Oct 13, 2020

SaintCody777 said:
What I meant here was that I always thought that belief in ECT always has to come hand in hand with a literal, present, and temporal Hades, as specifically described in Luke 16, until the Great White Throne Judgement. And I known and still aware of the difference between Hades and the final hell, which is the Lake of Fire aka Gehenna.
By the way, neither place was originally called "hell." Futhermore, the term hell would not exist for the next several hundred years, until the Norwegians came up with the goddess Hel, in their poems. That is where we got the English term of hell from. And this is why both Hades AND the Lake of Fire were called hell in the KJ family.

Your "hell" argument is a lexical fallacy, the "root fallacy.". What a word might, or might not, have meant in another country, in another language, 100s of years ago is irrelevant.
For example, when we say the English word "truck" we think of a large boxy vehicle for carrying large, heavy loads. Nobody, but nobody, thinks it means "vegetables," the original meaning.
Correct the English word "hell" does not occur in the O.T. or the N.T. but that is irrelevant none of our English words occur in either testament.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Der Alte · Oct 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
...
If ECT was true, then we should expect to see some glimpses of that truth in the real world involving God's Word. But do we see God torturing His enemies for the rest of their lives in a painful way? Or do we see God's judgments happen quickly with them perishing?...

Logical fallacy. God does not and cannot be expected to conform to every thought and idea of fallible man. We conform to God not Him to us.

Isaiah 55:8
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 64:4
4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

See, e.g. my post directly above.
The early church on "eternal punishment."

•Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
•Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
• Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
• The Martyrdom of Polycarp [student of John]
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
• Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
• Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
• Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
• Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
• Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
• Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
• Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
• Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
• Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 16, 2020

The Word of God and basic morality (i.e. the goodness of God) is the basis of my faith on this matter (or topic); I do not look to what Christian men of the past have said to form my belief. My authority is God's Word and not men.

Der Alte · Oct 16, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The Word of God and basic morality (i.e. the goodness of God) is the basis of my faith on this matter (or topic); I do not look to what Christian men of the past have said to form my belief. My authority is God's Word and not men.

Thus spake many men throughout history who think that they, and they alone, have the only correct interpretation of scripture e.g. Charles T. Russel, Joseph Smith, John Thomas, Herbert W. Armstrong, Vernon W. Howell, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, Felix Manalo etc. etc.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 16, 2020

Der Alte said:
Thus spake many men throughout history who think that they, and they alone, have the only correct interpretation of scripture e.g. Charles T. Russel, Joseph Smith, John Thomas, Herbert W. Armstrong, Vernon W. Howell, Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, Felix Manalo etc. etc.

Again, Christians follow the Bible as their final authority and not men. I don't care what some guy says in the past. They can be at fault and or in error even if they might be correct on other things.

Der Alte · Oct 16, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, Christians follow the Bible as their final authority and not men. I don't care what some guy says in the past. They can be at fault and or in error even if they might be correct on other things.

Anyone who does not have a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek is NOT following the Bible but what some guy in the past said the original languages "meant."

Bible Highlighter · Oct 16, 2020

Der Alte said:
Anyone who does not have a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek is NOT following the Bible but what some guy in the past said the original languages "meant."

I believe the Bible was preserved by an act of God beyond the intentions or short comings of the men who worked on it. Why? Psalms 12:6-7 in the KJB explains it. But go and turn in your neutered Modern Translation and it will sing a different story.

Der Alte · Oct 16, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe the Bible was preserved by an act of God beyond the intentions or short comings of the men who worked on it. Why? Psalms 12:6-7 in the KJB explains it. But go and turn in your neutered Modern Translation and it will sing a different story.

If the KJV is God's perfectly preserved word why has 800 words in the KJV either changed significantly in meaning or dropped out of use altogether?
E.g. “Doctors” in Luke 2:46,
“bewitchment” in Galatians 3:1
“carriages” in Acts 21:15
“instant” in Luke 23:23,
“leasing” in Psalm 5:6
“meet” in Mark 7:27,

Bible Highlighter · Oct 17, 2020

Der Alte said:
If the KJV is God's perfectly preserved word why has 800 words in the KJV either changed significantly in meaning or dropped out of use altogether?
E.g. “Doctors” in Luke 2:46,
“bewitchment” in Galatians 3:1
“carriages” in Acts 21:15
“instant” in Luke 23:23,
“leasing” in Psalm 5:6
“meet” in Mark 7:27,

It is ironic you quote the very verse that refutes you.
The number 46 actually confirms the KJB.
The meaning of the number 46 in the Bible is the temple or one's body.

In Luke chapter 2, we see this in verse 46.

"And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions." (Luke 2:46).

While the text is referring primarily to the physical temple here, the secondary spiritual meaning should not be missed.

"...They found him in the temple, ...." (Luke 2:46).

They found the him [The Living Word of God] in the temple (in His physical body or flesh) (i.e. For the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us - John 1:14).

What is also interesting is that the Bible mentions the words "the doctors" found him [Jesus].

"...the doctors...." (Luke 2:46).

While these were Doctors of what we would call today as: "Doctors of Theology," a secondary metaphorical meaning implies that they were like medical doctors. For a medical doctor's job is to examine the body and to see if everything is working normally and or to treat the sick or injured; And these men were examining the Word made flesh (John 1:14). These men were examining the Word made flesh and his words (Which were also called, "the Word of God."). Medical doctors examine physical bodies to make sure they are functioning okay. These doctors (Jews) were examining the Word made flesh.

To learn more about the number 46 and how it confirms the Holy Bible (the KJB) as being the Word of God, check out this CF thread here:

The Amazing Bible Number 46.

Anyways, this thread is not a discussion on the validity of the KJB as being the divine and pure Word of God. If you want to discuss that issue, start another thread or if you want to learn more about why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God, check out this thread here:

30 Reasons why the KJV is the divine and pure Word of God for today

The topic of this thread is about Dualistic Conditional Immortality. The basis for this belief is the Bible and not what men say about hell throughout history. The Bible is the sole authority on such matters and not men.

RickReads · Oct 21, 2020

Interesting thread but will take me a good while to look it over. Hell issues are probably the only area of Bible study I haven`t made up my mind about. It`s a tough one for me because I don`t like the topic and I don`t believe in questioning Gods justice. Makes it a battle to keep my mind in check.

I 've read some things of this nature from time to time. Nothing strong enough to pursuede me. I`ve tried to converse with people who had non traditional opinions on hell a few times but found them to be hostile to hard questions which ruined their chances of winning me over to their point of view.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 21, 2020

RickReads said:
Interesting thread but will take me a good while to look it over. Hell issues are probably the only area of Bible study I haven`t made up my mind about. It`s a tough one for me because I don`t like the topic and I don`t believe in questioning Gods justice. Makes it a battle to keep my mind in check.

I 've read some things of this nature from time to time. Nothing strong enough to pursuede me. I`ve tried to converse with people who had non traditional opinions on hell a few times but found them to be hostile to hard questions which ruined their chances of winning me over to their point of view.

I was on the fence for a long while between Eternal Torment and Conditional Immortality. For a while I believed that both were a possibility. Then one day, I ran into the verses that made Conditional Immortality undeniable. As for the issue of the existence of hell or the place of torments, I always believed that was a literal and real place.

As for running into folk that appear to be hostile:
I know what you mean. They could be right, but their attitude can be a big turn off. I think there are many in the Conditional Immortality camp that are pretty nice. But of course, at the end of the day, Scripture should ultimately win in what we choose to believe (as I am sure you would agree).

Peace, and blessings be unto you in the Lord today.

Der Alte · Oct 21, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
It is ironic you quote the very verse that refutes you.
The number 46 actually confirms the KJB.
The meaning of the number 46 in the Bible is the temple or one's body....

Total nonsense! If any of this were true surely someone of the prophets or disciples who wrote the Bible would have somehow learned about it and clearly explained it in scripture. But, alas, it was not done. Oh no, we must wait 2000+ years for some anonymous person online to tell us all about it.
There have been any number of people throughout history who have found numerical codes in the Bible. See e.g. see this book written by E.W. Bullinger more than 100 years ago "Number in Scripture"
https://www.levendwater.org/books/numbers/number_in_scripture_bullinger.pdf
And FYI at this link the above book has been debunked.
(PDF) E W Bullinger debunked: How Bullinger's numerical analysis ignored disconfirming evidence

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2020

Amazing. Even when the divine miraculous of His Word is shown, one still disbelieves. That's great, one can choose not to believe the amazing evidences like biblical numerics that backs up God's Holy Word if they feel they are trying to prove something. That is on them and they will have to give an account to God about it. I believe the Bible is holy as the cover says, and there are many evidences that back up His Word (Which includes biblical numerics). If anyone has done even a little bit of study into biblical numerics, they will see that one cannot deny the truth that God's Word uses these numbers to glorify His own Word. To ignore them is to simply disbelieve in the amazing divine nature of God's Holy Word, and one prefers to bury their head in the sand against such a beautiful truth.

Anyways, this is not really the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread is Dualistic Conditonal Immortality. Lets please stay on topic please.

Side Note:

Oh, and lets use the Bible to back up our positions here, as well.
Please no ecclesiology, or fancy articles. I posted many verses to prove Dualistic Conditional Immortality. It is up to the person to argue otherwise with Scripture and nothing else.

LW97Nils · Apr 12, 2023

Eternal life and immortality are not the same.

Der Alte · Apr 13, 2023

Bible Highlighter said:
Amazing. Even when the divine miraculous of His Word is shown, one still disbelieves. That's great, one can choose not to believe the amazing evidences like biblical numerics that backs up God's Holy Word if they feel they are trying to prove something. That is on them and they will have to give an account to God about it. I believe the Bible is holy as the cover says, and there are many evidences that back up His Word (Which includes biblical numerics). If anyone has done even a little bit of study into biblical numerics, they will see that one cannot deny the truth that God's Word uses these numbers to glorify His own Word. To ignore them is to simply disbelieve in the amazing divine nature of God's Holy Word, and one prefers to bury their head in the sand against such a beautiful truth.
Anyways, this is not really the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread is Dualistic Conditonal Immortality. Lets please stay on topic please.
Side Note:
Oh, and lets use the Bible to back up our positions here, as well.
Please no ecclesiology, or fancy articles. I posted many verses to prove Dualistic Conditional Immortality. It is up to the person to argue otherwise with Scripture and nothing else.

The same "numerics" has been used by Muslims to verify the Quran. One vs. in the Quran says that "the sun sets in a muddy pool."

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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