Is division and denomination bad?

Albion · Sep 3, 2020

Nova2216 said:
Just b/c they "agree to disagree" on differing doctrines while trying to show a false unity does not mean God condones their differing creed books.

No, but that isn't what this discussion is about. Or wasn't about when it started.

Nova2216 · Sep 3, 2020

Albion said:
No, but that isn't what this discussion is about. Or wasn't about when it started.

This goes to the heart of the matter.

Would you agree that each time a creed book is authored by men division is created?

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Albion · Sep 3, 2020

Nova2216 said:
This goes to the heart of the matter.

Would you agree that each time a creed book is authored by men division is created?

What do you mean by "creed book?"

Nova2216 · Sep 4, 2020

Albion said:
What do you mean by "creed book?"

Creed book - A book written by men which either adds to or subtracts from the word of God (the bible).

Every denomination has one.

The bible is complete and sufficient (2Peter 1:3) (2Tm. 3:14-17) (James 1:25).

...2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness...

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Albion · Sep 4, 2020

Nova2216 said:
Creed book - A book written by men which either adds to or subtracts from the word of God (the bible).

Every denomination has one.

Not to my knowledge. Of course, there are a jillion books that different people have written on some aspect of religion or other, but that doesn't sound like what you are referring to.

concretecamper · Sep 27, 2020

Nova2216 said:
The bible is complete and sufficient (2Peter 1:3) (2Tm. 3:14-17) (James 1:25).

2 Peter 1:3 doesnt mention bible
2 Tim 3:14-17 doesnt mention bible
James 1:25 doesnt mention bible.

Just keeping it real.

Nova2216 · Sep 27, 2020

concretecamper said:
2 Peter 1:3 doesnt mention bible
2 Tim 3:14-17 doesnt mention bible
James 1:25 doesnt mention bible.

Just keeping it real.

All of the verses were referring to the revelation of the Lord.

"ALL" the words of that revelation were given to the apostles according to (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13) (2Peter 1:3).

TRUE / FALSE

concretecamper · Sep 27, 2020

You first said

Nova2216 said:
The bible is complete and sufficient (2Peter 1:3) (2Tm. 3:14-17) (James 1:25).

but the verses you quote dont say anything about the bible yet alone claiming it is complete.

Then you say:

Nova2216 said:
All of the verses were referring to the revelation of the Lord.

which is totally different than what you said before.

So which claim do you want me to say true/false to, the first or the second?

Nova2216 · Sep 27, 2020

concretecamper said:
You first said

but the verses you quote dont say anything about the bible yet alone claiming it is complete.

Then you say:

which is totally different than what you said before.

So which claim do you want me to say true/false to, the first or the second?

It seems you have misunderstood the scriptures I posted.

The scriptures need not mention the bible since they are found within the bible.

The Holy Spirit was to help the Apostles remember "ALL" the words Jesus spoke to them (the apostles). (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13)

We learn in (2Peter 1:3) the Lord gave the Apostles "all things pertaining to life and godliness".

(Jas. 1:25) uses the word Perfect (or complete).

(2Tim. 3:16,17) uses the word "Perfect". (or complete)

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

TRUE / FALSE

concretecamper · Sep 27, 2020

Nova2216 said:
It seems you have misunderstood the scriptures I posted.

no, I am challenging YOU not to read more into what the scriptures actually say.

Nova2216 said:
The scriptures need not mention the bible since they are found within the bible.

I was pointing out the scriptures you are referring to DO NOT reference the Bible.

Nova2216 said:
The Holy Spirit was to help the Apostles remember "ALL" the words Jesus spoke to them (the apostles). (Jn 14:26 ; 16:13)

ok, but ALL the words Jesus spoke ARE NOT in the bible.

Nova2216 said:
We learn in (2Peter 1:3) the Lord gave the Apostles "all things pertaining to life and godliness".

ok, but you must first prove that all things pertaining to life and godliness are included in the bible. Which you cannot prove.

Nova2216 said:
(Jas. 1:25) uses the word Perfect (or complete).

see previous 2 posts

Nova2216 said:
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

the scriptures Timothy knew from his youth is the Tanakh, not the Bible.

Listen, it is up to you to beleive that the bible alone is to be followed. But since it is not scriptural, dont be surprised if others dont do as you do.

Nova2216 · Sep 27, 2020

concretecamper said:
no, I am challenging YOU not to read more into what the scriptures actually say.

I was pointing out the scriptures you are referring to DO NOT reference the Bible.
ok, but ALL the words Jesus spoke ARE NOT in the bible.
ok, but you must first prove that all things pertaining to life and godliness are included in the bible. Which you cannot prove.
see previous 2 posts
the scriptures Timothy knew from his youth is the Tanakh, not the Bible.

Listen, it is up to you to beleive that the bible alone is to be followed. But since it is not scriptural, dont be surprised if others dont do as you do.

I am not surprised at all people refuse the truth. (Acts 28:24)

(1Tim. 1:3) ... that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

(1Tim. 4:1-4) (2Tim. 4:1-4)

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

concretecamper · Sep 27, 2020

Nova2216 said:
I am not surprised at all people refuse the truth. (Acts 28:24)

dont fault me if I stick with what Christ taught over what you teach. God bless

Nova2216 · Sep 27, 2020

concretecamper said:
dont fault me if I stick with what Christ taught over what you teach. God bless

Please apply (Gal. 6;1,2) and steer me right.

Ga 6:1 ¶ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Which church should I be attending to please God?

Hazelelponi · Sep 27, 2020

Jesusthekingofking said:
we have thousand of denominations due to division. Leaders have their 'own' understanding and opinions after they read the bible. It's sad I think it's how the Lord want it to be done. If you read the church history all the way up to now, you'll see godly servants of the Lord broke from their origin church and start their own denomination, some turned out to be good and some became really bad, in short no perfect church. Well it's sad and hard to swallow to see so much division for someone who's new to the faith but it's the reality.

I personally believed God is in charge of this, until Jesus's 2nd coming it will stay what is it, what do you think?

(different groups or churches is challenging to a new believer, he might ask 'so which church/community should I go to?')

The Bible says:

NIV "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval." 1 Corinthians 11:19

KJV: "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." 1 Corinthians 11:19

Since God knows man's heart, it's not to show God anything... therefore the divisions make it easier for God's people to recognize one another.

This text also notes the necessity of the divisions/heresies/ factions.. this is necessary for God's people to see those who stand in truth versus those who stand in error...

So, while in practical terms division or heresy is never desirable, it is helpful to us to recognize true believers from false.

concretecamper · Sep 27, 2020

Nova2216 said:
Ga 6:1 ¶ Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

I can see that anyone that doesnt agree with you or YOUR interpretation of scripture (even though you have failed to substantiate your interpretations) is at fault. Good luck.

Nova2216 · Sep 28, 2020

concretecamper said:
I can see that anyone that doesnt agree with you or YOUR interpretation of scripture (even though you have failed to substantiate your interpretations) is at fault. Good luck.

I asked for help. Are you not concerned about my soul?

Hazelelponi · Sep 29, 2020

Nova2216 said:
They do not all get along fine and I know this b/c they have buildings which separate each other during worship, they have creed books which do not harmonize with each other. (1Cor.1:10) (Phil. 3:16-19)

The Church established by Christ is in the Bible ecclesia, and it denotes God's people throughout time, both old testament and new.

The church in the Bible is not only us who are alive today, but those already passed from this life...

However, that doesn't stop us having church buildings or local congregations, as we see in Acts of the Apostles 11:19-26 the mention of the church in Antioch.

Revelations mentions the 7 local church congregations back in that time, all of which had particular challenges to overcome.

There is a universal church that spans time and space, of which all believers are a member of, and then there are local congregations. Sometimes those local congregations have challenges they need to overcome, but of which God's people also belong.

Part of being the body of Christ means also to be part of a local body as well, where we may carry out things like baptism, like the Lord's Supper, like the encouragement and edifying of believers as we ourselves are being edifyed and encouraged.

So there are two things when speaking of the Church, not one. One is universal across time and space, and one is local.

Local is more likely to have a place to congregate in than not, but it's not in order to "divide", it's in order to congregate regardless of weather while carrying out the particular edicts of our faith in the physical.

A particular challenge of our faith is that the wheat and the tares will grow together until the harvest, which is most clearly seen in local congregations, but even still, doesn't stop or prevent Christ's Church from being just that, His Church.

Nova2216 · Sep 29, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
The Church established by Christ is in the Bible ecclesia, and it denotes God's people throughout time, both old testament and new.

The church in the Bible is not only us who are alive today, but those already passed from this life...

However, that doesn't stop us having church buildings or local congregations, as we see in Acts of the Apostles 11:19-26 the mention of the church in Antioch.

Revelations mentions the 7 local church congregations back in that time, all of which had particular challenges to overcome.

There is a universal church that spans time and space, of which all believers are a member of, and then there are local congregations. Sometimes those local congregations have challenges they need to overcome, but of which God's people also belong.

Part of being the body of Christ means also to be part of a local body as well, where we may carry out things like baptism, like the Lord's Supper, like the encouragement and edifying of believers as we ourselves are being edifyed and encouraged.

So there are two things when speaking of the Church, not one. One is universal across time and space, and one is local.

Local is more likely to have a place to congregate in than not, but it's not in order to "divide", it's in order to congregate regardless of weather while carrying out the particular edicts of our faith in the physical.

A particular challenge of our faith is that the wheat and the tares will grow together until the harvest, which is most clearly seen in local congregations, but even still, doesn't stop or prevent Christ's Church from being just that, His Church.

You have made some very good points.

I appreciate it.

Would you agree those 7 churches were all the same church in Asia and they all used the very same book (Rev. 1:11)?

Denominations of today use differing creed books (separate and apart from the bible).

Albion · Sep 29, 2020

We still have no idea what you mean by "creed books."

Nova2216 · Sep 29, 2020

Albion said:
We still have no idea what you mean by "creed books."

There are only two reasons for a creed book.
1. Subtract from the Bible.
2. Add to the Bible.

Both are wrong according to (Deut.4:2) (1Cor.4:6) (Rev. 22:18,19).

Is division and denomination bad?

Facilitator

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Facilitator

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Facilitator

Member of His Church

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Member of His Church

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Member of His Church

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Member of His Church

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

:sighing:

Member of His Church

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

:sighing:

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

Facilitator

If truth is discounted then lies become normal.

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