Trolley Problem and God

Clizby WampusCat said:

All you are doing is avoiding the problem. At least address the issue of God creating a world where He knows in advance that most will go to hell.

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Ok. I'm going to guess that you have absolutely no idea how this works.
Where I come from, we call this--

Creator's prerogative. In Engineering, this is known as the inventor's invention, for the inventor's purposes. Like it or not--- this is it.

I'm in exactly the same boat as you are.

I didn't get a choice of being born. My parents had sex, and 9 months later, I came out. God decided that I would be, and in being, I'd have a choice of where I want to spend my eternity.

When I was younger, I tried blaming my parents, and even God for being born into so cruel, and malicious a world. Do you really think I liked being born to parents who hated each other, and blamed me for their own failures? Do you think I liked having a life where I wasn't going to get the things I thought were important in life? Do you think I enjoyed listen to my mother's rants about what a JA my father was, or my dad's rants about what a B my mother was? Do you think I wanted to check out because my life was so easy?

But at a certain point, I had to come to the place where I realized that it didn't matter how much I blamed whomever. I was still here, and I still had a choice in the matter.

where do I want to spend my eternity?

It's a choice every single human being has to face. We can either grow up, and take responsibility for our lives, or continue to act like spoiled brats who didn't get our wants.

So.... I grew up, got over myself, and became a man.

I could indeed have committed suicide. It would not have prevented me from still existing, in a realm beyond here. All suicide does is to put a terminal/permanent end on a temporary problem-- making it a permanent problem.

The question becomes--- what are YOU going to do about it?

Do you really think blaming God is going to make him cowtow to your rant, and uncreate everything you don't like?
It's written in Romans 11:29---
the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

I.e., God is not an "indian giver" as we used to say as kids. What he gives us-- it's ours. And the refusal to receive it does not mean that you'll be excused from culpability, and responsibility for your choices to respond.

Jesus tells us about 3 guys who were given a certain amount of money, depending on their abilities.
The first guy was given ten talents of gold. Essentially, in today's value, about 15 million dollars.
the next guy was given 5 talents of gold. that's about 7.5 million dollars.
the third guy was given one talent of gold, and they were all told--- go out and make money with this.

the king came back after a long time, and called his servants back. One by one he asked--- what did you do with what I gave you?
the first guy came, and handed him 20 talents of gold, saying-- the money you gave me, I doubled it.
The king told him--- well done good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in a few things, I am going to place you over 10 cities.
The second guy came, and handed him 10 talents of gold, saying-- the money you gave me, I doubled it.
The same response--- I am going to place you over 5 cities.
the thrid guy came, and said--- here's the talent you gave me. I was afraid because I knew you were a hard man reaping where you did not sow, taking up what you did not lay down, so I buried it, and have delivered it back to you. Here you have what is yours.
The king thought for a moment, and said-- you knew I was a hard man, reaping where I did not sow, and taking up what I had not laid down. Why didn't you at least place my money with the bankers. At least then I could've gotten interest on it.
As such, I will judge you by the words of your own mouth, you wicked and lazy servant.
He then turned to his servants, and said to them--- take the one talent, and give it to him whom I gave ten. For to him who has, more will be given, but to him who does not, even what he has shall be taken from him. And then cast him into outer darkness where will there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So.... You can indeed complain.... You can say that you think it's unfair, and don't like it. The only thing you'll achieve is shaming yourself.

God has given you himself, and all the gifts of his love. All you have to do is choose and then follow through....

Welcome to adulthood. What are you going to do with it? Running away and hiding won't prevent you experiencing the consequences. And facing it brings great reward and benefits.

Clizby WampusCat said:

Ok, then how is God moral in condemning most people to hell with His creation from the start?

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God told Adam at the beginning, in Genesis 2

He warned Adam-- in the day you eat, dying, you shall die.
As Adam was created a living soul, he was given a means by which he could interact with, and relate to God. Once he killed that part of himself, by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he cut not only himself off, but all the human race, who've descended from him.

What I am doing is using logic and reason to try to see if God exists or not. There is not sufficient evidence to conclude that God exists in my opinion.

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21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

that'd be fine if God had actually made that the way through which he allowed himself to be known. But man's wisdom is so far inferior to God's foolishness, that God chose the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to make himself known to us.

Furthermore, according to Isaiah 40:12, God holds the cosmos in the span of his hand. I want you to think about that....
How large is the known universe? According to a BBC article, it's 93 billion light years (bly).

It took centuries, but we now know the size of the Universe.

Do you think you can fathom that size? A light year is 5.88 trillion miles. Do you think you can fathom 5.88 trillion miles?

The span of the human hand is approx 9 inches. Imagine holding 93 BLY in the span of your hand. Now.... how man spans in height are you? Measure your hand, and then, compare that to your height. My height is 7-1/3 spans.
Let's pick an even 8 spans for the sake of this discussion.
8 x 93 bly = 744 bly.
Now, let's take this to miles.
744 bly x 5,880,000,000,000 miles/ltyr

now, how about in meters? 3.2808 ft/meter.
744 bly is 7.039 x 10^27 meters.
7,038,633,133,230,300,000,000,000,000

in miles, 4,373,594,670,150,000,000,000,000

So.... I'm curious.... can you fathom 744 BLY?
IF I take the numbers, used, and assume that God is of Average height, based on a span, solely for the sake of discussion--- I'm thinking that he's much larger, but to give some perspective.... God would be 4.37 x 10^24 miles tall. Or, 744 BLY tall.
Do you think you can fathom so large a being? Keep in mind, at best you're 7 feet tall. 7 feet is 0.001326 miles.
So.... tell me again how you in your finite faculty for logic/reason/rationality are capable of comprehending a Being who is 4.37 x 10^24 miles..... no... let's do it this way....
4.37 x 10^24 / 0.001326 times taller than you are?
Which works out to 3.29894 x 10^27 times taller than you.

If you know how to use a calculator, you're more than welcome to verify all this for yourself.

Might makes right, correct? The fact is God could have created a universe where most people went to heaven. He did not, God chose to create a universe where most people go to hell. How is this moral?

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That's the standard excuse atheists like to use. But since you're not capable of fathoming someone who is 3.3 x 10^27 times taller than you, I'm thinking you just think you're something more than you actually are, and fail to grasp the nature of your position.

God created us in his likeness and image. He made us from dust. Because we sinned, he said that we came from dust, and to dust we shall return.
In another place we read that our spirit will return to God.
So..... I'm curious..... Really?

People who go to hell, do so because they refuse to turn to God, from their sin, and place their trust in Jesus. According to 2 Peter 1:3, YHVH has given us everything we need to live a life that honors him. So, if you go to hell when you die, you'll do so because you chose to, of your own accord. Not because he forced you to.

Provide sufficient reasons for me to believe the Bible is from God then I will consider this passage.

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Your finite humanity, and God's Infinite scale in comparison.
And the fact that while he inhabits eternity, he dwells with the contrite and humble. Isaiah 57:15.

Again I have explained many time we cannot choose what we believe.

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Sure you do..... you've chosen to be an atheist. Nobody stuck a gun to your head, and made you choose atheism. You did that all by your lonesome without any help from anyone else.
You in your finite human perspective worked through the limited scope of your awareness and said--- yep! I'm right. There is no God.
Thus choosing to make your own thinking a god.

Provide sufficient reasons for me to believe the Bible is from God then I will consider this passage.

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Your finite humanity, and God's Infinite scale in comparison.
And the fact that while he inhabits eternity, he dwells with the contrite and humble. Isaiah 57:15.

Why all the goading?

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I'm trying to get you to think. To think beyond what you think you know.
Isaac Newton Quote
People make what they know out to be the sum of all knowledge, even though they acknowledge there's much they don't know.
So, when people claim to know there's no God, I have to work really hard to not laugh while rolling all over the floor.
Someone a few years ago asked the question---- how do you know that God doesn't exist in the realm beyond your awareness?

Again no one can choose their beliefs. This is something you have continued to ignore even after I explained it to you. If God wants me to be a disciple and put my trust in Him all He has to do is:
1. Provide sufficient evidence for me to believe He exists.
2. Provide sufficient evidence for me to believe that He is moral.

Wanting good evidence for belief is being an adult.

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No. Following the evidence that exists, and working through it is being an adult.

Clizby WampusCat said:

All you are doing is avoiding the problem. At least address the issue of God creating a world where He knows in advance that most will go to hell.

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I think you need to address the problem of why you'd choose to go to hell when paradise has been prepared for you.
Quit passing culpability for your life off on others. THAT's NOT being an adult.

ISteveB said:

God told Adam at the beginning, in Genesis 2

15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”​

He warned Adam-- in the day you eat, dying, you shall die.
As Adam was created a living soul, he was given a means by which he could interact with, and relate to God. Once he killed that part of himself, by eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he cut not only himself off, but all the human race, who've descended from him.




21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

that'd be fine if God had actually made that the way through which he allowed himself to be known. But man's wisdom is so far inferior to God's foolishness, that God chose the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to make himself known to us.

Furthermore, according to Isaiah 40:12, God holds the cosmos in the span of his hand. I want you to think about that....
How large is the known universe? According to a BBC article, it's 93 billion light years (bly).

It took centuries, but we now know the size of the Universe.

Do you think you can fathom that size? A light year is 5.88 trillion miles. Do you think you can fathom 5.88 trillion miles?

The span of the human hand is approx 9 inches. Imagine holding 93 BLY in the span of your hand. Now.... how man spans in height are you? Measure your hand, and then, compare that to your height. My height is 7-1/3 spans.
Let's pick an even 8 spans for the sake of this discussion.
8 x 93 bly = 744 bly.
Now, let's take this to miles.
744 bly x 5,880,000,000,000 miles/ltyr

now, how about in meters? 3.2808 ft/meter.
744 bly is 7.039 x 10^27 meters.
7,038,633,133,230,300,000,000,000,000

in miles, 4,373,594,670,150,000,000,000,000

So.... I'm curious.... can you fathom 744 BLY?
IF I take the numbers, used, and assume that God is of Average height, based on a span, solely for the sake of discussion--- I'm thinking that he's much larger, but to give some perspective.... God would be 4.37 x 10^24 miles tall. Or, 744 BLY tall.
Do you think you can fathom so large a being? Keep in mind, at best you're 7 feet tall. 7 feet is 0.001326 miles.
So.... tell me again how you in your finite faculty for logic/reason/rationality are capable of comprehending a Being who is 4.37 x 10^24 miles..... no... let's do it this way....
4.37 x 10^24 / 0.001326 times taller than you are?
Which works out to 3.29894 x 10^27 times taller than you.

If you know how to use a calculator, you're more than welcome to verify all this for yourself.





That's the standard excuse atheists like to use. But since you're not capable of fathoming someone who is 3.3 x 10^27 times taller than you, I'm thinking you just think you're something more than you actually are, and fail to grasp the nature of your position.

God created us in his likeness and image. He made us from dust. Because we sinned, he said that we came from dust, and to dust we shall return.
In another place we read that our spirit will return to God.
So..... I'm curious..... Really?

People who go to hell, do so because they refuse to turn to God, from their sin, and place their trust in Jesus. According to 2 Peter 1:3, YHVH has given us everything we need to live a life that honors him. So, if you go to hell when you die, you'll do so because you chose to, of your own accord. Not because he forced you to.



Your finite humanity, and God's Infinite scale in comparison.
And the fact that while he inhabits eternity, he dwells with the contrite and humble. Isaiah 57:15.



Sure you do..... you've chosen to be an atheist. Nobody stuck a gun to your head, and made you choose atheism. You did that all by your lonesome without any help from anyone else.
You in your finite human perspective worked through the limited scope of your awareness and said--- yep! I'm right. There is no God.
Thus choosing to make your own thinking a god.


Your finite humanity, and God's Infinite scale in comparison.
And the fact that while he inhabits eternity, he dwells with the contrite and humble. Isaiah 57:15.



I'm trying to get you to think. To think beyond what you think you know.
Isaac Newton Quote
People make what they know out to be the sum of all knowledge, even though they acknowledge there's much they don't know.
So, when people claim to know there's no God, I have to work really hard to not laugh while rolling all over the floor.
Someone a few years ago asked the question---- how do you know that God doesn't exist in the realm beyond your awareness?




No. Following the evidence that exists, and working through it is being an adult.

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I take it you believe the stories of Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark are historical fact and that your god created the universe.
According to the bible, god was angry(was there ever a time when he wasn't?) how people were behaving so he decided to kill every living creature except Noah and his family and all the animals in his floating zoo.
What puzzles me is this. Why would a being who is supposed to be omniscient create something, and being omniscient know that things would go pear-shaped and that he would destroy most of his creation? That things wouldn't turn out right would hardly have come as a surprise to him. It doesn't make sense.
It would be like CFM International producing a new jet engine for Boeing knowing that after 50,000 air miles the engine would explode, but went ahead and placed them on the aircraft anyway.
And poor old Eve, she and all women would in future suffer greater pain in childbirth. Nothing like a bit of misogyny to go along with the mass killing.
Now before you get up on your pulpit Steve, these are not excuses for my rejection of your god. They are only some of many other reasons for rejecting a god that the bible depicts as being a very unpleasant character.
You have your reasons for believing in such a being, I have mine for not.

Clizby WampusCat said:

I came across this in a book I am reading. Most people are aware of the ethical thought experiment trolley problem. I copied it here:

There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options:

1. Do nothing and allow the trolley to kill the five people on the main track.
2. Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person.

Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?

There are many different thoughts about what is the most ethical thing for you to do. Some will say to pull the lever to kill one over five, some will say do nothing is more moral. Lets turn this around a little. Lets say that the trolley is barreling down on one person standing on the tracks and not the five. Most people would say that it would be morally wrong, without knowing anything else about the situation, that pulling the lever to kill the five instead of the one would be immoral.

Lets see how God answers this trolley problem.

Luke 13:22-30 NIV
"Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”

He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.” ~ Jesus

Matthew 7:13-14 NIV
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." ~ Jesus

These verses indicate that most will not be saved. "Many" in Luke seems a little ambiguous but a "few" as said in Matthew is clear that at least more than half or most will not be saved. Probably a lot less than half. So how does this relate to the trolley problem?

God created the universe in a way that He knows that most people will not be saved. God chose this as the way the universe will work. God is pulling the lever to kill the five to save the one.

Now I bet many are already typing a response to say we get to choose salvation because we have free will. This is not a response to the question. If God sees the end of his creation prior to creating it then chooses to create the universe in a way that causes most people to not be saved does not allow for anyone to have free will in choosing to be saved. If God wanted a world where most people are saved, or even all, he could have created that universe. He admittedly did not.

God chose to create a world where most people are sacrificed so the saved person can be saved. As a nonbeliever I would be sacrificed eternally, unlike Jesus, for the believers salvation. When a christian chooses to believe to be saved they are condemning an unbeliever.

God could have made a world where we maintain free will to follow him and have the proper information to make an informed choice. He chose not to do this. The idea that most people will be unsaved and destroyed/tortured is the result of choices by God and zero choices by humanity.

If Thanos is a super-villain for killing half of all living things in the universe then isn't God a better supervillain for killing more than half? Luckily like Thanos, it is probably made up.

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If this scenario really happens then whoever orchestrated it is at fault regardless of what choice is made. In other words, it would be wrong to orchestrate such a scenario in reality.