Covenant and New Covenant theology

BABerean2 · Aug 20, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The author of Hebrews seems to be making this their major point ....quoted below (and I'm still struggling to see what that has to do with Colossians 2:16-17).

What makes the New Covenant superior is that the mediator is God - not fallible humans. Finally, in the New Covenant, all the People of God’s covenant are united in their devotion to God. That topic doesn't seem connected to Colossians? It seems like there's an assumption being made about what Studyman has posted.

Hebrews 7:15-16
15And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16one who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the power of an indestructible life

The 4th commandment reveals the truth about the contrast between the two covenants.

We are not to kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. under the New Covenant. However, Matthew 5 reveals the new standard under the New Covenant when Christ quotes from the Old Covenant and then adds "But I say...".

During the Old Covenant a man could be stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath day.

Colossians 2:16-17 reveals the change.

We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but are come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion in Hebrews 12:22-24.

The 4th commandment was the "sign" of the Sinai Covenant.

The following has some good information about the Sabbath, although I may disagree with a few things in it.

The Old Covenant/ New Covenant and the Sabbath:

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Studyman · Aug 20, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The author of Hebrews seems to be making this their major point ....quoted below (and I'm still struggling to see what that has to do with Colossians 2:16-17).

What makes the New Covenant superior is that the mediator is God - not fallible humans. Finally, in the New Covenant, all the People of God’s covenant are united in their devotion to God. That topic doesn't seem connected to Colossians? It seems like there's an assumption being made about what Studyman has posted.

Hebrews 7:15-16
15And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16one who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the power of an indestructible life

Yes, the two are unrelated in my view as well. The New Covenant is about How God's Laws are administered, and how transgression of His Laws are atoned for, as can be clearly seen when reading the Christ's own definition of his Own New Covenant..

In Col 2 Paul is warning about religious philosophies of men, doctrines and traditions of men, rudiments of the world, taught as Law for centuries, and tells Gentiles not to let these religious men judge them for their obedience and faithfulness to God. HIS Laws have meaning, some are shadows of what has yet to be fulfilled, (Feast of Atonement) some are reminders of what has already happened. (Passover)

Religious doctrines and commandments of man, that the Mainstream Preachers of His Time taught as Law, are shadows of nothing. Jesus exposed these "handwriting" (As opposed to written with the finger of God) of ordinances" that were against us, because they were not from God, but from religious men. He made a show of them openly, and triumphed over them, He didn't triumph over God's Laws as many imply. It was THEIR Law that condemned HIM, not God's. And God made this clear when HE raised Jesus from the death their Law declared HE deserved.

Religious men have always judged those who humble themselves to the God of the Bible as the story of Abel and Caleb and Stephen and especially Jesus shows.

Religious men teach God took away HIS Law in the New covenant, but the Holy scriptures say God took away the Levitical Priesthood because they became Partial in the law. HE Said He doesn't take His Laws away, He writes them on the hearts of His People so they don't forget them.

I am trying to point these issues out and have a discussion regarding them for the edification of us all.

I am glad you too, can see there is no connection between Col 2 and Jer. 31.

BABerean2 · Aug 20, 2020

Guojing said:
You should avoid anticipating revelation. With the benefit of the mystery revealed to Paul, we could of course understand those passages fully now.

But that does not mean the Jews during the period of Matthew to Acts understood Isaiah 53 and Jeremiah like we do. It was hidden from them.

Otherwise Peter would not have rebuked Jesus for telling them he had to die. He is a Jew and was brought up with the OT.

Your claims fall apart below on the Day of Pentecost when Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", and about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, while Paul was not yet a believer.
Every member of the Church that day was an Israelite. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.

Dispensationalists often refer to the modern Church as a "Gentile Church", even though it is now made up of all races of people.
This is done in an effort to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
It is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race.
Its chief error is the claim God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

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Studyman · Aug 20, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Pastor Dale Ratzlaff on the Sabbath in the New Covenant:

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
Act 20:8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
Act 20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.

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In the Covenant God made with Levi, on Israel's behalf, there were Priests who were given the exclusive duty to tell the truth about God. But according to the Examples God had written for our admonition, these Priests started omitting Laws, and creating their own. These are not my doctrines, but HIS Teaching that I have posted several times. In Jer 31 this God Promised of a time to come, when we no longer have to rely on religious men to administer God's Laws for us. No more temples made of wood and stone, no more Preachers or Priests to perform ceremonial "Works" for the atonement of sins. And here we are today, with HIS Book of the Law in every home, internet, store, in most every corner of the world, so that those who are seeking HIM, have Direct Access to His Word without the filter of corrupt religious men.

And yet, there are still religious men who believe we must go outside the Bible, and find "another voice", to teach us what HE says. That we still must go to a temple made of wood and stone to hear this "other voice".

What I'm saying is God is faithful to teach those truly seeking Him, HIS Ways through the Holy Scriptures Paul said makes us wise unto Salvation.

So I believe we should accept the Christ's Own Definition of HIS Own New Covenant, and not the traditions and doctrines, and religious philosophies of men which change with the wind. You can find a preacher to promote any religion, they are too many to count. But there is only ONE Word of God which became Flesh.

As the Christ Himself inspired it to be written.

Ecc. 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

BABerean2 · Aug 20, 2020

Studyman said:
In the Covenant God made with Levi, on Israel's behalf, there were Priests who were given the exclusive duty to tell the truth about God.

Do we find only the Levites in the verse below?

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The truth about God is revealed by all of His word, including the scripture which kills man-made doctrines.

The narrative you are promoting is not found in the Bible.

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Guojing · Aug 20, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Your claims fall apart below on the Day of Pentecost when Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", and about 3,000 Israelites accepted the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, while Paul was not yet a believer.
Every member of the Church that day was an Israelite. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.

Dispensationalists often refer to the modern Church as a "Gentile Church", even though it is now made up of all races of people.
This is done in an effort to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
It is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race.
Its chief error is the claim God did not fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

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Are you addressing another point? My point was that Israel salvation is a future event, when Jesus return for the nation

BABerean2 · Aug 20, 2020

Guojing said:
Are you addressing another point? My point was that Israel salvation is a future event, when Jesus return for the nation

Your point is not found in the Bible.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

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Studyman · Aug 20, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Do we find only the Levites in the verse below?

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The truth about God is revealed by all of His word, including the scripture which kills man-made doctrines.

The narrative you are promoting is not found in the Bible.

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The Covenant God gave to Levi to administer His Laws is not found in your religion, because you have omitted it. But the Scriptures I have posted, and you have blatantly ignored, most certainly detail it.

Duet. 10:8 At that time the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day.

9 Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him.

But Levi corrupted this Covenant God gave to HIM, because he also omitted much of God's Laws.

Mal. 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name. (Ex. 32:26)

So once again I am in the place Eve found herself. I have God's Voice which plainly teaches that God made a Covenant with Levi on Israel's behalf. And I have your voice saying HE didn't. There was a time when I might listen to the "other voice". But not since the Christ wrote His Laws on my heart.

6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.

7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

The Shepherds were supposed to teach men God's Laws. But instead, they omitted God's Laws and created their own religion. Much in the same way modern men create their own religion. A religion in which there was NO Covenant with Levi. A religion of men.

8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

So what did this Christ of the Bible do, at least according to the Holy scriptures?

Heb. 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, (Levite Priests that Corrupted God's Covenant with them) he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

"A New Covenant", as He says, "I will become their High Priest Myself".

But Jesus wasn't from the Tribe of Levi that God exclusively Separated from Israel and gave the Priesthood. So the Priesthood Law regarding who could become the High Priest, had to change, "by necessity".

It is true that there are "other voices" many post and rely on for their understanding, that do not teach this truth. Just as the Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time didn't teach Biblical Truth.

My hope is that you might consider these things and "turn to the Words of the Christ of the Bible", and away from the religious philosophies and traditions of men, as Paul warned in Col. 2.

Guojing · Aug 20, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Your point is not found in the Bible.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

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Try Acts 3:19-21 and 1 Peter 1:3-9

mkgal1 · Aug 20, 2020

Studyman said:
But Jesus wasn't from the Tribe of Judah that God exclusively Separated from Israel and gave the Priesthood.

Studyman.....I think you meant to type "Jesus wasn't from theTribe of Aaron" there.

Studyman · Aug 20, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Studyman.....I think you meant to type "Jesus wasn't from theTribe of Aaron" there.

You are absolutely correct. I meant "Levi" not Judah.

Good catch

mkgal1 · Aug 20, 2020

BABerean2 said:
The 4th commandment reveals the truth about the contrast between the two covenants.

We are not to kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. under the New Covenant. However, Matthew 5 reveals the new standard under the New Covenant when Christ quotes from the Old Covenant and then adds "But I say...".

We are probably seeing different changes....different distinctions.

What I see is that, in the New Covenant, the laws are internally driven - God's laws are written on our hearts not tablets of stone. The motivation comes from abiding in God. Jesus is our mediator of the New Covenant....and, as our High Priest, He graciously has taken away our sin (and the sin of the world). The Levitical High Priests only covered sin temporarily.

Another difference between the Old Covenant and New is that the priesthood was split in the Old Covenant. There was corruption within those that were representing God. The OC came up short because of the humanity that mediated it.

The Old Covenant was externally driven. People could appear to be holy.....but have hearts of stone internally.

Jesus said all the Law and the prophets hang on the two commands to love God and love others as ourselves.

BABerean2 said:
During the Old Covenant a man could be stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath day.

Colossians 2:16-17 reveals the change.

We've discussed this before. There was still earthly power in the corrupt ancient Jerusalem priesthood when the author of Hebrews was writing. The stoning of Stephen and marytrs of most of the Apostles demonstrates the corrupt power they still had. The time of the writing of the New Testament was a power struggle for the representation of God on earth between the Old Covenant priesthood and the apostles/early Church. That struggle ended - and the followers of Jesus won the struggle in 70 AD as those that represent Jesus on earth. The priesthood was taken from the Levites completely as Jesus had warned them it would be in the Parable of the Wicked Tenants.

That's a different narrative than the Law was made void. Jesus Himself said He didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it (but that isn't license to be legalistic or judgmental of others - we wouldn't be following His instruction to Love God/Love others, if we did that).

Hebrews 8 continues about the superior priesthood of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:1 ~ Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

See how the emphasis isn't on commandments? The emphasis, instead, is on who our High Priest is. That's the critical change. This emphasis also points out that Jesus serves as High Priest from the throne in Heaven (not on earth).....the True Sanctuary/Holy of Holies.

mkgal1 · Aug 20, 2020

Guojing said:
Try Acts 3:19-21 and 1 Peter 1:3-9

This actually helps support BABerean2's argument. Not all of Israel were Israel (there was a redefinition occurring in the shift from Old Covenant heirs to New Covenant heirs):

Acts 3:17-21 ~ 17And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

1Peter 1:3-9 ~
A Living Hope

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birthb into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in various trials 7so that the proven character of your faith—more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.8Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and though you do not see Him now, you believe in Him and rejoice with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9now that you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls

Studyman · Aug 20, 2020

mkgal1 said:
We are probably seeing different changes....different distinctions.

What I see is that, in the New Covenant, the laws are internally driven - God's laws are written on our hearts not tablets of stone. The motivation comes from abiding in God. Jesus is our mediator of the New Covenant....and, as our High Priest, He graciously has taken away our sin (and the sin of the world). The Levitical High Priests only covered sin temporarily.

Another difference between the Old Covenant and New is that the priesthood was split in the Old Covenant. There was corruption within those that were representing God. The OC came up short because of the humanity that mediated it.

The Old Covenant was externally driven. People could appear to be holy.....but have hearts of stone internally.

Jesus said all the Law and the prophets hang on the two commands to love God and love others as ourselves.

We've discussed this before. There was still earthly power in the corrupt ancient Jerusalem priesthood when the author of Hebrews was writing. The stoning of Stephen and marytrs of most of the Apostles demonstrates the corrupt power they still had. The time of the writing of the New Testament was a power struggle for the representation of God on earth between the Old Covenant priesthood and the apostles/early Church. That struggle ended - and the followers of Jesus won the struggle in 70 AD as those that represent Jesus on earth. The priesthood was taken from the Levites completely as Jesus had warned them it would be in the Parable of the Wicked Tenants.

That's a different narrative than the Law was made void. Jesus Himself said He didn't come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it (but that isn't license to be legalistic or judgmental of others - we wouldn't be following His instruction to Love God/Love others, if we did that).

Hebrews 8 continues about the superior priesthood of the New Covenant.

Hebrews 8:1 ~ Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

See how the emphasis isn't on commandments? The emphasis, instead, is on who our High Priest is. That's the critical change. This emphasis also points out that Jesus serves as High Priest from the throne in Heaven (not on earth).....the True Sanctuary/Holy of Holies.

Very good. I'm not sure about the 70 AD stuff though. It seems to me that Jesus became the High Priest when John the Baptist, a Levite Priest, turned the Priesthood over to Him.

Matt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I see that Jesus forgave sin without once ever sprinkling even one drop of animals blood on the alter, according to the Priesthood Law.

Food for thought. Great post

mkgal1 · Aug 20, 2020

Studyman said:
Very good. I'm not sure about the 70 AD stuff though. It seems to me that Jesus became the High Priest when John the Baptist, a Levite Priest, turned the Priesthood over to Him.

Matt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I see that Jesus forgave sin without once ever sprinkling even one drop of animals blood on the alter, according to the Priesthood Law.

Food for thought. Great post

Right....Jesus wasn't qualified under the Mosaic Law to serve as priest on earth as He wasn't from the tribe of Levites. He never sprinkled blood in the earthly Temple because His Holy of Holies is in heaven (earthly Jerusalem's Temple was a copy). He brought His own blood to the Mercy Seat in heaven.....He was the Passover Lamb.

Hebrews 8:5 ~ They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain".

I do agree with you that He was anointed High Priest (and king) at His baptism by John at the beginning of His ministry. But He wasn't seated on His throne serving as High Priest as of yet.....it was a progression (just as it was for King David....the priestly king before Jesus).

The office of High Priest....from what I'm seeing....wasn't fully taken over by Jesus immediately ( the former priests, IMO, still needed to be removed from the earthly copy of the True Temple)....just as Jesus had warned:

The Parable of the Wicked Tenants
(Matthew 21:33–46; Mark 12:1–12)

Matthew 21:42-45
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone.

This is from the Lord,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’k

43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.l”45When the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them.

mkgal1 · Aug 20, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Do we find only the Levites in the verse below?

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

The truth about God is revealed by all of His word, including the scripture which kills man-made doctrines.

The narrative you are promoting is not found in the Bible.

.

There are several covenants in the Old Testament. What you're referring to in quoting this passage is the Mosaic Covenant between God and the Israelites with Moses as the mediator. There was a separate covenant mentioned in Numbers 25....but the question is "how was this fulfilled?". How was there an "everlasting/permanent priesthood" within the Israelites, because Levites are no longer serving in an earthly Temple? As I see it....Christ fulfilled this everlasting covenant of peace:

Numbers 25
10Then the LORD said to Moses, 11“Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, has turned My wrath away from the Israelites; for he was zealous for My sake among them, so that I did not consume the Israelites in My zeal. 12Declare, therefore, that I am granting him My covenant of peace. 13It will be a covenant of permanent priesthood for him and his descendants, because he was zealous for his God and made atonement for the Israelites.”

Nehemiah also mentioned this covenant with the priesthood and the Levites:

Nehemiah 13 :29Remember them, O my God, because they have defiled the priesthood and the covenant of the priesthood and of the Levites.

There was both righteousness and corruption in the Levitical priesthood:

Malachi 2:8
But you priests have left God’s paths. Your instructions have caused many to stumble into sin. You have corrupted the covenant I made with the Levites,” says the LORD of Heaven’s Armies.

Studyman · Aug 20, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Right....Jesus wasn't qualified under the Mosaic Law to serve as priest on earth as He wasn't from the tribe of Levites. He never sprinkled blood in the earthly Temple because His Holy of Holies is in heaven (earthly Jerusalem's Temple was a copy). He brought His own blood to the Mercy Seat in heaven.....He was the Passover Lamb.

Hebrews 8:5 ~ They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain".

I do agree with you that He was anointed High Priest (and king) at His baptism by John at the beginning of His ministry. But He wasn't seated on His throne serving as High Priest as of yet.....it was a progression (just as it was for King David....the priestly king before Jesus).

The office of High Priest....from what I'm seeing....wasn't fully taken over by Jesus immediately ( the former priests, IMO, still needed to be removed from the earthly copy of the True Temple)....just as Jesus had warned:

The Parable of the Wicked Tenants
(Matthew 21:33–46; Mark 12:1–12)

Matthew 21:42-45
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone the builders rejected

has become the cornerstone.

This is from the Lord,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’k

43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.l”45When the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that Jesus was speaking about them.

Can't argue with any of that.

It is so refreshing to here another who understands the New Covenant the Christ of the Bible promised, and then brought.

mkgal1 · Aug 20, 2020

Something i found was interesting that I just noticed....look at this verse in Hebrews 7:

Hebrews 7:28 ~ For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever

Guojing · Aug 20, 2020

mkgal1 said:
This actually helps support BABerean2's argument. Not all of Israel were Israel (there was a redefinition occurring in the shift from Old Covenant heirs to New Covenant heirs):

Acts 3:17-21 ~ 17And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

1Peter 1:3-9 ~
A Living Hope

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birthb into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in various trials 7so that the proven character of your faith—more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.8Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and though you do not see Him now, you believe in Him and rejoice with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9now that you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls

Why are all of you still on that point about "not all Israel are Israel"?

I am no longer on that point. I am saying to Israel, their salvation comes in the future.

And please use the KJV instead of whatever translation you are currently using.

claninja · Aug 20, 2020

Guojing said:
I quoted Luke 9:6 to you already for the first question. Matthew 10:5-7 is another example of the 12 preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

Considering these verses don't record the exact words that the disciples preached when they went out proclaiming the gospel and that the kingdom was at hand, this is not proof that the disciples did not preach what is also found in 1 corinthians 15:1-4, during these events.

Guojing said:
For your 2nd question, there is a difference between preaching

In wickedness, you have killed your Messiah but God raised him from the dead as a sign that he is truly the Son of God, so repent of that wicked deed and be water baptized, and you will be saved from your sins in the future. (Acts 2:36 Acts 3:14-21 Acts 5:30 Acts 7:52 )

versus

Christ has died for your sins and rose again on the 3rd day for your justification. (1 Cor 15:1-4)

I disagree. Even demons believe Jesus is the son of God.

Matthew 8:28-29 He was met by two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.“What do You want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have You come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

Therefore, I would argue believing that Jesus is the son of God encompasses more than just believing His identity as the son of God.

Guojing said:
Israel did not have to believe that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, unlike us, because as Peter stated in Acts 3:19-21, their sins will only be forgiven/remitted in the future when Jesus come back for them again.

That simply not true. Peter no where mentions that Israel does not have to believe Jesus died on the cross for their sins in these verses. No where does peter mention their sin will only be forgiven in the future at the 2nd advent in these verses.

Acts 3:19-23 Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you. Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets. For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must listen to Him in everything He tells you.f Everyone who does not listen to Him will be completely cut off from among his people.g’

Guojing said:
I mean, if you are willing to understand scripture as it literally says without inserting Paul inside, John 20:31 is an obvious clue. Even after Christ rose from the dead, John did not tell Israel that their life comes from believing 1 Cor 15:1-4.

If your willing to understand that believing Jesus is the son of God entails believing in Jesus' deeds, his ministry, his good news, his death, his resurrection, his ascension to the right hand, his sending of the spirit, and his fulfillment of scripture, which all resulted in the forgiveness of sin and our reconciliation back to God, whether you are jew or gentile you'll be one step closer to seeing their is only one gospel.

Guojing said:
Instead he repeated the gospel of the kingdom, Israel needed to believe that he is the Son of God, that is where they may have life. Notice the term is "may have" and not they will have life now, unlike what Paul would tell us.

I agree Israel needed to believe Jesus is the son of God, just as we all do. But what does it mean for us to believe Jesus is the son of God?

Covenant and New Covenant theology

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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