Amended* God cannot die and question regarding the Hypostatic union

Note: in my original post I should have said "fully God and fully human". Scriptures do make that much clear (Deity: John 1:1-5, 14; Colossians 2:9; etc. Humanity: Hebrews 2:14, 17; Hebrews 4:15; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 1:7, etc.).

Also, to better understand the position of those who say only Christ's human nature suffered and died on the cross, I would suggest you google the phrase "Divine impassibility". Personally, I believe God's character and Nature are eternal and unchanging, but the Bible clearly reveals God as having emotions, and Him being affected by the actions of His creations (He can be grieved, He can be angered, etc.)... so I reject the idea that God is "impassible" in a strict sense. The idea of Divine impassibility originated (in the west, at least) from the Greek philosophers Aristotle and Plato. God bless you all;
Michael

Human nature is defined as a human body and a rational soul. The Logos assumed this nature and made it his own without confusion.

Ann77 said:

I have a question that I've been wondering about ever since I've been responding to Muslims and Jews regarding the crucifixion. I understand Jesus' human nature only died on the cross and not His devine nature. When we respond saying Jesus' human nature died on the cross, does this include a human soul since a human nature isn't just physical flesh, and would that mean Jesus had two Spirit's, His divine and human? I'm not trying to believe anything heretical. I honestly don't know. I've heard a popular Christian apologist say only his flesh died and nothing further. This seems off.

I prefer traditional Christians to answer this.
Answers coming from non Trinitarians, Mormons and physicalists will be disregarded.

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Actually, God did die.

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:17-18)."

If God didn't die, as Jesus Christ, our sins are not forgiven. But, God did die and we are forgiven forever.

The Ego's of both God the Spirit, and Jesus Christ the Man, completely died at the cross, and died together, etc... And after that, They then became like, or very much more like, or very much more equal to, God the Father, who is not solely Man or Spirit, after that, or at or after the cross, etc...

Became much more like the One who is not, and never has been, ever restricted by "forms", etc...

Nor was ever bound to forms ever, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

The Ego's of both God the Spirit, and Jesus Christ the Man, completely died at the cross, and died together, etc... And after that, They then became like, or very much more like, or very much more equal to, God the Father, who is not solely Man or Spirit, after that, or at or after the cross, etc...

Became much more like the One who is not, and never has been, ever restricted by "forms", etc...

Nor was ever bound to forms ever, etc...

God Bless!

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The Ego of the Spirit died, and Jesus became "one" with Him or that One, and together, they are now much more like the Father, etc, after, or at, or after the cross, etc...

And are maybe now together now "one" with the Father now after that, etc...

Or Jesus bypassed that One (The Spirit) (and this place) and went to where the Father was, and always was/is, and the Father and the Spirit and the Son will all be "one", or will all be rejoined together, when Jesus returns, (future tense), etc, which is another possibility, etc...

God Bless!

Lot's of Ego's died at the cross, etc...

God Bless!

pescador said:

Jesus is/was/is divine. His human body died on the cross, but nothing else. According to Scripture "The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God." Romans 6:10

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Also, James 2:26 defines death as separation of body and spirit.
Peter in his letters says that Jesus went to the grave to preach the victory to the righteous side of the grave.

GraceBro said:

Actually, God did die.

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades (Revelation 1:17-18)."

If God didn't die, as Jesus Christ, our sins are not forgiven. But, God did die and we are forgiven forever.

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I think everyone agrees that He died. The question is -> how did death affect His inner man/soul ?

Ann77 said:

Wouldn't two Spirit's mean two persons? Isn't the Hypostatic union a divine and human nature in the single person? Would the Hypostatic union say the human soul is not a person? I guess I'm confused. I know I should know this already.

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Yes, the hypostatic union is two natures in one Person. But those natures are complete. Anything that a human has, Jesus has. Soul, spirit, etc. I don't see why a separate human soul or spirit is any more of an issue than a separate human body.

If someone says that Jesus' human soul didn't die because human souls don't die, that's fine. But if they are thinking that Jesus' death wasn't as complete as the rest of us (that is, certain things weren't involved in his death that would be in ours), that's a problem.

The most difficult question in the ancient discussions was actually the will. The official doctrine is that there is a separate human will.

Basically the problem is that if the Logos didn't take on all of humanity, then his death isn't like ours. That causes all kind of problems. The ancient slogan was "what wasn't taken on [by the Logos] wasn't redeemed." I.e. if Jesus is only part of a human, then there are parts of us that aren't part of the new life through Jesus' death and resurrection.

I think it's a mistake to think of "Person" as meaning the same thing as the normal English "person." Hypostasis comes from Greek philosophy. It's basically something like "entity." The human is united with the Logos into a single "thing," so that whatever happens to the human happens to the Logos (though someone indirectly).

But what we mean by a person has to do with things like personality, the ability to make choices, etc. Those things are really part of the human nature. I’m not exactly saying that Christs human nature is a person in the modern sense. But I’m warning you not to think of hypostasis as quite what we mean when we talk about person.

(Incidentally, I'm complying with the OP's request to give a traditional explanation.)

RickReads said:

I think everyone agrees that He died. The question is -> how did death affect His inner man/soul ?

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The title of the thread is "God cannot die." So, I would beg to differ that "everyone agrees that He did." The subsequent questions arise from a premise I don't accept and only lends itself to getting lost in the weeds over the "inner man/soul" conversation.

GraceBro said:

The title of the thread is "God cannot die." So, I would beg to differ that "everyone agrees that He did." The subsequent questions arise from a premise I don't accept and only lends itself to getting lost in the weeds over the "inner man/soul" conversation.

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Fair enough, I can see somewhat where you are coming from. I would still be interested in knowing your views on the particulars though. I`ve not researched "hypostatic union" before so I have some personal interest in the justification for this view. For me, lack of scripture is a strike.

RickReads said:

I`ve not researched "hypostatic union" before so I have some personal interest in the justification for this view. For me, lack of scripture is a strike

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The second epistle of Cyril of Alexandria to Nestorios is an easy read which explains the idea of the hypostatic union (actually starts in the 2nd paragraph), which he pretty much coined, it also explains whether "God died".:
Cyril of Alexandria Second Letter to Nestorius

buzuxi02 said:

The second epistle of Cyril of Alexandria to Nestorios is an easy read which explains the idea of the hypostatic union (actually starts in the 2nd paragraph), which he pretty much coined, it also explains whether "God died".:
Cyril of Alexandria Second Letter to Nestorius

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I looked but they seem to have failed to put that letter in my Bible.

Ann77 said:

I have a question that I've been wondering about ever since I've been responding to Muslims and Jews regarding the crucifixion. I understand Jesus' human nature only died on the cross and not His devine nature. When we respond saying Jesus' human nature died on the cross, does this include a human soul since a human nature isn't just physical flesh, and would that mean Jesus had two Spirit's, His divine and human? I'm not trying to believe anything heretical. I honestly don't know. I've heard a popular Christian apologist say only his flesh died and nothing further. This seems off.

I prefer traditional Christians to answer this.
Answers coming from non Trinitarians, Mormons and physicalists will be disregarded.

Click to expand...

Jesus died a physical death on the cross. We all die physically but through our faith we know that all humans exist eternally. God made us that way and existence, itself, is inherently good. So that was God who suffered and died an excruciatingly humiliating and painful death in human flesh.

Ann77 said:

I have a question that I've been wondering about ever since I've been responding to Muslims and Jews regarding the crucifixion. I understand Jesus' human nature only died on the cross and not His devine nature. When we respond saying Jesus' human nature died on the cross, does this include a human soul since a human nature isn't just physical flesh, and would that mean Jesus had two Spirit's, His divine and human? I'm not trying to believe anything heretical. I honestly don't know. I've heard a popular Christian apologist say only his flesh died and nothing further. This seems off.

I prefer traditional Christians to answer this.
Answers coming from non Trinitarians, Mormons and physicalists will be disregarded.

Click to expand...

This is what I believe - based on these scriptures:

The New Testament teaches us about a body (soma), a soul (psyche), and a spirit (pneuma):

1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you, and may your whole spirit (pneuma) and soul (psyche) and body (soma) be preserved blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Adam had a body and a soul when he was created, but the life of God was not in him yet until God breathed His Spirit into Adam:

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed [ nâphach ] into his nostrils the breath [ neshâmâh ] of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh]."

When Adam sinned, the Spirit of God no longer dwelled in him - but Adam still had a body and a soul.

Jesus is the last Adam, the Son of Man, but also the Son of God. Through Him, humans who have a body and a soul, but who do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, are born (again) from above by the Spirit of God:

John 3:7
"That which is born (γεννάω [gennáō]) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born (γεννάω gennáō) of the Spirit ( πνεῦμα [pneûma] ) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born (Greek: γεννάω [gennáō]) from above (Greek: ἄνωθεν [ánōthen]). "

The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit of God does not die, but every body has a soul, which leaves the body at death. We are told in the New Testament that when Jesus died, He went into hades and preached by the Spirit (the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ) to the souls who were imprisoned there:

1 Peter 3:18-20
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water);"

It's because Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God that death could not hold Him.

The Greek version of the Old Testament translates all the Hebrew references to sheol (the place of departed souls), as hades. The Revelation talks about death and hades delivering up all the dead in them at the time of the Great White Throne judgment when the books are opened. Every time the word hades appears in the N.T, the English Bibles translate it as "hell", but I believe this is incorrect - there is a different Greek word used whenever Jesus spoke of eternal punishment: Geena, from the Hebrew Gehenna. Jesus spoke of the soul of the rich man being tormented in hades, not Gehenna.

When a human dies, the soul leaves the body and goes where it goes. If the Spirit of Christ (the Spirit of God) is in you, then it means your soul goes to be with Christ, just as the soul of Lazarus before Christ's death and resurrection, was found in Abraham's bosom - because that's where the souls of those who believed God as Abraham did went to when they died (before Christ's death and resurrection).

One day the bodies of all who died in Christ will be resurrected as a spiritual body, just as Jesus rose again from death.

It is because Christ's Spirit is God's Spirit and God does not die that we understand that Christ died in His body (on behalf of us) and went to hades (on behalf of us) where He preached by the Spirit to the souls who were imprisoned there. Because he died in the Spirit, hades could not hold Him, and His body was quickened by the same Spirit.

Before this, no other human died in the Spirit when they died - but now those who are in Christ when they die, die in Christ and hence, in the Spirit, and hades cannot hold them.

Jesus is fully God but He is also fully human. He is body, soul and Spirit. Through being born (gennoa) from above by the Spirit, His Spirit dwells in those who believe in Him.

RickReads said:

I believe the inner man or your spirit separates from your flesh at death. So, what Jesus experienced when His flesh died was probably the same.

Having said that, I believe the inner Jesus was/is Diety based on what He said about Himself in the book of John and on other scripture as well.

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The problem with this view is that it amounts to a kind of Apollinarianism.

Apollinaris of Laodicea was a late 4th century bishop who was strongly anti-Arian. And while his enthusiasm for holding firm to Christ's true Deity is commendable, it is actually this same enthusiasm that led him to error. Apollinaris wanted to emphasize Christ's Deity so strongly that he taught that Jesus lacked a human mind and a human soul, and that for Jesus the "place" of the human soul and mind was instead occupied by the Divine Logos. And thus for Apollinaris Jesus was, in effect, God wearing a human costume, man on the outside by God on the inside.

This is immediately problematic, and for the reasons why it is so problematic I can think of no one else who says it better than St. Gregory Nazianzus, a contemporary of Apollinaris.

"For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole. Let them not, then, begrudge us our complete salvation, or clothe the Saviour only with bones and nerves and the portraiture of humanity. For if His Manhood is without soul, even the Arians admit this, that they may attribute His Passion to the Godhead, as that which gives motion to the body is also that which suffers. But if He has a soul, and yet is without a mind, how is He man, for man is not a mindless animal? And this would necessarily involve that while His form and tabernacle was human, His soul should be that of a horse or an ox, or some other of the brute creation. This, then, would be what He saves; and I have been deceived by the Truth, and led to boast of an honour which had been bestowed upon another. But if His Manhood is intellectual and nor without mind, let them cease to be thus really mindless. But, says such an one, the Godhead took the place of the human intellect. How does this touch me? For Godhead joined to flesh alone is not man, nor to soul alone, nor to both apart from intellect, which is the most essential part of man. Keep then the whole man, and mingle Godhead therewith, that you may benefit me in my completeness." - St. Gregory Nazianzus to Cledonius, Against Apollinarianism

1 Corinthians 15

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

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How does the transformation of our bodies in the resurrection relate to the present discussion?

-CryptoLutheran

Ann77 said:

Wouldn't two Spirit's mean two persons? Isn't the Hypostatic union a divine and human nature in the single person? Would the Hypostatic union say the human soul is not a person? I guess I'm confused. I know I should know this already.

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Jesus doesn't have two spirits. Jesus, because He's human, has a human soul. Jesus, as God, is God. As God and Man He is united as a single, undivided Person in perfect Hypostatic Union. Jesus' human soul is just part of what makes Him fully human.

This starts getting us into some of the more complicated bits of theology here.

Two important theological terms here are Anhypostasia and Enhypostasia.

Anhypostasia means that in the Incarnation we do not believe that God the Word was joined together with a human person, there is no Personhood except the Person of the Son. Thus there is not a joining of a Divine Person with a human person, but of a Divine Person with human nature.

Enhypostasia means that it is the Logos who "Personalizes" the humanity. Jesus' humanity is not impersonal, but is Personal, because it is the humanity of God the Son.

Human nature is assumed, united to the Son, and thus united together with His eternal Divinity. The union of Deity and humanity does not result in a new Person, or in a fused Person, or in a confused Person, or a divided Person. The same Person who always was, He who is only-begotten Son of the Father, is the Person who was conceived in Mary's womb, was born, who suffered, who died, who rose again, etc.

God the Son, in becoming man, now has all that makes humans human, but without sin.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Two important theological terms here are Anhypostasia and Enhypostasia.

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You’ve given a good explanation of doctrine as it developed in the centuries after Chalcedon. I wonder, however, whether anhypostasis isn’t a demonstration of how inadequate our terms are to fully explain the Incarnation. In a very real sense it denies the existence of Jesus.

I would suggest that Cyril might provide a precedent. Perhaps we could say that there were two persons “before” the incarnation, but in the Incarnation there is only one. (It seem clear that he meant "before" logically, not chronologically.) From the little I know about him, it seems that he was a bit more flexible in using ontology than the 7th and 8th Cent folk who developed anhypostasis.

ViaCrucis said:

The problem with this view is that it amounts to a kind of Apollinarianism.

Apollinaris of Laodicea was a late 4th century bishop who was strongly anti-Arian. And while his enthusiasm for holding firm to Christ's true Deity is commendable, it is actually this same enthusiasm that led him to error. Apollinaris wanted to emphasize Christ's Deity so strongly that he taught that Jesus lacked a human mind and a human soul, and that for Jesus the "place" of the human soul and mind was instead occupied by the Divine Logos. And thus for Apollinaris Jesus was, in effect, God wearing a human costume, man on the outside by God on the inside.

This is immediately problematic, and for the reasons why it is so problematic I can think of no one else who says it better than St. Gregory Nazianzus, a contemporary of Apollinaris.

"For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole. Let them not, then, begrudge us our complete salvation, or clothe the Saviour only with bones and nerves and the portraiture of humanity. For if His Manhood is without soul, even the Arians admit this, that they may attribute His Passion to the Godhead, as that which gives motion to the body is also that which suffers. But if He has a soul, and yet is without a mind, how is He man, for man is not a mindless animal? And this would necessarily involve that while His form and tabernacle was human, His soul should be that of a horse or an ox, or some other of the brute creation. This, then, would be what He saves; and I have been deceived by the Truth, and led to boast of an honour which had been bestowed upon another. But if His Manhood is intellectual and nor without mind, let them cease to be thus really mindless. But, says such an one, the Godhead took the place of the human intellect. How does this touch me? For Godhead joined to flesh alone is not man, nor to soul alone, nor to both apart from intellect, which is the most essential part of man. Keep then the whole man, and mingle Godhead therewith, that you may benefit me in my completeness." - St. Gregory Nazianzus to Cledonius, Against Apollinarianism



How does the transformation of our bodies in the resurrection relate to the present discussion?

-CryptoLutheran

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You are the second person to give me 4th century literature as though it`s inspired scripture. I never heard of Apollinarianism until now. I had to look it up to find out what you are talking about. I believe what God says about Himself and my views are based on the Torah and the witness of those who knew Jesus.

Isaiah 47 -> As for our redeemer, the Lord of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.