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Featured Amended* God cannot die and question regarding the Hypostatic union

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Ann77, Sep 28, 2020.

  1. Ann77

    Ann77 Member

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    I have a question that I've been wondering about ever since I've been responding to Muslims and Jews regarding the crucifixion. Some say Jesus' human flesh only died on the cross and not His devine nature. When we respond saying Jesus' human nature died on the cross, does this include a human soul since a human nature isn't just physical flesh, and would that mean Jesus had two Spirit's, His divine and human? I'm not trying to believe anything heretical. I honestly don't know. I've heard a popular Christian apologist say only his flesh died and nothing further. This seems off.

    *Amended

    New Question regarding the Hypostatic Union.

    Jesus is two natures one person.
    Jesus is 100 % human and a 100% devine.

    How many persons is Jesus?
    Is the Union denying a human soul is a person?

    I prefer traditional Christians to answer this.
    Answers coming from non Trinitarians, Mormons and physicalists will be disregarded.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  2. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Jesus is/was/is divine. His human body died on the cross, but nothing else. According to Scripture "The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God." Romans 6:10
     
  3. Ann77

    Ann77 Member

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    What does it mean to say that Jesus is 100% man and 100 % God? We aren't just flesh. This is what I'm wondering about. Again, not trying to believe anything heretical.
     
  4. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Jesus--the Person--died on the cross. That Person is both God and man. We can't say only Jesus' human nature died, because that splits Jesus in half. Jesus is a single, united Person, simultaneously completely God and completely human.

    That means that God died as a man on the cross.

    Jesus, as a human being, has a human body, a human soul, a human mind, and a human will. In fact we confess that Jesus is "like us in all ways but without sin". That's the only thing, in regard to His humanity, that is different about Him, we are sinners and He was and is without sin.

    As God, Jesus also has the Divine will. So Jesus has two wills, one human and one Divine, but these are always in perfect agreement.

    Here is how most Christians--Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant--confess things:

    "We then, following the holy fathers, all in agreement teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who is at once fully God and also fully human. He is truly God and also truly man of a rational [human] soul and body. He is of one substance with the Father as regards His Deity, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards His humanity, like us in all ways but without sin. As concerns His Deity He is eternally begotten of the Father, but as concerns His humanity born, for us men and for our salvation, of the Virgin Mary the God-bearer. One and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only-begotten, confessed in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation, the distinction of natures being in no way dissolved by the union, but rather the qualities of each nature being preserved and coming together and concurring in one Person and Hypostasis. Not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, only-begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ. As the prophets from the beginning have said concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has been handed down to us."

    The above is the statement of faith drawn up at the ancient Council of Chalcedon (451 AD).

    Don't be afraid of the statement that God died on the cross, the Bible clearly teaches us this when we read,

    "Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood." - Acts of the Apostles 20:28

    God shed His human blood on the cross.
    God died a human death on the cross.
    God suffered as a human being.

    God cannot die--but yet He died. That's the mystery of the Incarnation. This is the beauty and scandal of the cross.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  5. Ann77

    Ann77 Member

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    Thank you! I hear so many say only His flesh died.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  6. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    John 1
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    In my opinion Jesus wasn`t human until He became flesh.

    Jesus stated that He was sent John 5:36-38, 6:29,38-40,44,57 etc. etc. etc. He said He was sent multiple times through John 16

    Of particular interest is John 16:27-28. Here Jesus states that He came forth from within God. With all this in mind I believe that Jesus inner man is pure Deity.
     
  7. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    What is your understanding of a "human soul" ?
     
  8. Ann77

    Ann77 Member

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    It's who we are; the soul is non physical and eternal. I'm not a physicalist so maybe we would disagree.
     
  9. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    What is your issue with the view that only Jesus flesh died?
     
  10. Ann77

    Ann77 Member

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    He is 100% man and 100% God. 1 Timothy 2:5

    Humans have souls, right? Are you saying His human flesh only suffered and not His nature experiencing physical death?
     
  11. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    I believe the inner man or your spirit separates from your flesh at death. So, what Jesus experienced when His flesh died was probably the same.

    Having said that, I believe the inner Jesus was/is Diety based on what He said about Himself in the book of John and on other scripture as well.

    1 Corinthians 15

    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
     
  12. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    well I'm not a physicalist either .... I go by what God Word teaches what a soul is ....

    a soul is a person ... a living being.

    We are not immortal (eternal) in any way. That's the main point about Jesus .... He is going to give us immortality (eternal life) when He returns.

    1 Corinthians 15:51

    51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (from mortal to immortal). 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

    so regarding the OP .... Jesus being God is immortal .... He came in the form of a man .... and suffered in that form ... even suffering separation from the Father for a period of time while in that form. So He alone was/is immortal in the form of a mortal man.
     
  13. Ann77

    Ann77 Member

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    What you're quoting is regarding the future resurrection with new bodies that will no longer decay. Our mortal bodies have to now become immortal to clothe our souls. It has nothing to do with a mortal soul.

    Peter, by implication, suggests that the human “spirit” is “incorruptible” (1 Pet. 3:4). Why would a person need “incorruptible” apparel for a “corruptible” spirit? Thus, the human spirit, by deduction, is incorruptible.

    Both the wicked and those redeemed in Christ have immortal souls.

    (Mark 9:48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
     
  14. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    On the Timothy verse,sorry I overlooked it. In His role as mediator Jesus operates as our High Priest and this passage speaks to that because it is in this role that the humanity of Jesus is expressed.
     
  15. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Mark 9:48 is taken from Isa 66:24. In that chapter the future salvation of Jerusalem as well as the judgment on unbelievers are depicted. Interestingly enough v. 24 talks about corpses or dead bodies which are affected by the worm and the fire. These are not living beings anymore. The word "worm" is found in the singular and not in the plural. The fire is unquenchable in the sense that nobody can quench it until it has done its work. In Jer 17:27 the destruction of Jerusalem is announced which took place when the Babylonians conquered the city .The fire could not be quenched. But today it does not burn any longer. It burned until it had consumed what can be consumed. After that it was extinguished.

    Thus, neither the fire nor the worm are eternal. The text does not talk about a soul either, separated from the body. If such a soul would exist, it would not be affected by worm or fire anyway. On the other hand, the worm cannot be equated with the disembodied soul of humans. The worm is "their worm", namely those who stood in opposition to God and have now passed away. It is so to speak not an individual worm. The worm is furthermore so closely related to fire that it must be regarded as a means of destruction similar to the fire. Nowhere in the Bible is a worm identified with the soul. Living human beings can be compared to worms (Ps 22:6 and Job 25:6). However, when they die they become food for the worms, as Isaiah stresses in Isa 14:ll. In other words, within the Book of Isaiah "worm" is a term that relates to judgment. It is not a human part that lives on.

    Mark 9:48 takes this figure of speech from Isaiah, which points to the unavoidable destruction and applies it to those who do not live according to the will of God. That it is indeed a figure of speech is obvious, since the worm exists in conjunction with fire, which is not possible in our natural world. Jesus connects the worm and the fire to the hell, gehenna. Gehenna is derived from the Hebrew word Hinnom, designating the valley south of Jerusalem (see Jer 7:32-34) in which according to tradition trash and even corpses were burnt. The lake of fire in Rev 20 seems to point to the same reality. The unbelievers are devoured by fire. The lake of fire is the second death (Rev 20:9,10,15). By using this imagery Jesus warns against the consequences of not following him and against the final judgment which will end with the complete annihilation of all evil and all evil ones.

    The Bible teaches that humans are mortal. According to 1Tim 6:14-16 God alone is immortal. He bestows immortality as a gift on those who experience the first resurrection (1 Cor 15:51-54). Eternal life is always dependent on Christ and not attainable in separation from him (Rom 6:23; John 3:36; 5:24; 1 John 5:11, 12), not even in hell. The term "soul" normally stands for human beings. The Bible clearly teaches that the soul can and will die (Eze 18:4; James 5:20; Rev 20:4; Ps 89:48; Job 36: 14; Lev 19:8; 21: 1, 11. These texts contain the term "soul."
     
  16. Ann77

    Ann77 Member

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    So you're saying their bodies are consumed eventually? The worm does not die because the body isn't consumed. The worm is eternally their worm because it does not die. That means it's fuel source is eternal.
     
  17. Ann77

    Ann77 Member

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    Wouldn't two Spirit's mean two persons? Isn't the Hypostatic union a divine and human nature in the single person? Would the Hypostatic union say the human soul is not a person? I guess I'm confused. I know I should know this already.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2020
  18. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth Supporter

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    @Ann77
    God, Who is eternal, cannot possibly cease to live... He is Spirit, and His Spirit lives forever. Physical death is not the cessation of existence, nor does the born again human spirit cease to "live" (IOW, have conscious existence) at physical death, but it is the separation of the soul and spirit from the body. When Jesus died physically, His Divine Nature did not cease to exist, but was simply separated from His human body... His Soul and Spirit descended into Hades, and then reunited with His body at His resurrection. Hope that helps.

    Trying to figure out exactly how to describe and/or define the union between Jesus' humanity and Divinity is a futile exercise IMO. The Bible simply states that He is God, and He is human, and gives us precious little more than that... going much beyond what the Scripture says is just philosophical speculation, which is uncertain at best and counterproductive at worst. If our salvation depended upon exactly how we viewed the intricacies of the Hypostatic Union, an in depth description of it would have been included in Scripture. As there are no clear answers to be found in the Bible, and, the condemnations of the later ecumenical councils aside, it really has little to no relevance that I can think of to my salvation or sanctification, I don't much worry about it. Seriously, it seems people can't even agree on how exactly to define the difference, or explain in detail the interaction, between the soul and spirit in us regular humans! Why should we expect to fully define or understand the complex interactions of a Divine human?!? Just my two cents worth. God bless you all;
    Michael
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  19. Ann77

    Ann77 Member

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    I'm not sure about the part of Christ descending to Hades. Everything else I pretty much agree with.
    Thank you.
     
  20. food4thought

    food4thought Loving truth Supporter

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    It can be seen by looking at several NT Scriptures, as well as the Apostle's Creed. First, look at how Peter applies Psalm 16 to Jesus in Acts 2:25-31, particularly the last sentence. Note that in the translation I am using (NASB), all caps means it is an OT quote... No, I'm not yelling at you lol:

    "For David says of Him, 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.' "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. (Acts 2:25-31)​


    Taking that into consideration, it helps us understand what Paul meant in Ephesians 4:8-10...

    Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:8-10)​

    The way I understand it, this passage indicates that when Jesus was physically dead, He descended into hades (see also Luke 16:19-31, where Jesus revealed that there were two compartments in hades that held the pre-resurrection dead, a place of torment and what Jesus called "Abraham's bosom"). According to this understanding of Ephesians 4:8-10, when Jesus ascended, He brought with Him the faithful OT saints who were in Abraham's bosom, and took them with Him to heaven. Short side note: when the ancient Jews translated the OT Scriptures into Greek, the Hebrew word sheol, which is the OT word for the realm of the dead, was translated into the Greek word hades, which had a similar meaning in Greek culture. It is important to note that the NT usage of the word should definitely be understood in the way the OT described sheol, with the addition of Christ's clarification in Luke 16.

    Finally, we have the witness of the most widely accepted creed of orthodox Christianity, the Apostle's Creed (Catholic version... no, I am not Catholic):

    I believe in God,
    the Father almighty,
    Creator of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died and was buried;
    he descended into hell; [note inserted by me: the Greek word translated "hell" is actually hades]
    on the third day he rose again from the dead;
    he ascended into heaven,
    and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
    from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting.
    Amen.
    Of course, I would reject the relevant line of the creed if it was not supported by the Scriptures I mentioned. Hope this helps. God bless you;
    Michael
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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