Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

iamlamad said:

The 5th seal martyrs are told they must wait for the full number killed as they were. But martyrs are killed in any number of ways. The way in which a martyr is put to death is not what is meant. They are a group of martyrs: church age martyrs. "killed as they were" means killed as church age martyrs. In other words, judgment will not come until the final church age martyr is killed. What will end the church age and make some martyr the very last to be killed as they were - as church age martyrs? It will be the pretrib rapture that ends the church age and triggers the start of the Day of the Lord.

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Where does scripture teach a "church age" that ends 7 (or however many) years before the second coming of Christ? Did Jesus forget to mention it here:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Jesus seemed to only know of 2 ages. The one where people get married and die and the one where people will no longer get married or die. No mention of a church age there. How do you reconcile that with your pre-trib view?

In short, if people just accept the truth that Revelation is chronological, and don't try to rearrange, they will be better off in doctrine. (Some parentheses are an exception. )

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Since you allow for exceptions to Revelation being chronological, such as the parenthetical sections, then why can you not also allow for the possibility that there are parallel sections within Revelation?

For example, how can the following 2 passages not be parallel?

Rev 11:15-18
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Rev 20:9-15
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Both passages speak of the time when God destroys the wicked on the earth once and for all. And it speaks of all of the dead being judged at that time. Clearly, the time that Rev 20:9-15 is fulfilled is when the seventh trumpet sounds. And since the resurrection of the dead and the end of death occurs at that time, it should be understood that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and Rev 21:1-4 happens during that event as well.

BABerean2 said:

Are you ignoring what Paul said about "genealogies" in Titus 3:9?

If you go to the modern State of Israel and ask those living there what tribe they are from, what kind of answer do you expect to get?
You will have the same luck finding a woolly mammoth roaming around in your back yard.
Both the pure bloodlines of the original twelve tribes, and the woolly mammoths are now extinct.


Who was James speaking to below, who were his "brethren" in the "faith".
Remember the fact that the Northern tribes were taken into captivity hundreds of years before the time of Christ.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Testing of Your Faith
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

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I did not write Revelation. John did. You can ask him the next time you get the chance.

I pointed out the only cultural significant point is virginity.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Well that will just bring us to another thing that we will never agree on - my answer to the "Why"? will be "because Satan is not bound yet" - but your position will immediately refute (in your mind) what I said - and another circle of arguments about why Satan is bound now vs why he isn't will ensue (and that's already gone round in this thread but won't be resolved).

So.. one thing I've realized is that we believe in the same God, worship the same Messiah as our Savior, understand that He is only our Lord, individually, to the extent that we submit to Him, individually, and we all believe in His return, and we all believe in the GWT and the new heavens and the new earth..

.. and we agree on many other things, but when it comes to this Bible that we all both cherish and believe in, and accept as the Word of God, we hear different messages with regard to certain things coming from God, and we seem divided into groups (well not seem, we are divided into groups which we call Pre-mil, A-mil etc)

.. and we are never going to agree.

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This is brilliant and absolute truth - with one stipulation: when we arrive where we will know as we have been known, THEN we WILL all agree!

I have to add this: that will be BEFORE the 1000 year reign! ;-)

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

OK I've read your post and it's just making it obvious again that if we interpret everything symbolically

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I don't interpret EVERYTHING symbolically. The fact of the matter is both amils and premils interpret some passages symbolically and some literally. We just don't agree on which passages should be interpreted symbolically and which should be interpreted literally sometimes.

instead of understanding that the symbols refer to real people, real things and real events

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Stop right there. Amils do not say that the symbols do not refer to real people, real things and real events. This is what frustrates me about you at times. You misrepresent amil sometimes. I'll have to assume it's not on purpose.

(example the great chain in the hand of the angel that binds Satan in the abyss) is a symbol of the fact that the devil is to be completely and utterly incapacitated in a place somewhere in the spirit realm that we cannot see but we know as the bottomless pit (I prefer abyss because it better reflects the Greek word and is easier and faster to type).

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Hey, something we agree on! I like the term abyss better, too. I'll sometimes say bottomless pit or pit as well just to make sure people more familiar with those terms know what I'm talking about.

It's symbols which speak of real events, real beings, real places which we cannot see with our human eyes but which God can see.

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Again, amil does not say otherwise. Sometimes, the scripture itself spells out for us what the symbols mean (the dragon symbolizes Satan, for example). Sometimes, it doesn't. Similar to how Jesus explained His parables sometimes and other times He didn't.

With regard to the part of Daniel which you brought up:

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

It is absolutely true that He has already received His everlasting dominion - but as Hebrews 2:8 tells us, we do not yet see all things placed under His feet.

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If you're trying to say you think that Hebrews 2:8 is saying that not all things are placed under His feet, then how do you explain that it says all things are under His feet?

Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

If the way you understand the part that says "But now we see not yet all things put under Him" means that you think not all things are currently under Him, then that would mean this verse is contradicting itself. The verse very clearly says that God "put all things in subjection under His feet" in reference obviously to Jesus. As a premil you like to think of scripture as meaning what it says, right? Most premils like to say that. Well, what else can we conclude from that statement that God put all things under Christ except that...God put all things under Christ? Without exception. As Paul made clear here:

Eph 1:19-23
19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Does this even remotely allow for the possibility that something is not under his feet? What name is there that has never been invoked? What rule and authority, power and dominion is not included in all rule and authority, power and dominion?

So, with all of this in mind, what in the world does the last sentence in Heb 2:8 mean? Was Paul (I believe he wrote Hebrews) contradicting himself? Of course not. So, "now we see not yet all things put under him" cannot mean that not all things were actually put under Him since Paul plainly said that all things were put under Him.

What I believe "now we see not yet all things put under him" means is simply that, while all current things are currently under Him, there are still future things (future people, rulers) that are not yet under Him because they have not been born yet. How else can we interpret that without contradicting what Paul said elsewhere?

The only other valid interpretation that I've seen is that it means while everything is under Christ's feet it's not something that we can actually see. I buy that as a possibility as well. But, what I can't accept is that Paul specifically said that all things are under His feet but somehow not all things are actually under His feet. No, that is not possible.

Why?

Well that will just bring us to another thing that we will never agree on - my answer to the "Why"? will be "because Satan is not bound yet" - but your position will immediately refute (in your mind) what I said - and another circle of arguments about why Satan is bound now vs why he isn't will ensue (and that's already gone round in this thread but won't be resolved).

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Wait a minute. Are you saying you actually think that Satan is not under Christ's feet (under His authority) right now? I'm pretty sure that's what you're saying. Say it isn't so! This is terribly sad. Of course Satan is under Christ's authority now!

Did you forget that Paul said that God put Christ "far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked"? I doubt that you did. Has Satan's name never been invoked? Of course it has. Is Satan somehow not included among "all rule and authority, power and dominion"? Of course he is.

So, I could not possibly disagree more with you if you think that Satan is not currently under Christ's feet. He most certainly is.

But, you know me. I don't like to just make claims without supporting scripture. So, here you go:

Matt 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Make no mistake, Jesus was telling Satan himself to get behind Him there. It's not as if He was calling Peter "Satan". He knew that Satan was influencing what Peter was thinking at that time, so He used His authority over Satan to tell him to scram. If Satan wasn't under His feet, then how could He have told him what to do?

Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

I believe these speak for themselves and clearly show Christ's authority over Satan.

So.. one thing I've realized is that we believe in the same God, worship the same Messiah as our Savior, understand that He is only our Lord, individually, to the extent that we submit to Him, individually, and we all believe in His return, and we all believe in the GWT and the new heavens and the new earth..

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I agree, so let's always keep that in mind. Those things are the most important though I do believe that having a proper understanding of Christ's status right now as King of His kingdom with all things under Him is important for Christians to understand.

.. and we agree on many other things, but when it comes to this Bible that we all both cherish and believe in, and accept as the Word of God, we hear different messages with regard to certain things coming from God, and we seem divided into groups (well not seem, we are divided into groups which we call Pre-mil, A-mil etc)

.. and we are never going to agree.

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We aren't? Your mind is made up then? Honestly, mine is and that's probably obvious. I was premil once, but I obviously changed my mind. Never say never.

I apologize if I have not got to answering all the points you point out, but it's once again late my part of this crazy planet and I'm too tired to go on now,

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I don't expect you to respond to all of my points. In one post you made you didn't respond to any of them, so that's why I said something about that. But, I certainly don't expect you to respond to all of them. We all only have so much spare time to post here and I understand that.

even though I would want to, out of respect - but I know that we are going to merely go into the same (the very same) arguments and counter-arguments regarding the meaning of the scriptures we quote from the same Bible we believe and cherish - and it's because our starting premise for interpreting these passages in question is completely different, and there is only common ground in very few things, such as that we all believe in the return of Christ, the GWT and the new heavens and the new earth.

God bless and good evening/afternoon/night (whatever time it is in your part of the planet).

I don't know if I want to debate this anymore or add to it - because I've realized for once and forever that Premils and Amils are only going to agree on this stuff when the Lord has returned, or maybe before that, when the beast ascends out of the abyss.

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It's completely up to you. We've covered a lot of ground. If there's any other topic related to all this that we haven't already discussed, then I'm open to discussing it. Or maybe if there's another angle to all this that we haven't looked at yet.

Anyway, God bless you, too.

Timtofly said:

I pointed out the only cultural significant point is virginity.

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2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


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Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Amil has the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Christ and refusal to worship the beast which ascended from the abyss, happening at the beginning of a symbolic thousand years, because it has to fit with a symbolic thousand years - which does not begin chronologically after the beast ascended out of the abyss (per Amil).

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You do not seem to understand the Amil position. They see Rev 20 correlating with the ongoing persecution of the saints, and seeing an intensification of persecution prior to the end. This persecution occurs through the opposition of Satan and the beast. The removal of the restraint relates to the global evangelization of the nations.

Spiritual Jew said:

The souls John saw there had already not worshipped the beast and "were slain for the word of God" before that. It doesn't say how long before. So, what point exactly are you making here?

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The point I'm making here, though I forgot to mention in that other post, I see two sets of martyrs in Revelation 20:4. These---them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God--would be the first group, and would be meaning the martyrs resting under the altar in Revelation 6, and would include martyrs, such as Stephen, as an example.

We have to keep in mind, Stephen's martyrdom was somewhat close to the time John received these visions, or at least closer than we would be now, and that when John received these visions, the status of the beast was 'is not'. Even per your position, when Stephen is martyred, you have both satan and the beast in the pit at the time. Assuming your position might be correct, this alone shows that Stephen wasn't martyred during when the beast was, nor was martyred when it ascends out of the pit, but is martyred when it is not.

The other group of martyrs would be these---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. And these would be meaning---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were--and that they are martyred once the beast ascends out of the pit.

Spiritual Jew said:

This is all based on your assumption that the 42 months refers to a future time (which not all amils believe, including me) and that the 42 months is the only time in which people worship the beast, but what about when the beast "was" (not in the pit - Rev 17:8).

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It is then your position, that when the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 for not worshiping the beast, they were martyred during a time before John received the visions, during when the beast was, and not during when the beast ascends out of the pit, correct?

Assuming that is correct, this would have to mean, at least how I see it, so please keep that in mind, that when the beast was, meaning a time before John received these visions, that a beast would have to first rise out of the sea, where one of it's heads has a deadly wound and is healed, and that another beast has to rise out of the earth. So, is that your position, that those things already occurred when the beast was, thus not meaning post John receiving these visions instead? I'm guessing probably not, yet I have to ask, regardless, the fact your position seems to be that the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 are martyred when the beast was, and not when it ascends out of the pit instead.Below would be some of the reasons I asked that to begin with, which then shows it makes zero sense that the martyrs in question in Revelation 20:4 are martyred during a time when the beast was.

We have to keep in mind, until the 2nd beast does all the following first, there couldn't possibly be any of these things already in existence before he even does the following.

Revelation 13:14----saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Does not verse 14 say---they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. How is that even possible unless the beast that rises out of the sea, rises out of the sea first, with it having one of his heads with a deadly wound that was healed?

Look at what verse 16 says---And he causeth all---meaning the 2nd beast. Until this 2nd beast rises out of the earth, and the first one out of the sea, this 2nd beast couldn't possibly be causing anyone to do any of these things, before he is even on the world stage.

This brings us back to the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Let's consider this part first---which not worshipped--his image. How could they even have a choice in the matter unless Revelation 13:14 is fulfilled first? Why would they be martyred for refusing to worship it's image, unless there is first an image to refuse to worship?

Let's now consider this part--- neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Why would they be martyred for refusing to do that if the 2nd beast is not even on the world stage yet, where we are told in Revelation 13:16-17---And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name?

The fact those verses tell us he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, and the fact the saints in Revelation 20:4 refused all of this, thus were martyred for refusing to do all of these things, in what way would one be arriving at a logical conclusion if they conclude the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4 has zero to do with either of the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13?

Spiritual Jew said:

Stop right there. Amils do not say that the symbols do not refer to real people, real things and real events. This is what frustrates me about you at times. You misrepresent amil sometimes. I'll have to assume it's not on purpose.

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Exactly. I totally agree.

Spiritual Jew said:

Where does scripture teach a "church age" that ends 7 (or however many) years before the second coming of Christ? Did Jesus forget to mention it here:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Jesus seemed to only know of 2 ages. The one where people get married and die and the one where people will no longer get married or die. No mention of a church age there. How do you reconcile that with your pre-trib view?

Since you allow for exceptions Revelation being chronological, such as the parenthetical sections, then why can you not also allow for the possibility that there are parallel sections within Revelation?

For example, how can the following 2 passages not be parallel?

Rev 11:15-18
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Rev 20:9-15
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Both passages speak of the time when God destroys the wicked on the earth once and for all. And it speaks of all of the dead being judged at that time. Clearly, the time that Rev 20:9-15 is fulfilled is when the seventh trumpet sounds. And since the resurrection of the dead and the end of death occurs at that time, it should be understood that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and Rev 21:1-4 happens during that event as well.

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Where does scripture teach a "church age" that ends 7 (or however many) years before the second coming of Christ?
Did Jesus forget to mention it here: I am wise to trick questions. Why would ANYONE expect to find everything written in one passage? The truth is, we don't form doctrine from isolated passages but from EVERY end time passage - and they all agree. (It is our understanding that does not agree.) You should know where the 7 years comes from, but I will play along: it is the final week of Daniel's 70th week. Then it is confirmed 7 times by scriptures speaking of the last half of the week; two in Daniel and 5 in Revelation.

Just what "age" was Jesus speaking of? I submit the age He and they were living in. It has not ended. Daniel prophesied that their "time" would end with 70 weeks (of years). However, a parenthesis was inserted into Jewish age that would end with the 70th week. That parenthesis is the Gentile church age. Yes, the dispensation of grace. It is a time for the fulness of the Gentiles to come in.

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Since the church age is as a parenthesis inserted into the Jewish age, because they, as a nation, did not accept Him as their Messiah, it - the dispensation of grace, will end first, at the pretrib rapture. Then "time" will go right back to Jewish time and the age Jesus spoke of. But it will then be the long promised Day of the Lord. After it begins - at the 6th seal - then the final and 70th week will begin with the 7th seal. The 70th and final "week" of the 70 weeks prophecy will finally end the Jewish age Jesus spoke of, and then "time" will go to the "age to come."

The one where people get married and die and the one where people will no longer get married or die. Good point: people are still dying. We have not arrived at "the age to come."

then why can you not also allow for the possibility that there are parallel sections within Revelation?

Good point. In fact, the mention of the first 42 months is of a COUNTDOWN to the end of the week. Then when the 1260 days of witnessing was mentioned, as the second countdown to the end of the week, we have TWO PARALLEL countdowns running parallel to each other. Then when the 1260 days of fleeing was mentioned as the 3rd countdown, then THREE parallel times. In all, John has 5 countdowns all counting down to the end running parallel. Then add to that John's narrative of other events taking place during the same time and we have 6 parallels.

However, once a countdown is started, it seems it is forgotten. John only shows us the end of two: the end of the 1260 days of witnessing and the end of the 42 months of authority. John's narrative though takes us right through time, from Jesus' death and then ascension and the start of the church age to the end of the church age, to the end of the Jewish age at the 7th vial, to the sheep and goat judgment to the 1000 year reign and then to the white throne judgment and on into eternity. I find no backpedaling, or no flashbacks. However, There is some prophecy given by the elders of future events found later in the book.

Make no mistake on parallels: the trumpets do not parallel the seals or the vials, and the vials to not parallel the seals or the trumpets. These are consecutive events, seals first, then trumpets, then vials.

how can the following 2 passages not be parallel?
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,
...The time has come for judging the dead
and
Rev 20:9-15
...12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.

The first and primary way to know these are not parallel is to understand John's chronology: the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the 70th week, and the events of chapter 20 come after the week has finished. How can two events separated by TIME be the same events? It would be impossible.

Perhaps you did not notice that in chapter 11, the time of judging is a PROPHECY of future events given by the elders: it is not a part of John's narrative per se; he heard the prophecy so added it. We recognize it as prophecy because we find the events shown later on in the book.

Did you notice what Jesus said: that those in Judea should flee the moment they see the abomination - and we find that fleeing moment in 12:6? Therefore that verse, 12:6, might be two or three seconds after the abomination, giving them a second or two of reaction time. If we back up from 12:6 looking for the abomination, we won't find it because God did not show it to John. But if we look for a real time MARKER, we find the 7th trumpet.

You see, one time I was just minding my own business, reading Dan. 9:27, and when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" God spoke: I heard His voice (it sounded as if all the room would hear) and His words: "You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation." I was instantly "in the spirit" but I heard my spirit man ask him how I would find that. And He explained how. I looked for a marker. I found the 7th seal. Since He also told me I could find "the entire 70th week clearly marked," In instantly flipped my bible to the 7th vial and read "it is done." I knew then I had found the entire 70th week "clearly marked." But I flipped my bible to the 7th seal and read of the 30 minutes of silence. I was sure then that I had found the entire 70th week "clearly marked."

It is no accident then that the 7th trumpet is found in the midst of 5 different countdowns to the end of the week. Chapters 11, 12, and 13 are midpoint chapters.

Clearly, the time that Rev 20:9-15 is fulfilled is when the seventh trumpet sounds. No. What is here in chapter 11 is a PROPHECY given by the elders of future events. Chapter 12 shows us two countdowns to the end that must be at the midpoint. Chapter 13 has one more. These are midpoint chapters.

And since the resurrection of the dead and the end of death occurs at that time, it should be understood that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and Rev 21:1-4 happens during that event as well.
This is wishful thinking at best. The truth is, turn a page in Revelation and TIME has passed. Not the real time of reading, but the time John is writing of.
1 Cor. 15 is indeed tied to another passage, but it is 1 Thes. 4 & 5. There Paul gives TIMING: HIS rapture, the one God revealed to him for the church, will come just before the Day of the Lord and the start of wrath. That is found at the 6th seal, before any part of the 70th week. That is why I believe in pretrib. I SEE IT in the scripture. John then saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7.

The end of death for the church comes before the end of death for the OT saints.

I suspect you and I will continue to disagree: we read scriptures differently.

DavidPT said:

We have to keep in mind, Stephen's martyrdom was somewhat close to the time John received these visions, or at least closer than we would be now, and that when John received these visions, the status of the beast was 'is not'. Even per your position, when Stephen is martyred, you have both satan and the beast in the pit at the time. Assuming your position might be correct, this alone shows that Stephen wasn't martyred during when the beast was, nor was martyred when it ascends out of the pit, but is martyred when it is not.

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You seem incapable of setting aside your opinion of Revelation 20 in order to consider what Scripture actually says and what Amils think in turn. Until you do that you will continue to foist your faulty literalist future Premil millennium thinking upon Amil. This is frustrating to say the least.

The beast system is that demonic spirit/influence/empire overseeing every wicked kingdom upon earth from the beginning.

Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:3 says, “So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

Revelation 17:7 says, “And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.”

Revelation 17:8 states, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

What are these 7 heads of the beast? We do not have to guess.

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

The beast is much greater and larger than what many think. He relates to the broad world system that influences all the unelect. He has 7 heads that relate to 7 kingdoms. The 7 mountains corroborate this. Mountains in Scripture are often identified with kingdoms.

That worldly beast that the woman rides embodies the wickedness that controls the kingdoms of this world. It is the system that is energized by the spirit of this world.

Throughout Revelation this religious entity is seen to work closely in conjunction with, and for the benefit of, this powerful-based.

Like the beast, the harlot cannot relate to a single human being but rather to a spiritual entity that functions throughout the nations and exercises untold global influence.

Revelation 17:12 says, “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”

Revelation 17:16 says, “And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.”

The seven heads, which are mountains, represent seven worldly kingdoms. Of these 7 kingdoms, 5 are prior to John’s prophecy, 1 present to him and 1 is yet future. Moreover, the 7th kingdom is predicted to manifest for “a short space.” Interestingly, there is an 8th kingdom. This is the beast himself, obviously rising up in his own right rather than in a delegated sense (through other evil earthly empires) like before.

The beast is said to integral to the other 7 previous kingdoms; this beast “was” before John – obviously manifesting through the 5 tributary kingdoms before John, he “is” to John in the form of the 1 kingdom in existence at the time of John, and 1 is still future to John as it has “not yet come.” Additional to this we learn, “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” The 7 kingdoms are 7 heads on the beast – thus the beast is described as being “of the seven.” The 7 heads are part of this being. The number seven is significant as it normally represents completeness in Scripture. This book places the beast within the complete scheme of this dark anti-Christ reign.

This beast obviously represents the overall influence of Satan from which all the other individual kingdoms emanate throughout time. At the cross the beast went “into perdition” being curtailed in his wholesale deluding of the Gentile people. Notwithstanding, the beast is associated with the reign of evil on this earth throughout this intra-Advent period, although restrained from what the beast would have desired through the Gospel influence. Prior to the end this beast is released from his spiritual restraints and moves to the fore. This is his time to finally flex his muscles. This is his final throw.

As he starts to perpetrate his anti-Christ agenda, the beast establishes “ten kings” to do his dirty work. These operate from within the beast kingdom. They are described as the beast’s “ten horns.” This reign of havoc only seems to be short: they are said to “receive power as kings one hour with the beast.” There is unity amongst these kings, “These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.” These emissaries of the devil's kingdom promote and enforce the devil's anti-Christ system.

We need to piece together this symbolism and align it with history in order to establish its full meaning. Firstly, Rome was one of the four kingdoms Daniel saw. It was also the existing kingdom when John received this prophesy here. John sees five great kingdoms before the one existing in his day (Rome). Three of the five former kingdoms probably refer to Daniel’s kingdoms: Babylon, Media and Persia and Grecia. This leaves two more – obviously subsequent to them. I believe these refer to the Egyptian Dynasty and the Assyria rule.

(1) Egyptian empire
(2) Assyrian empire
(3) Babylonian empire
(4) Media and Persia empire
(5) Greek empire (five were)
(6) Roman empire (one is existing at the time of the writing of Rev)
(7) One further evil empire (between Rome and the beast at the end)
(8) The beast.

Simon Kistermaker suggests a slight modification:

· Assyrian empire
· Babylonian empire
· Neo-Babylonian empire
· Media and Persia empire
· Greek empire (five were)
· Roman empire (one is existing at the time of the writing of Rev)
· One further evil empire (between Rome and the beast at the end)
· The beast.

DavidPT said:

The point I'm making here, though I forgot to mention in that other post, I see two sets of martyrs in Revelation 20:4. These---them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God--would be the first group, and would be meaning the martyrs resting under the altar in Revelation 6, and would include martyrs, such as Stephen, as an example.

We have to keep in mind, Stephen's martyrdom was somewhat close to the time John received these visions, or at least closer than we would be now, and that when John received these visions, the status of the beast was 'is not'. Even per your position, when Stephen is martyred, you have both satan and the beast in the pit at the time. Assuming your position might be correct, this alone shows that Stephen wasn't martyred during when the beast was, nor was martyred when it ascends out of the pit, but is martyred when it is not.

The other group of martyrs would be these---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. And these would be meaning---their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were--and that they are martyred once the beast ascends out of the pit.




It is then your position, that when the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 for not worshiping the beast, they were martyred during a time before John received the visions, during when the beast was, and not during when the beast ascends out of the pit, correct?

Assuming that is correct, this would have to mean, at least how I see it, so please keep that in mind, that when the beast was, meaning a time before John received these visions, that a beast would have to first rise out of the sea, where one of it's heads has a deadly wound and is healed, and that another beast has to rise out of the earth. So, is that your position, that those things already occurred when the beast was, thus not meaning post John receiving these visions instead? I'm guessing probably not, yet I have to ask, regardless, the fact your position seems to be that the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4 are martyred when the beast was, and not when it ascends out of the pit instead.Below would be some of the reasons I asked that to begin with, which then shows it makes zero sense that the martyrs in question in Revelation 20:4 are martyred during a time when the beast was.

We have to keep in mind, until the 2nd beast does all the following first, there couldn't possibly be any of these things already in existence before he even does the following.

Revelation 13:14----saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


Does not verse 14 say---they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. How is that even possible unless the beast that rises out of the sea, rises out of the sea first, with it having one of his heads with a deadly wound that was healed?

Look at what verse 16 says---And he causeth all---meaning the 2nd beast. Until this 2nd beast rises out of the earth, and the first one out of the sea, this 2nd beast couldn't possibly be causing anyone to do any of these things, before he is even on the world stage.

This brings us back to the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4---and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Let's consider this part first---which not worshipped--his image. How could they even have a choice in the matter unless Revelation 13:14 is fulfilled first? Why would they be martyred for refusing to worship it's image, unless there is first an image to refuse to worship?

Let's now consider this part--- neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Why would they be martyred for refusing to do that if the 2nd beast is not even on the world stage yet, where we are told in Revelation 13:16-17---And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name?

The fact those verses tell us he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, and the fact the saints in Revelation 20:4 refused all of this, thus were martyred for refusing to do all of these things, in what way would one be arriving at a logical conclusion if they conclude the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4 has zero to do with either of the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13?

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David, all I can say in response to this is that you're just not getting my view. Maybe I didn't explain it clearly enough, I don't know.

Let me just say this. Just as I believe the dragon (Satan) being in the pit does not render him without any ability to do anything at all, but rather restrains his ability to do certain things, I believe the same about the beast being in the pit.

So, I do not limit the time where the beast is able to do the things mentioned in Rev 13 to only a future time or only a time prior to when John wrote the book. Rev 13 indicates that all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast. You may get a chuckle out of this, but I take that literally. I mean, very literally. As in, literally all people from all time whose names are not written in the book of life, worship the beast. I see the mark of the beast as being the opposite of the seal of God. It's a figurative term and identifies those who belong to Satan and his beast rather than to God.

This is probably the right time to explain to you how I understand the beast, at least generally speaking. I see the beast as being the secular world power that is in place at any given time in history. I think of it the same as how Jesus refers to "the world" in this passage:

John 15:18-19
18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

In this context, "the world" refers to the world system that opposes God and hates Christ and His followers.

The sense in that the beast "was" before John wrote the book is that it was loose from the abyss and able to wreak havoc on the earth without restraint. Then Jesus came and that was no longer the case as verses like Heb 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8 indicate (remember, the beast gets its power from the dragon, so the effect Christ had on Satan (the dragon) had an effect on the beast (world) as well.

So, I see the dragon and beast as having been put in the pit through the power of Christ's death and resurrection. It didn't render them completely powerless in general, but it made them powerless in regards to stopping the spread of the gospel that sets people free from their sins and fear of death throughout the world. The dragon and beast (Satan and the evil world system) can still persecute God's people, but they can't prevent more people from entering God's kingdom. They can't keep people in spiritual darkness and in slavery to the fear of death like they used to in OT times (Heb 2:14-15).

Spiritual Jew said:

Thanks! I guess that means I'm not a fake amil then. Good to know.

A passage that talks about a dragon being chained and cast into an abyss/bottomless pit is clear to you. Okay, sure. Reading Rev 20 is no different than reading a newspaper or magazine article, right? Very clear and straightforward without any figurative language to discern or anything like that, right?

I agree. I used to have the preconception that what is described in Rev 20 must chronologically follow what is described in Rev 19 because the number 20 comes after the number 19 chronologically. Then, later, I noticed other parts of Revelation weren't chronological (like Rev 11 and 12), so it didn't make sense for me to assume that about Rev 19 and 20.

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A passage that talks about a dragon being chained and cast into an abyss/bottomless pit is clear to you. We already know the "Dragon" is Satan, from chapter 12. We the bible gives very little on is the bottomless pit. We really don't need to understand what is meant by "bottomless." It will suffice as a prison that can be locked. If God tells us Satan can be chained up, I don't struggle trying to believe it: I just DO believe it. If God can create a spiritual being such as the devil, certainly He can create a way to bind him.

The point is, there is going to be a thousand years where Satan (nor any demon) will be allowed to deceive or even pester anyone. Why is this difficult to believe?

I used to have the preconception that what is described in Rev 20 must chronologically follow what is described in Rev 19 because the number 20 comes after the number 19 chronologically. That was wise thinking!

other parts of Revelation weren't chronological (like Rev 11 and 12) That was only because you did not recognize that John used parentheses and one is found in 11:4 through 11:13. When you consider that as a parenthesis, John's chronology is perfect. John introduces us to the two witnesses in verse 3, but then takes us on a side journey down the last half of the week with them only. When he finishes his side journey or "rabbit trail" He is right back at the exact midpoint of the week. (Verse 11:1 is probably 3.5 days before the midpoint.)

Then Revelation 12 has another parenthesis: the first 5 verses that talk about Jesus and how the devil used King Herod to try and kill him as a child. Other than that, Rev. 12 is all about the midpoint of the week and then what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week.

iamlamad said:

A passage that talks about a dragon being chained and cast into an abyss/bottomless pit is clear to you. We already know the "Dragon" is Satan, from chapter 12. We the bible gives very little on is the bottomless pit. We really don't need to understand what is meant by "bottomless." It will suffice as a prison that can be locked. If God tells us Satan can be chained up, I don't struggle trying to believe it: I just DO believe it. If God can create a spiritual being such as the devil, certainly He can create a way to bind him.

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But the problem is that John actually had a vision of a dragon being physically chained and cast into a physical pit, not Satan himself. It's all symbolic.

But, if you still want to insist that Satan himself is locked in a pit somewhere, so be it. No idea how that can be the case for a spiritual being like Satan.

The point is, there is going to be a thousand years where Satan (nor any demon) will be allowed to deceive or even pester anyone. Why is this difficult to believe?

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It wouldn't be difficult to believe if it was true. But, it's not because the rest of scripture does not teach such a thing. To interpret Rev 20 in that way contradicts a great deal of other scripture. That is the real problem.

I used to have the preconception that what is described in Rev 20 must chronologically follow what is described in Rev 19 because the number 20 comes after the number 19 chronologically. That was wise thinking!

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No, it wasn't. Because I also thought Rev 12 followed Rev 11 chronologically back then and that is clearly not the case.

other parts of Revelation weren't chronological (like Rev 11 and 12) That was only because you did not recognize that John used parentheses and one is found in 11:4 through 11:13. When you consider that as a parenthesis, John's chronology is perfect. John introduces us to the two witnesses in verse 3, but then takes us on a side journey down the last half of the week with them only. When he finishes his side journey or "rabbit trail" He is right back at the exact midpoint of the week. (Verse 11:1 is probably 3.5 days before the midpoint.)

Then Revelation 12 has another parenthesis: the first 5 verses that talk about Jesus and how the devil used King Herod to try and kill him as a child. Other than that, Rev. 12 is all about the midpoint of the week and then what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week.

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It doesn't make sense to me that you could recognize these parentheses, but still not allow for the possibility of there being parallel sections in the book as well.

Spiritual Jew said:

Thanks! I guess that means I'm not a fake amil then. Good to know.


Wrong. We all (premils and amils) believe it means what it says. We just don't agree on what it means. Since it includes figurative language, it does not make any sense to think we should read it the same as a clear, straightforward passage that does not contain figurative language.

It would not be difficult if it was contained within a book that did not contain a great deal of figurative language. But, Revelation obviously does.

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If it means what is says, why then do you struggle when it speaks of a thousand years? Why can't God tell of a real thousands years and people understand it as that? Question: if you allowed a beginning reader to read it, would they imagine it was not literal? I will have my 11 year old daughter read it when she gets home.
Question: I am going to paste in some writings from the Jews, some of which it is believed was written way back in the days of Moses.


The question is, if you knew this and it was in the back of your mind that these things were written and believed by Jacob's descendants thousands of years ago, would it change the way you read and understand Rev. 20? Perhaps it would not see as figurative language, But John telling is very clearly what will come.

Revelation obviously does. I think it contains more very clear language. Anything that makes sense in its literal sense to me, should be taken as literal and not figurative.

iamlamad said:

Where does scripture teach a "church age" that ends 7 (or however many) years before the second coming of Christ?
Did Jesus forget to mention it here: I am wise to trick questions. Why would ANYONE expect to find everything written in one passage? The truth is, we don't form doctrine from isolated passages but from EVERY end time passage - and they all agree. (It is our understanding that does not agree.)

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I agree with that and have made the same point many times. I was not trying to trick you. I genuinely don't understand why Jesus would not have mentioned the church age in that passage if there was such a thing. Do you have any guesses as to why He didn't?

You should know where the 7 years comes from, but I will play along:

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I didn't say I didn't know where it came from. I understand the pre-trib view well. I've never believed in it, but I understand what it teaches (not just the pre-trib rapture but everything else that dispensationalism teaches as well).

Just what "age" was Jesus speaking of? I submit the age He and they were living in. It has not ended.

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Exactly. It seems to me that there were only 2 ages that were worth pointing out in His mind. Seems like the church age, if there is such a thing, would be a significant enough age for Jesus to have mentioned as well. That's all I'm saying. He never referred to it in any other verse, either. Which is interesting.

Daniel prophesied that their "time" would end with 70 weeks (of years). However, a parenthesis was inserted into Jewish age that would end with the 70th week. That parenthesis is the Gentile church age. Yes, the dispensation of grace. It is a time for the fulness of the Gentiles to come in.

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Since the church age is as a parenthesis inserted into the Jewish age, because they, as a nation, did not accept Him as their Messiah, it - the dispensation of grace, will end first, at the pretrib rapture. Then "time" will go right back to Jewish time and the age Jesus spoke of. But it will then be the long promised Day of the Lord. After it begins - at the 6th seal - then the final and 70th week will begin with the 7th seal. The 70th and final "week" of the 70 weeks prophecy will finally end the Jewish age Jesus spoke of, and then "time" will go to the "age to come."

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Honestly, I find all of that be convoluted and it makes no sense to me at all. But, we can respectfully agree to disagree on that.

The one where people get married and die and the one where people will no longer get married or die. Good point: people are still dying. We have not arrived at "the age to come."[/quote]I agree, but let's talk about this if you don't mind. What do you believe is the age to come (the next age to come after this one)? Is it not the one where people will not get married and won't die? Isn't that a clear description of the new heavens and new earth rather than a temporal earthly millennial kingdom age?

then why can you not also allow for the possibility that there are parallel sections within Revelation?

Good point. In fact, the mention of the first 42 months is of a COUNTDOWN to the end of the week. Then when the 1260 days of witnessing was mentioned, as the second countdown to the end of the week, we have TWO PARALLEL countdowns running parallel to each other. Then when the 1260 days of fleeing was mentioned as the 3rd countdown, then THREE parallel times. In all, John has 5 countdowns all counting down to the end running parallel. Then add to that John's narrative of other events taking place during the same time and we have 6 parallels.

However, once a countdown is started, it seems it is forgotten. John only shows us the end of two: the end of the 1260 days of witnessing and the end of the 42 months of authority. John's narrative though takes us right through time, from Jesus' death and then ascension and the start of the church age to the end of the church age, to the end of the Jewish age at the 7th vial, to the sheep and goat judgment to the 1000 year reign and then to the white throne judgment and on into eternity. I find no backpedaling, or no flashbacks. However, There is some prophecy given by the elders of future events found later in the book.

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Whoa. I'm sorry, but I can't follow all of that. I don't even know how to respond to that, honestly. Again, let's just respectfully agree to disagree on how things are going to shake out in the future.

how can the following 2 passages not be parallel?

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15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,
...The time has come for judging the dead
and
Rev 20:9-15
...12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.

The first and primary way to know these are not parallel is to understand John's chronology: the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the 70th week, and the events of chapter 20 come after the week has finished. How can two events separated by TIME be the same events? It would be impossible.

Perhaps you did not notice that in chapter 11, the time of judging is a PROPHECY of future events given by the elders: it is not a part of John's narrative per se; he heard the prophecy so added it. We recognize it as prophecy because we find the events shown later on in the book.

Did you notice what Jesus said: that those in Judea should flee the moment they see the abomination - and we find that fleeing moment in 12:6? Therefore that verse, 12:6, might be two or three seconds after the abomination, giving them a second or two of reaction time. If we back up from 12:6 looking for the abomination, we won't find it because God did not show it to John. But if we look for a real time MARKER, we find the 7th trumpet.

You see, one time I was just minding my own business, reading Dan. 9:27, and when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" God spoke: I heard His voice (it sounded as if all the room would hear) and His words: "You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation." I was instantly "in the spirit" but I heard my spirit man ask him how I would find that. And He explained how. I looked for a marker. I found the 7th seal. Since He also told me I could find "the entire 70th week clearly marked," In instantly flipped my bible to the 7th vial and read "it is done." I knew then I had found the entire 70th week "clearly marked." But I flipped my bible to the 7th seal and read of the 30 minutes of silence. I was sure then that I had found the entire 70th week "clearly marked."

It is no accident then that the 7th trumpet is found in the midst of 5 different countdowns to the end of the week. Chapters 11, 12, and 13 are midpoint chapters.

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Again, I can't follow what you're saying.

Can you just answer this without going on any tangents? Does the 7th trumpet not signal the time when the dead are judged and when God "destroys those who destroy the earth" (Rev 11:18)? If so, isn't that also what we see described in Rev 20:9-15 as well? Please answer as directly as you can without talking about the 70th week and all that. Of course, you know that I believe the 70th week was fulfilled long ago.

But, let's stick to what Rev 11:15-18 says will happen at the seventh trumpet and how it is different from what is described in Rev 20:9-15. Seems the same to me, but please explain (without talking about the 70th week and other things) how that text isn't saying the seventh trumpet signals the time that the resurrection of the dead and the judgment takes place, as I believe it clearly does.

Clearly, the time that Rev 20:9-15 is fulfilled is when the seventh trumpet sounds.

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No. What is here in chapter 11 is a PROPHECY given by the elders of future events. Chapter 12 shows us two countdowns to the end that must be at the midpoint. Chapter 13 has one more. These are midpoint chapters.

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I'm trying desperately to get you to explain to me how what is described as happening at the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15-18 is different than what is described in Rev 20:9-15. What are the differences exactly, keeping in mind that both speaking of the dead being raised and judged (one says it happens at the seventh trumpet and the other says it happens after the thousand years which would place the seventh trumpet after the thousand years).

And since the resurrection of the dead and the end of death occurs at that time, it should be understood that 1 Cor 15:50-54 and Rev 21:1-4 happens during that event as well.
This is wishful thinking at best. The truth is, turn a page in Revelation and TIME has passed. Not the real time of reading, but the time John is writing of.

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How do you figure? Notice what Paul says here:

1 Cor 15
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”

Verse 54 above is referencing the fulfillment of this OT verse:

Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people’s disgrace from all the earth. The Lord has spoken.

You say "this is wishful thinking at best". I say this is interpreting scripture with scripture. Look at what the following says:

Rev 21:Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

Just as we saw in 1 Cor 15:54, we see Isaiah 25:8 quoted here as well. With that in mind, how can it be "wishful" thinking that these verses are directly related? Both passages are fulfilled at the same general time (at the same event of Christ's second coming).

Notice in 1 Cor 15:54 that Paul indicated that at the last trumpet "death is swallowed up in victory" and in Rev 21:4 John says "there will be no more death" when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. That means the seventh and last trumpet of Rev 11:15-18 not only signals the time of the wicked being destroyed and of the dead being judged, but also when the dead in Christ are resurrected and changed to have new bodies with the new heavens and new earth being ushered in. These passages tie all these things together as being part of one event when Christ returns.

So, what I said is not wishful thinking at all. I can back it up with scripture.

1 Cor. 15 is indeed tied to another passage, but it is 1 Thes. 4 & 5.

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Yes, that one, too. That describes the second coming of Christ when we who are alive at the time will be caught up with the dead in Christ to meet Him in the air. And 1 Thess 5 indicates what will happen to unbelievers at that time.

There Paul gives TIMING: HIS rapture, the one God revealed to him for the church, will come just before the Day of the Lord and the start of wrath. That is found at the 6th seal, before any part of the 70th week. That is why I believe in pretrib. I SEE IT in the scripture. John then saw the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7.

The end of death for the church comes before the end of death for the OT saints.

I suspect you and I will continue to disagree: we read scriptures differently.

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I don't see pre-trib taught in scripture whatsoever, but we can respectfully agree to disagree on that and still discuss these things. Thanks for the response.

Spiritual Jew said:

Thanks! I guess that means I'm not a fake amil then. Good to know.

Can you tell me if the following passage is referring to a literal thousand generations?

Deut 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

Would God not keep his covenant of love with those who lived in the 1001st generation? Would they be out of luck?

Psalm 50:9 I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens, 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

Is this referring to cattle being on a literal thousand hills?

Clearly, the word "thousand" can, and has, been used figuratively in scripture so there's no reason to think that can't be the case in Rev 20 as well.

If "a great majority of words and phrases in Revelation are very clear and easy to understand then why did Jesus say "Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches" in each of his seven messages to the seven churches of the old province of Asia? Was He not saying that spiritual discernment was required to understand what He was saying? But, you act like any random person off the street who has never read the Bible could understand it.

What was the point of John seeing a number of prophetic visions of non-literal things like seven lampstands, seven stars, a sharp, double edged sword coming out of Christ's mouth, Satan's throne, a Lamb, golden bowls full of incense filled with prayers, a pale horse whose rider is Death, locusts, scorpions, seven thunders, two olive trees and lampstands, a woman clothed with the sun, a beast with seven heads and ten horns, a dragon with seven heads and ten horns, a second beast with two horns and so on if most of the book is supposed to be interpreted literally?

It could if the term was found within a very figurative book like Revelation.

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Can you tell me if the following passage is referring to a literal thousand generations?
Although I believe God could certainly count a thousand generations, we are probably around around 150 so it seems doubtfull we would ever get to a thousand. I suspect this is not a literal thousand, by the context.

Is this referring to cattle being on a literal thousand hills? Probably means MORE than a thousand, from the context.

there's no reason to think that can't be the case in Rev 20 as well. It has been used literally FAR FAR more times! From the context, there is really no reason to imagine it is not a literal thousand. Three times it says "THE thousand" - the same thousand first mentioned. That would seem to hint very strongly against a figurative number.

Genesis 20:16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.

Exodus 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

It appears "thousand" is used over 400 times in the bible, usually with a number in front of it. Here is two examples with no number in front. That is no reason in context to even imagine this does not mean a literal thousand.

Again I must ask, if God MEANT a real thousand, what should He have done differently? If it turns out to really mean a thousand years, will you ask God why He did not make it clearer?

"Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches" in each of his seven messages to the seven churches of the old province of Asia? Have you never heard the theory that each church is a 'age" and we are at the Laodicean age now? I have heard this many times. Yet, Jesus words ring loud and clear "Whoever has ears, let them hear...." that would mean any believer in any age should read and understand that it might just be talking to THEM (that has ears to hear.) I take these messages PERSONALLY. I think everyone should.

Let's think about this: do you have ears? Do I have ears? Do most people have ears? Ears are made to HEAR. Yet, the devil and his ability to deceive has convinced many in the church that all but one church age is past so is not pertinent to "hear" that message. This is just being able to read and understand.

What about the REST of the book that is very literal and easy to understand? Some of these things we read about - John explained. I really hope you are not making excuses. It is really not that difficult a book after one reads it enough time! I suspect I have read it well over a hundred times - literally.

I must confess, I have been VERY SLOW to understand. I read it over and over. I meditated on it. Jesus asked me questions. I heard His voice and His words. I can recall almost word for word his questions. But I COULD NOT ANSWER HIS QUESTIONS. (He asked about certain verses.) Finally, after weeks of frustration, He showed me how to find the answers.

iamlamad said:

If it means what is says, why then do you struggle when it speaks of a thousand years? Why can't God tell of a real thousands years and people understand it as that?

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Scripture meaning what it says doesn't have to mean that it's literal. For example, scripture says that the beast makes war with God's people. That means what it says. That doesn't mean that a literal beast of some kind will go around killing people, but it does mean that whatever the beast represents makes war with God's people.

Spiritual Jew said:

I agree with that and have made the same point many times. I was not trying to trick you. I genuinely don't understand why Jesus would not have mentioned the church age in that passage if there was such a thing. Do you have any guesses as to why He didn't?

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Yes, of course I have guesses. It seems God waited for some reasonable time after He rose from the dead, and the 11 were out preaching to the Jews, for them as a nation to accept Him as their Messiah. They all COULD HAVE after Peter's sermon on Pentecost. After He waited a few years, He then sent Paul to the Gentiles to raise up a people who WOULD accept Him as their Messiah. It was not His first plan.

Through the book of Acts, it seems the 11 were sent to the dispersed of Israel, and Paul alone was sent to the Gentiles.

In other words, if Israel had received Him as their Messiah, there would not have been a "church age" for a mostly Gentile church. In truth, Jesus spoke very little that we can be sure was pointed to the Gentile church of today. With this in mind, I would ask you, why would you EXPECT Jesus to mention the Gentile church that was future to Him at that time - and may not even have exisited at all?

Many people think the Olivet discourse is pointed to the Gentile church of today. I disagree. Jesus was talking to Jewish men about the end of THEIR age.

iamlamad said:

Can you tell me if the following passage is referring to a literal thousand generations?
Although I believe God could certainly count a thousand generations, we are probably around around 150 so it seems doubtfull we would ever get to a thousand. I suspect this is not a literal thousand, by the context.

Is this referring to cattle being on a literal thousand hills? Probably means MORE than a thousand, from the context.

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Okay, so you acknowledge that the word "thousand" is used figuratively in those verses (there are others as well).

In light of that, can you at least acknowledge the possibility that the word thousand could be used figuratively in Rev 20 as well? At least in the sense that there's no rule of some kind that says scripture can never use that word figuratively?

there's no reason to think that can't be the case in Rev 20 as well. It has been used literally FAR FAR more times!

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That means nothing. We have to figure out what it means in each case. In a book with so much figurative language as Revelation, we have to give it even more consideration.

Again I must ask, if God MEANT a real thousand, what should He have done differently? If it turns out to really mean a thousand years, will you ask God why He did not make it clearer?

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Why did God not make the entire book of Revelation clearer by not having so much figurative language? Once you answer that then you'll have your answer to your question as well.

Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches" in each of his seven messages to the seven churches of the old province of Asia? Have you never heard the theory that each church is a 'age" and we are at the Laodicean age now? I have heard this many times. Yet, Jesus words ring loud and clear "Whoever has ears, let them hear...." that would mean any believer in any age should read and understand that it might just be talking to THEM (that has ears to hear.) I take these messages PERSONALLY. I think everyone should.

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I agree. But, it also means that not everything He was saying was easy to discern. He was saying to wake up and pay close attention to what He said and open our spiritual ears. Very much like we should do when reading His parables.

Let's think about this: do you have ears? Do I have ears? Do most people have ears? Ears are made to HEAR. Yet, the devil and his ability to deceive has convinced many in the church that all but one church age is past so is not pertinent to "hear" that message. This is just being able to read and understand.

What about the REST of the book that is very literal and easy to understand? Some of these things we read about - John explained. I really hope you are not making excuses. It is really not that difficult a book after one reads it enough time!

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Goodness gracious. Making excuses? For what? I have spent a lot of time thoroughly explaining how I understand the book and have shown scriptural evidence to back it up. How am I making excuses? Come on, man. Don't go there.

iamlamad said:

If it means what is says, why then do you struggle when it speaks of a thousand years? Why can't God tell of a real thousands years and people understand it as that? Question: if you allowed a beginning reader to read it, would they imagine it was not literal? I will have my 11 year old daughter read it when she gets home.
Question: I am going to paste in some writings from the Jews, some of which it is believed was written way back in the days of Moses.

God created in 6 days and rested on the 7th: “The meaning of this, that in six thousand years the Lord God will bring all things to an end. And what is that he saith “and he rested the seventh day?” He meaneth this: that when his Son shall come, and abolish the season of the wicked one, and judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then He shall gloriously rest in that seventh day.”


From the talmud: “R. Katina said, “Six thousand years the world will exist and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate (haruv), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11)... R. Katina also taught, “Just as the seventh year is the Shmita year, so too does the world have one thousand years out of seven that are fallow (mushmat)”


Zohar VaYera 119a Ramban on Genesis 2:3 maintain that the 7 days of creation correspond to the seven millennia of the existence of natural creation. The tradition teaches thath the seventh day of the week, Shabbat or the day of rest, corresponds to the Great Shabbat, the seventh Millennium (years 6000 – 7000)


For example, in the apocryphal book of 2 Enoch (32:2-33:2), written by an Alexandrian Jew in the first century A.D., the world exists for a total of seven days of a thousand years each, and the Lord decrees that the seventh constitutes a penultimate sabbath, to be followed by the endless eighth day of eternal bliss. No Messiah is integrated into this millennial picture, but the implicit use of the canonical theme that “a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday” (Ps. 90:4), with the consequent specification of a future era of explicitly millennial dimensions, is noteworthy. ​

The question is, if you knew this and it was in the back of your mind that these things were written and believed by Jacob's descendants thousands of years ago, would it change the way you read and understand Rev. 20? Perhaps it would not see as figurative language, But John telling is very clearly what will come.

Revelation obviously does. I think it contains more very clear language. Anything that makes sense in its literal sense to me, should be taken as literal and not figurative.

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You are turning to apostate Judaism for support for your theory. That is very telling! This whole doctrine was foisted upon Christianity by apostate Judaism.