Should SDA's attend synagogue on Shabbat if early Jewish believers did?

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Which church banned it...Rome? The Sabbath is still the 7th day in the Eastern Churches as well as in the Coptic Orthodox.

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It is my understanding that Catholic Catechism states that Sunday is the day of rest. It used to be that it was a mortal sin to do non-necessary work on Sunday. I have not read the new Catechism, but I would assume that such is still the case, even though I do not think it is really emphasized anymore.

Basil the Great said:

It is my understanding that Catholic Catechism states that Sunday is the day of rest. It used to be that it was a mortal sin to do non-necessary work on Sunday. I have not read the new Catechism, but I would assume that such is still the case, even though I do not think it is really emphasized anymore.

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Yes it would seem that Rome has changed and/or invented novel doctrines...

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

There is no longer separation between man and God. The curse of the law has been eliminated, not the law itself...

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It is the law that showed us that we are cursed... You cannot separate the two ( curse & law)

pasifika said:

It is the law that showed us that we are cursed... You cannot separate the two ( curse & law)

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So throw the baby out with the bathwater...I see...

eleos1954 said:

so ... I ask you again ...

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Hello, which law are you referring to? Law by works ( Sinai) or law by Faith (From Beginning) Romans 3:27,28..No one is justified by the law ( works)...

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

So throw the baby out with the bathwater...I see...

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Then Your condemnation is just...Romans 3:8

Basil the Great said:

It is my understanding that Catholic Catechism states that Sunday is the day of rest. It used to be that it was a mortal sin to do non-necessary work on Sunday. I have not read the new Catechism, but I would assume that such is still the case, even though I do not think it is really emphasized anymore.

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In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her!
—Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50.


In An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine,

Q. How prove you that the church hath power to command feasts and holy days?
A. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.

Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the church’s power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest [of the feasts] by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power.
–Rev. Henry Tuberville, D.D. (R.C.), (1833), page 58.

pasifika said:

Hello, which law are you referring to? Law by works ( Sinai) or law by Faith (From Beginning) Romans 3:27,28..No one is justified by the law ( works)...

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The law is the law ... without the faith of God/Jesus no one can keep the law. We are justified by Christ and what HE did.

The law was in place before Sinai ... Sinai was when the law was written down.

The law is kept out of love and for no other reasons.

Is love a work? Not it is not.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

1 John 2:3
By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.

Does the Holy Spirit help one to overcome sin?

What is sin? Transgression of the law.

Romans 3:31

31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.

Justin Martyr wrote around 150AD that Christians were meeting together for worship on Sunday, the first day of the week, centuries before Constantine was even born, so if Gentiles were "becoming Jews" and meeting in the synagogues on Saturday, it likely didn't last long if it even happened at all. Based on Paul's letters, it seems that Gentiles were primarily meeting in each others homes and forming house churches, especially as the Jerusalem council had decided that Gentiles did not have to become Jews and observe Jewish customs in order to follow Christ. Of course, many Jewish Christians still continued to observe the Jewish customs that they practiced all their lives, but more for cultural reasons (and perhaps for the opportunity to preach the gospel of Christ, using Paul as an example) than because observing the sabbath or any other Jewish law granted them salvation.

I'll weigh in on this with all ya' all. Good question.

I think they went there for the same reason Jesus did. To teach the Gospel first and observe the Law second.

Christian's were thrown out of the synagogues by the early 2nd century. Some jewish-christians secretly continued to attend but were re-assimilated into the Jewish religion and disappeared.
The Sabbath was never abolished (it's why outside of English and Germanic countries all of Europe calls Saturday -sabbath whether it be in spanish, italian, Greek or Russian) and that's why monasteries can and do still hold liturgy on both Saturday and Sundays. In the Eastern church the Liturgy is forbidden to be celebrated during the week during Lent EXCEPT for Saturdays and Sundays. You guys that follow american religious sects really need to get out more.

Carl Emerson said:

Our SDA friends believe we should still keep the Law and therefore the Sabbath on the seventh day. This seems to be from biblical record that the early Jewish believers attended synagogue as was their custom.

The question is did they attend to keep the Law, or to be a light among the Jews.

Also is there any evidence of early believing Gentiles attending synagogue after conversion...

Did Josephus or other early writers comment on this??

Lastly, if Jews today are keeping the Law and are guardians of the Law, why dont the SDA's join them???

I hope we have have a warm and respectful discussion.

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Carl,

The expression "the Lord's day" is found only once in the Bible. In Revelation 1:10 John relates the beginning of his visionary experience to being in the Spirit "on the Lord's Day." The phrase seems to have become more common in the second century a.d., where it is found in such early Christian writings as Ignatius's Epistle to the Magnesians 9:1 (c. a.d. 108), the Didache 14:1 (c. a.d. 100-125), and the Gospel of Peter 9:35; 12:50 (c. a.d. 125-50) [source].

The SDAs have other idiosyncratic doctrines such as The Investigative Judgment - taught by the prophetess, Ellen G White. See also their belief in soul sleep.

Oz

eleos1954 said:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday

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This is misleading on many fronts. The Council of Laodicea in her canons clearly establish that both Saturday and Sunday are Festal days. All it did was restrict resting on the Sabbath to counter judaizing which was a problem in Laodicea. Likewise 4 centuries later a canon was passed forbidding fasting on the Sabbath (a roman custom not practised elsewhere) and considered wrongas it took away from the Festal nature of the Sabbath.
Here are the relevant canons of Laodicea:

Canon 16: The Gospels are to be read on the Sabbath [i.e. Saturday], with the other Scriptures.

Canon 29: Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

Canon 49: During Lent the Bread must not be offered except on the Sabbath Day and on the Lord's Day only.

buzuxi02 said:

This is misleading on many fronts. The Council of Laodicea in her canons clearly establish that both Saturday and Sunday are Festal days. All it did was restrict resting on the Sabbath to counter judaizing which was a problem in Laodicea. Likewise 4 centuries later a canon was passed forbidding fasting on the Sabbath (a roman custom not practised elsewhere) and considered wrongas it took away from the Festal nature of the Sabbath.
Here are the relevant canons of Laodicea:

Canon 16: The Gospels are to be read on the Sabbath [i.e. Saturday], with the other Scriptures.

Canon 29: Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

Canon 49: During Lent the Bread must not be offered except on the Sabbath Day and on the Lord's Day only.

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What day was/is recognized and worshipped on Saturday or Sunday? The 1st day or the 7th day?

eleos1954 said:

What day was/is recognized and worshipped on Saturday or Sunday? The 1st day or the 7th day?

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Both are sanctioned to hold liturgy/Mass on (. Here are the canons of the Quinisext council held in the late 7th century which CENSURED the Church of Rome for holding strict fasts on the Sabbath:

Canon 52
On all days of the holy fast of Lent, except on the Sabbath, the Lord's day and the holy day of the Annunciation, the Liturgy of the Presanctified is to be said. (Presanctified is a shortened service reserved during the weekdays of Lent as the liturgy/mass should be reserved for Festal days that is Saturday, Sunday and March 25th commemoration of the Annunciation)

Canon 55
Since we understand that in the city of the Romans, in the holy fast of Lent they fast on the Saturdays, contrary to the ecclesiastical observance which is traditional, it seemed good to the holy synod that also in the Church of the Romans the canon shall immovably stands fast which says: If any cleric shall be found to fast on a Sunday or Saturday (except on one occasion only) he is to be deposed; and if he a layman he shall be cut off.


Part of the problem is the misinformation derived from sects originating from america. These sects believe the entire western world speaks English and somehow has erased the word Sabbath for Saturday. In reality the majority of European languages have done the opposite and banished their ancient name for the 7th day for literally Sabbath!
Google on what the 7th day is called in the following languages:
1.Spanish
2.Portuguese
3. Italian
4. Romanian
5. French (less obvious but is indeed derived from sabbath)
6. Greek
7. Serbian
8. Russian
Note how much to the chagrin of the SDA and contrary to what they say no country on Earth refers to the 1st day of the week as Sabbath. The real question to ask is where did the SDA get the false and bizarre notion that European countries have renamed the 1st day of the week as sabbath? (no country on Earth has)

buzuxi02 said:

Both are sanctioned to hold liturgy/Mass on (. Here are the canons of the Quinisext council held in the late 7th century which CENSURED the Church of Rome for holding strict fasts on the Sabbath:

Canon 52
On all days of the holy fast of Lent, except on the Sabbath, the Lord's day and the holy day of the Annunciation, the Liturgy of the Presanctified is to be said. (Presanctified is a shortened service reserved during the weekdays of Lent as the liturgy/mass should be reserved for Festal days that is Saturday, Sunday and March 25th commemoration of the Annunciation)

Canon 55
Since we understand that in the city of the Romans, in the holy fast of Lent they fast on the Saturdays, contrary to the ecclesiastical observance which is traditional, it seemed good to the holy synod that also in the Church of the Romans the canon shall immovably stands fast which says: If any cleric shall be found to fast on a Sunday or Saturday (except on one occasion only) he is to be deposed; and if he a layman he shall be cut off.


Part of the problem is the misinformation derived from sects originating from america. These sects believe the entire western world speaks English and somehow has erased the word Sabbath for Saturday. In reality the majority of European languages have done the opposite and banished their ancient name for the 7th day for literally Sabbath!
Google on what the 7th day is called in the following languages:
1.Spanish
2.Portuguese
3. Italian
4. Romanian
5. French (less obvious but is indeed derived from sabbath)
6. Greek
7. Serbian
8. Russian

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Sabbath in all languages

Jesus reaffirms to remember the Sabbath and KEEP (existed before) it holy on Mt Sanai.

Jesus created the 7th day blessed and sanctified it during creation week ... He kept the 7th day Sabbath (even in His death) .... where in His Word does He State He changed that which He reaffirmed on Mt. Sanai?

Jesus (who is God) and the apostles, and the very earliest church that Jesus built all kept the 7tn day Sabbath ... did so after in His death as well ... and so did His followers. Can any man change that which God created from the beginning?

If Jesus had not kept the 7th day Sabbath would He have committed sin?

The Pharisees were certainly trying to make that case (saying it was unlawful) ... but Jesus corrected them.

Mark 2

The Lord of the Sabbath
(1 Samuel 21:1–7; Matthew 12:1–8; Luke 6:1–5)

23 One Sabbath Jesus was passing through the grain fields, and His disciples began to pick the heads of grain as they walked along. 24So the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?

25 Jesus replied, “ Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26During the high priesthood of Abiathar, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which was lawful only for the priests. And he gave some to his companions as well.27Then Jesus declared, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.

What significance is there with Jesus stating He is Lord of the Sabbath?

Carl Emerson said:

Our SDA friends believe we should still keep the Law and therefore the Sabbath on the seventh day. This seems to be from biblical record that the early Jewish believers attended synagogue as was their custom.

The question is did they attend to keep the Law, or to be a light among the Jews.

Also is there any evidence of early believing Gentiles attending synagogue after conversion...

Did Josephus or other early writers comment on this??

Lastly, if Jews today are keeping the Law and are guardians of the Law, why dont the SDA's join them???

I hope we have have a warm and respectful discussion.

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Two scriptures cut to the chase about not having to keep the 7th day sabbath:


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe DAYS, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.


“Sabbaths, new moons, and set feasts” (1Ch 23:31; 2Ch 31:3), answer to “days, months, times.”


Look at 1 Chronicles 23:31


1 Chronicles 23:31 (KJV)

31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the SABBATHS, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:


The word sabbaths is word H7676 in Hebrew:


H7676 (Strong)

שַׁבָּת

shabbâth

shab-bawth'

Intensive from H7673; intermission, that is, (specifically) the Sabbath: - (+ every) sabbath.

Total KJV occurrences: 111


Thus Galatians 4:9-11 is talking about sabbaths that includes the weekly sabbaths.


Next:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the SABBATH days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body isof Christ.


The word sabbath above, is H4521 in Strongs:


G4521 (Strong)

σάββατον

sabbaton

sab'-bat-on

Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath(that is, Shabbath), or day of WEEKLY reposefrom secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - SABBATH (DAY), week.

Total KJV occurrences: 68


Colossians 2:16-17 states to let no one judge you for not keeping the sabbath day, because it’s a shadow of Jesus, (who’s the real rest for us Matthew 11:28-29 - every day we rest in a Him, and not on a ceremonial day).


Sabbath day keepers are therefore shadow keepers.

eleos1954 said:

Jesus reaffirms to remember the Sabbath and KEEP (existed before) it holy on Mt Sanai.

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Did you read what I posted? All the canons acknowledge a holiness to the Sabbath. And the OT laws only applies to the Hebrew jews hence why we don't circumcise or follow kosher dietetic ritual. The Church never accepted total idleness on any day of the week. In order to fight against judaizing it recommended better to rest on Sunday if you must..
And no, the apostles and 1st generation did not strictly observe the Sabbath. That's why the pharisees constantly accused both Jesus and his apostles of violating the Sabbath.

buzuxi02 said:

Christian's were thrown out of the synagogues by the early 2nd century. Some jewish-christians secretly continued to attend but were re-assimilated into the Jewish religion and disappeared.
The Sabbath was never abolished (it's why outside of English and Germanic countries all of Europe calls Saturday -sabbath whether it be in spanish, italian, Greek or Russian) and that's why monasteries can and do still hold liturgy on both Saturday and Sundays. In the Eastern church the Liturgy is forbidden to be celebrated during the week during Lent EXCEPT for Saturdays and Sundays. You guys that follow american religious sects really need to get out more.

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Please explain what you mean. The Catholic Church effectively changed the Sabbath for Christians from Saturday to Sunday, as it is Sunday that Catholics are expected to refrain from doing any unnecessary work. Do you mean to tell me that the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox are supposed to avoid unnecessary work on Saturday, rather than Sunday?

Carl Emerson said:

Our SDA friends believe we should still keep the Law and therefore the Sabbath on the seventh day. This seems to be from biblical record that the early Jewish believers attended synagogue as was their custom.

The question is did they attend to keep the Law, or to be a light among the Jews.

Also is there any evidence of early believing Gentiles attending synagogue after conversion...

Did Josephus or other early writers comment on this??

Lastly, if Jews today are keeping the Law and are guardians of the Law, why don't the SDA's join them???

I hope we have have a warm and respectful discussion.

Click to expand...

I used to be a SDA (so glad I had a strong biblical grounding to leave). Firstly, Its quite strange because they believe that Sunday worshippers will receive the mark of the beast, and Sabbath keepers will receive a special reward in heaven.

With regards to the Jewish law, from my extensive brainwashing sessions with the pastor, whom I frustrated with many painful doctrinal questions, insisted that I should keep 'dietary laws' and the sabbath only.

This idea stems from the belief that in the years of Genesis God required people to eat plants, thereby giving them extended lifespans. I was told not to drink caffeine, avoid pork, prawns and any other thing that goes against the Jewish dietary laws.

A was taught that the pope was the lawless one who exalted himself above the most high and changed the times and laws by forcing early christians to worship the pagan sun god. (Sunday)

However, I researched this topic and there's strong evidence to suggest that the early church worshipped on the Lord's day. The most compelling evidence is John the divine in Revelation: "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day".

However, I feel there is a lot of credit to worshipping on the Saturday (Shabbat), and this rest still convicts me today. Paul urges us to not judge on festival days or sabbaths, as long as we do all for the Lord, and this is aside from obeying the written law. So, the Lord is our rest.

So with regards to the law, since Jesus says the one who loves him will keep his commandmnents, SDA'S think that this statement is a nod to keeping the 10 commandments and other, but strangely not all of the Jewish law. As mentioned, this law is put into our hearts now, so its no longer a requirement to be anxious about keeping the meticulous requirements of the law.

On a side note, SDA's also believe in annihilationism which means they don't believe the wicked will receive a just eternal punishment in hell, they just simply get thrown into the pit of fire and cease to exist: this is concerning for me.

In addition, apparently Jesus entered the 'heavenly sanctury' in 1844 and cleansed all past believers, but this apparently means that any believer past 1844 is judged specifically by whether or not they keep the sabbath.

Its also a requirement to confess Ellen White as a prophet to be baptised which I obviously wasn't willing to do.