Can Christians live a holy life?

Charlie24 said:

I don't serve a God that has given me His free gift of righteousness by my faith in Christ only to take it away when I make a mistake.

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Sorry, but your view of God is not biblical. For how do you reconcile all the verses that talk about how sin can destroy our souls in the after life if they are not repented of? Even the apostle Paul (the famous grace teacher) taught that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, and he lists various sins like murder, adultery, fornication theft, idolatry, etc.

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

You said:

The Lord God is merciful and does not take my salvation when I DO something wrong, because I wasn't saved by my DOING, I was saved by grace through faith.

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I don't disagree that we need to be saved by God's grace through faith and it was not something of ourselves when we first came to the Lord. This is how we are initially and foundationally saved. We are ultimately saved by God's grace and mercy. But salvation also includes the Sanctification Process, as well (After we are saved by God's grace). For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

You said:

If I choose to do something wrong and know I'm doing wrong, I know from experience what is coming, I'm going to get a whopping from God the same way my dad did when I did something wrong. But His punishment is usually embarrassing and puts me right back in line. Then I think, God I'm sorry, why did I do that.

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No. You don't understand that if you tell others they can sin and still be saved, then you are leading others to treat God's grace as a license for immorality. You are teaching that they can be saved while they sin when the Bible teaches that they will abide in spiritual death unless they repent or seek forgiveness with the Lord. Remember, Adam was said to die in the day that he would disobey God. Yet, Adam did not physically die that day. Adam died spiritually that day.

chad kincham said:

And the word ‘conversation’ means lifestyle, in its original meaning, and doesn’t mean br Holy in your oral communication, but be Holy in your living.

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So you know more than the 47 translators of the KJB? I highly doubt it, my friend. I believe my Bible (the KJB). But to a certain extent it is true. Being holy in conversation is in reference to holy conduct. For it is one aspect of it.

To learn more about why I believe the King James Bible is the Word of God for today, check out this CF Thread here:

CF Thread - 30 reasons why the KJB is the divine and pure Word of God for today

chad kincham said:

Looks like you’ve only been exposed to hyper-grace, OSAS teaching, because you are missing a huge part of how salvation - and continuing in Christ - works.

To be saved, we must repent of our sins - as part of our conversion so that our sins are forgiven (Acts 3:19), but we can’t pre-repent of future sins - thus scripture is clear that only OLD sins and PAST sins are forgiven at salvation - not future sins:


2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was PURGED from his OLD SINS.


Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST through the forbearance of God;


So the hyper-grace doctrine which claims all sins: past, present, and future sins, are forgiven at salvation, is wrong.


Future sins must be repented of as we commit them, to be forgiven.


That’s why the apostle wrote:


1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


The apostle included himself, indicating he’s talking to believers, and not to the unconverted, as further shown by the fact he had just written THIS, before verse 9:


1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jn 1:7 But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


Scripture makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:


Gal 5:16 ThisI say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


Gal 5:18 But IF ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Gal 5:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these;Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,


Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,


Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell YOU again, as I have also told youin time past, that they which DO such things shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God.


Paul warns us over and over, that if we choose to walk after the flesh, we will die spiritually - but if we choose to walk after the spirit, we will have everlasting life:


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded isDEATH, but to be spiritually minded isLIFE and peace.


Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is ENMITY against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8:7 above, having a carnal mind is ENMITY against God, meaning you actually become Gods ENEMY.


Will God let His enemies into heaven?


Jas 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is ENMITY with God? whosoever therefore will be a FRIEND OF THE WORLD is the ENEMY of God.


Note that hyper-grace OSAS teaching says your sins don’t count, because all your sins - past, present and future sins - have all been forgiven - so you can regularly commit sins such as sexual sins, and God won’t hold you accountable - yet the verse above says sexual sins and being worldly, makes you Gods ENEMY.


We are expected and required as believers, to live the most sinless life we can, and to repent when we know we’ve sinned.


Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continue to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.


In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.


1Jn 1:7 (But IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.


The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.


Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).


Having no condemnation, and being in Christ, is conditional upon walking after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.


And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:


Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.


Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting


You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1, above, but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.


When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.


The lies of hyper grace are twofold: you don’t need to ever repent after salvation when you sin; and you can’t lose salvation.


This makes grace a license to sin, since sin has no eternal penalty.


Thus if you want a mistress on the side, you can have one, and regularly commit adultery - or if you’re a drunkard you can get drunk every day - you can live a sinful lifestyle with impunity.


I personally know people that are living in sin, and use OSAS as their sinning license, and they get angry if you tell them that Paul warned the brethren in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that living in the sin of drunkenness or adultery, etc, will keep them out of heaven.


In that passage, Paul warns some of the believers that they are defrauding their brethren, (which is stealing, being a thief) then warns them that stealing, and other sins, will keep them from heaven:


1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and DEFRAUD and that your brethren.


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


1Co 6:10 Nor THIEVES, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Another warning by Paul, to the saints of God, about living a sinful lifestyle as a child of God:


Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;


Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh SAINTS.


Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.


Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath ANY inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.


Eph 5:6 Let no man DECEIVE you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the WRATH of God upon the children of disobedience.


Eph 5:7 Be not YE therefore partakers WITH them.

We have a daily choice as believers, to choose between walking in the light, after the Spirit - or walking after the flesh - and their are eternal consequences for choosing to live a sinful lifestyle.

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There are some who deny OSAS and yet they hold to a sin and still be saved type belief. Generally Free Will Baptists hold to this kind of unbiblical belief.

Charlie24 said:

You're barking up the wrong tree pal. I'm not an advocate of OSAS because it's not true.

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He is not barking up the wrong tree at all. You would fall under the umbrella of Hyper grace. Just because you don't believe in OSAS, does not mean you don't believe that you can sin and still be saved (Which is the heart of the problem of OSAS).

Charlie24 said:

Of course my view of God is incorrect to someone who is not saved by grace through faith alone, but mixes in a little works for good measure.

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There are three verses that teach that we are saved by both Justification and Sanctification (Note: The red letters are in reference to Sanctification, and the letters in blue, are in reference to Justification).

Verse #1.


(Note: Verse 12, says that there are those who are damned who believed not the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness. Verses 16-17 in 2 Thessalonians 2 mentions faith and works in context, as well).

Verse #2.


(Note on John 5:24: The EXB Translation explains that the word "hear" is to: "obey."; Meaning, we have to believe in Jesus and obey Him to not perish. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 confirms this. It says that if anyone does not hear that prophet (JESUS), they shall be destroyed).

Verse #3.


(Note: Most Christians believe that the phrase "justified by faith" is dealing with salvation; If this is what you believe, you must then also be consistent with the use of this word "justified," and we should use this one word in the same way in relation to works.).

To recap:

#1. God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief in the truth.
#2. We need to hear His Word, and believe on Him that sent Jesus.
#3. We are justified by works, and not by faith alone.

Charlie24 said:

Of course my view of God is incorrect to someone who is not saved by grace through faith alone, but mixes in a little works for good measure.

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After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).


#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).


#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).


#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).


#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Charlie24 said:

How many times do I have to say it?

There is no way we will ever see eye to eye.

Everyone's view of God is determined by their belief of salvation. All their doctrine is shaped on that premise.

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Charlie. You need to deal with verses in post #69. At least make an attempt at explaining some of them. Do not do it to help me, but do it to help the person who comes across this forum searching for the truth. But we both know that you are not reading Scripture in context, so this is the real reason why you cannot defend your belief so as to help another. If I am wrong, then start explaining the verses I have put forth.

Charlie24 said:

See what I'm talking about?

You have separated justification from sanctification.

When in reality what got you saved is what keeps you saved, faith.

You are using sanctification as a means to introduce your salvation of works.

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James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). So if we are saved by God's grace through faith, it better be the real kind of faith that God accepts. James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save access the saving grace of God? Scripture says that without faith, it is impossible to please God. In fact, we learn in Hebrews 11 that faith leads to right actions or works. Abraham was said to be justified by works. Yet, no man was present to witness his works. God rewarded Abraham for sacrificing his son Isaac. So Abraham was justified by works just as he was also justified by faith, too.

Charlie24 said:

LOL! What have I been doing in this thread and other threads for the past several months.

You can lead the mule to the water but you can't make him drink.

I have explained over and over to no avail. But I understand you must keep face.

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I am asking for you to deal with explaining the verses, and this is the kind of response I get?
You have not offered any kind of water that is worthy to drink of.
The Lord Jesus cannot agree with our sin.
In fact, in Matthew 7:23, we learn that it is iniquity (sin) that is the reason why Jesus told certain believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him. For Matthew 7:26-27 says anyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. So Jesus is not trying to defend a Belief Alone while we ignore His words type faith, but Jesus is defending the kind of faith that involves obedience to Him (with great consequences if we do not obey Him).

mourningdove~ said:

God is holy.

... We are as holy as we are surrendered to God.

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;
for without Me you can do nothing."
~ John 15:5

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Indeed. God is holy. But we are told in the New Covenant in 1 Peter 1:16, “Be ye holy; for I am holy.” Yes, we cannot be holy on our own power. Any or all good comes from God. We are merely the vessels for the good God desires to do through us. The Lord gets all the glory for any good done in our lives. Any holy conduct in our lives is due to the Lord.

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13).

But many think that we are made holy only by believing in the finished work of Christ alone. Yet this is not the case. Yes, we are saved by God's grace and forgiven of past sin, but we need to enter the Sanctification Process and live a holy life by the power of God.

2 Corinthians 7:1 says,
“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

I just do not hear this verse being preach or taught today.
It's all about believing in Jesus and do not worry about your sin too much.
That is the message in Christianity today.
Yet, we are told to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the FEAR of God.

Charlie24 said:

Arguing over scripture is all that will result. It's impossible to argue or reason when we see our salvation in different ways.

We work because we are saved, not to get saved or continue to be saved.

Your salvation is mixed with works, in other words you must do something to remain saved. That's why you will never have peace with it.

You are always in danger of losing your salvation, that must be a miserable life!

You can't see that the good works we produce are done 100% by the Holy Spirit. It's not based whatsoever on our ability, but only His.

With this being the case, we can't lose our salvation because our salvation is not based on our performance, it's based on what Christ has done on the Cross, His performance.

It's all based on faith, when that is established, the Holy Spirit takes care of the good works.

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Notice how you did not even address the verses I put forth to you again. You just keep repeating the same mantra that you have been taught in popular Christianity. I tell you what. You keep believing the way you do, and see how that works out for you in the end. I know God would rather have me justify that which is good instead of sin under His grace based on Titus 2:11-12. The ironic thing is that you are also believe that you are saved by work. For Jesus said this is the work of God, to believe on Him in whom He sent (John 6:29). So you believe are saved by works, too (Unless you simpy do not believe John 6:29).