Covenant and New Covenant theology

jgr said:

Who is the seed?

1. Jews
2. Christ

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

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Salvation came from the Jews. (John 4:22)

Jesus was born a Jew, a descendant from Abraham, as Matthew 1 stated.

Guojing said:

Yes, the nation Israel has fallen, and is the same as any other nation now.

That does not mean God has no special plan for this particular nation in the future.

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God has a Plan for every apostate and ungodly person. It is told to us in Isaiah 66:15-17
The Jewish people get a special mention in Zephaniah 1:1-18, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 11:9-17, Romans 9:27....only a remnant will survive.

keras said:

God has a Plan for every apostate and ungodly person. It is told to us in Isaiah 66:15-17
The Jewish people get a special mention in Zephaniah 1:1-18, Amos 2:4-5, Jeremiah 11:9-17, Romans 9:27....only a remnant will survive.

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but you don’t agree that there is still a plan for the nation?

Guojing said:

Yes, the nation Israel has fallen, and is the same as any other nation now.

That does not mean God has no special plan for this particular nation in the future.

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God has no plan for anyone outside of Christ and His Church now or in the future.

Irrespective of their nation.

Guojing said:

Salvation came from the Jews. (John 4:22)

Jesus was born a Jew, a descendant from Abraham, as Matthew 1 stated.

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So your Bible reads:

Genesis 13
15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seeds for ever.

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seeds were the promises made. He saith not, And to seed, as of one; but as of many, And to thy seeds, which is Jews.

What version is that?

jgr said:

God has no plan for anyone outside of Christ and His Church now or in the future.

Irrespective of their nation.

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Alright then, we can disagree about that.

Guojing said:

but you don’t agree that there is still a plan for the nation?

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I have told you the truth about the Jewish State of Israel. They do not have a legitimate claim to the name of Israel at all.
At present they are just another one of the world's nations, their citizens mainly atheistic and with no interest in Christianity. God is soon to punish them, along with all the godless peoples, on His terrible Day of fiery wrath.

The teaching of a general Jewish redemption is a tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory. Neither is Biblical and neither will happen.

Guojing said:

Yes, the nation Israel has fallen, and is the same as any other nation now.

That does not mean God has no special plan for this particular nation in the future.

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Below we find the spiritual condition of earthly Jerusalem right before the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead, in Revelation 11:15-18.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


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Guojing said:

But there is still the nation Israel that God had not forgotten, and God will fulfill his promise made to their father Abraham in the future, as Paul explained in Romans 11.

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God *has* fulfilled His promise made to Abraham through Jesus. As JGR is pointing out.... the promise was to the seed (singular) of Abraham....pointing to Christ Jesus.

As I've posted before... the most grievous form of Replacement Theology is the one that steals away the completed fulfillment of the promises through Christ....and replaces that for a future anticipated fulfillment through a secular geopolitical entity that the Bible was never even referring to. IOW....that theological framework replaces Christ Jesus with a secular geopolitical formation named by humans (not God).

As far as what the Bible says (specifically Paul) about the promises to Adam, Abraham, Moses, and David....

Guojing said:

Yes, the nation Israel has fallen, and is the same as any other nation now.

That does not mean God has no special plan for this particular nation in the future.

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This is overlooking what was revealed to Peter........



....and biblical apostate Israel (old covenant Israelites) are now gone....vanished from earth. There is no longer Sinai Judaism.That entire religious system was removed from this earth in 70 AD.

The modern geopolitical entity has nothing to do with what was written in the Scriptures.

mkgal1 said:

The modern geopolitical entity has nothing to do with what was written in the Scriptures.

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However; the Jewish State of Israel is referred to in Jesus prophecy of the fig tree budding. Matthew 24:32-34
The generation; those born when Judah regains nationhood, will see it all. That is: All the prophesied events of the end times and the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.

It is our privilege to be alive at this pivotal point in human history. As Christians, we must be careful to keep firm in our faith thru all that must come and stand before Jesus without any stain of sin upon us.

mkgal1 said:

This is overlooking what was revealed to Peter........

Acts 10:34-36 ~ Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. This is the message of Good News for the people of Israel—that there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.​

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If Peter really meant how you interpret him as saying, that God has no future plans for Israel, then his letters to Israel in 1 and 2 Peter will make no sense.

Guojing said:

If Peter really meant how you interpret him as saying, that God has no future plans for Israel, then his letters to Israel in 1 and 2 Peter will make no sense.

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1 Peter 1:1-2, makes it quite clear that he was writing to the scattered people of God, chosen and obedient to Jesus Christ by His blood.
The true Israelites, the Overcomers for God, be they from the 12 tribes or from every race, nation and language.

keras said:

1 Peter 1:1-2, makes it quite clear that he was writing to the scattered people of God, chosen and obedient to Jesus Christ by His blood.
The true Israelites, the Overcomers for God, be they from the 12 tribes or from every race, nation and language.

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Its only clear in your mind because you are unable to move away from your doctrine and read the Bible properly.

Only Israelites can be scattered people of God, not Gentiles. Israel was a nation born of God (Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9).

Gentile believers do not belong to any nation that is born of God, so it makes no sense to described them as scattered.

Furthermore, Peter himself agreed in Galatians 2:9 to restrict his ministry only to the circumcision, so he won't be writing a letter to gentile believers after that.

Guojing said:

Its only clear in your mind because you are unable to move away from your doctrine and read the Bible properly.

Only Israelites can be scattered people of God, not Gentiles. Israel was a nation born by God (Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9).

Gentile believers do not belong to any nation that is born of God, so it makes no sense to described them as scattered.

Furthermore, Peter himself agreed in Galatians 2:9 to restrict his ministry only to the circumcision, so he won't be writing a letter to gentile believers after that.

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Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Most Bible scholars would agree that the Book of James was written to the Church.


Where were the remnants of the Northern tribes when James wrote his letter?
Had they become mixed in with the Gentiles, as were the Samaritans?


This is one of the passages which kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.


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BABerean2 said:

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


Most Bible scholars would agree that the Book of James was written to the Church.


Where were the remnants of the Northern tribes when James wrote his letter?
Had they become mixed in with the Gentiles, as were the Samaritans?


This is one of the passages which kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.


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When you say "most bible scholars", what you usually mean is "Me and the people I choose to quote from".

Again my question is, "When did Paul ever called the Body of Christ, the 12 tribes?"

I look forward to you giving a clear answer to this question, but from experience, you won't.

All my points I have said in that post you replied to, also apply to your reply.

Guojing said:

Its only clear in your mind because you are unable to move away from your doctrine and read the Bible properly.

Only Israelites can be scattered people of God, not Gentiles. Israel was a nation born of God (Exodus 4:22, Jeremiah 31:9).

Gentile believers do not belong to any nation that is born of God, so it makes no sense to described them as scattered.

Furthermore, Peter himself agreed in Galatians 2:9 to restrict his ministry only to the circumcision, so he won't be writing a letter to gentile believers after that.

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Israelites were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles from the very beginning. (Genesis 17:12;Exodus 12:48;Exodus 12:49;Leviticus 19:34;Leviticus 24:22).

Do you think you'll ever understand that?

jgr said:

Israelites were comprised of both Jews and Gentiles from the very beginning. (Genesis 17:12;Exodus 12:48;Exodus 12:49;Leviticus 19:34;Leviticus 24:22).

Do you think you'll ever understand that?

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We have already debated this before. So let's not go thru that non-convergent discussion again.

Anyway, in all those passages you have used, Gentiles ceased to become gentiles, they have converted to Judaism and became Jews.

That is not the case today.

Guojing said:

When you say "most bible scholars", what you usually mean is "Me and the people I choose to quote from".

Again my question is, "When did Paul ever called the Body of Christ, the 12 tribes?"

I look forward to you giving a clear answer to this question, but from experience, you won't.

All my points I have said in that post you replied to, also apply to your reply.

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Why are you attempting to ignore what is found in James 1:1-3?


What did Paul say in Romans 11:1-5?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

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Guojing said:

Again my question is, "When did Paul ever called the Body of Christ, the 12 tribes?"

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Acts 26:7 The twelve tribes worship with intense devotion in the hope of the fulfillment of the Promise.....
Paul quotes the 12 Tribes, ALL the Israelites.
The Promise to them was fulfilled in the Seed of Abraham, namely in Jesus. The 2 tribes of Judah rejected Jesus, but the 10 Northern tribes - the ones Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24, have mainly become Christian.
When the final gathering takes place, all those who rebel and refuse Jesus will not enter the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38

keras said:

Acts 26:7 The twelve tribes worship with intense devotion in the hope of the fulfillment of the Promise.....
Paul quotes the 12 Tribes, ALL the Israelites.
The Promise to them was fulfilled in the Seed of Abraham, namely in Jesus. The 2 tribes of Judah rejected Jesus, but the 10 Northern tribes - the ones Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24, have mainly become Christian.
When the final gathering takes place, all those who rebel and refuse Jesus will not enter the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38

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Paul is referring to the nation Israel there.

I don't see any reference to the Body of Christ at all. You are trying to read that into Acts 26:7