Matthew 24, the divide

Douggg · Aug 17, 2020

Timtofly said:
The church is presented to God before the 7th seal is opened, and no one teaches or accepts that fact. The 1st trumpet cannot sound, until the 7th seal is opened. There is no more church on earth, at the first trumpet. No one accepts that.

What? The basis of the pre-trib rapture view is that the church is gone before the first trumpet.

Timtofly said:
The dead in Christ and the living in Christ are both in the temple of God, before the 7th seal. They all have been physically changed and in glorified bodies. That is why I say all are dead in this harvest. All on earth will die and be harvested.

They are not dead, their bodies will have been translated into everlasting bodies - there are no remains left on earth.

The remains of Christians who have died in the past will be resurrected and reconstituted into the same everlasting bodies. At the time of the rapture, translation of the living.

John never mentions Paul's resurrection scenario one time in the book of Revelation, why?

Because John himself prefigured the rapture when he was called up to heaven in Revelation 4:1. And the rapture is accompanied by the resurrection of the dead. But since John was only one person and not dead, he could only represent the rapture.

keras · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
I don't why you think that Zechariah 13:9 refutes anything I have written.

It proves that the Jews; at least the remnant of the Jews, will not become Christian until Jesus Returns.
Your belief of a Jewish conversion 3 1/2 years before the Return is wrong.

Douggg said:
70 AD ? You think the Mt of Olives has been split in half, part to the north and part to the south?

No; the splitting of the Mt of Olives will happen at the Return, but the Jews fleeing to the mountains does not fit that event. Anyway why do the flee when their Messiah comes?

Douggg · Aug 17, 2020

keras said:
It proves that the Jews; at least the remnant of the Jews, will not become Christian until Jesus Returns.
Your belief of a Jewish conversion 3 1/2 years before the Return is wrong.

I don't know what your thought-for-thought REB has for that verse, but in KJV it does not indicate at all that they don't become Christians until Jesus Returns.

keras said:
No; the splitting of the Mt of Olives will happen at the Return, but the Jews fleeing to the mountains does not fit that event. Anyway why do the flee when their Messiah comes?

Somewhere this discussion got twisted around. The message to the Jews to flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place is over three and half years before the Zechariah 14 event of the Mt. of Olives splitting in half.

The Jews don't flee when their perceived messiah comes. He is anointed the King of Israel, and the Jews will think they have entered the messianic age of peace and safety.

Here is my chart. Just follow down through it. I show the Jews fleeing.

keras · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
What? The basis of the pre-trib rapture view is that the church is gone before the first trumpet.
They are not dead, their bodies will have been translated into everlasting bodies - there are no remains left on earth.

The remains of Christians who have died in the past will be resurrected and reconstituted into the same everlasting bodies. At the time of the rapture, translation of the living.

Because John himself prefigured the rapture when he was called up to heaven in Revelation 4:1. And the rapture is accompanied by the resurrection of the dead. But since John was only one person and not dead, he could only represent the rapture.

All these beliefs are seriously bad examples of false and unbiblical teachings.
In the Bible;
There is no 'rapture' to heaven of the Church.
There is no everlasting bodies. Only after the Millennium do those worthy receive spiritual immortality.
There is no resurrection, excepting for the Trib martyrs. Rev 20:4
John visited heaven, for the purpose of receiving the Vision of Revelation. He prefigured or represented nothing by that.

Why do you continue to post wild speculations and unbiblical fantasies? 2 Peter 2:1-3

keras · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
I don't know what your thought-for-thought REB has for that verse, but in KJV it does not indicate at all that they don't become Christian until Jesus Returns.

All the Bibles say...They shall look upon Me whom they pierced and they shall mourn.....Zechariah 12:10
Obviously Jesus has Returned for them to look upon Him.
Your belief of their conversion before then, is gross error.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2020

keras said:
All these beliefs are seriously bad examples of false and unbiblical teachings.
In the Bible;
There is no 'rapture' to heaven of the Church.
There is no everlasting bodies. Only after the Millennium do those worthy receive spiritual immortality.
There is no resurrection, excepting for the Trib martyrs. Rev 20:4
John visited heaven, for the purpose of receiving the Vision of Revelation. He prefigured or represented nothing by that.

Why do you continue to post wild speculations and unbiblical fantasies? 2 Peter 2:1-3

The two witnesses are in Israel when they are killed and come back to life. Please, copy and paste Revelation 11:11-12 from your REB bible.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

BABerean2 · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
You are copying and pasting commentary in that bible of them who held covenant theology. But you are not stating it is commentary.

I thought that fact was obvious.

Most of your posts, and charts, contain commentary from you.

.

Running2win · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
Matthew 24:15-31 is about what the Jews will go through, the great tribulation. The warning for them in Judaea to flee into the mountains (for divine protection implied) is for them, when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Not the church.

Matthew 24:32-51 is for the church. To be aware of the times and be watching for the rapture in order not to have to go through the great tribulation. Which is why we are talking about the parable of the fig tree, verse 32, and the Jews are not.

Wow Doug! Two posts on Sunday! You eat too much fried chicken after Church?

Timtofly · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
What? The basis of the pre-trib rapture view is that the church is gone before the first trumpet.
They are not dead, their bodies will have been translated into everlasting bodies - there are no remains left on earth.

The remains of Christians who have died in the past will be resurrected and reconstituted into the same everlasting bodies. At the time of the rapture, translation of the living.

Because John himself prefigured the rapture when he was called up to heaven in Revelation 4:1. And the rapture is accompanied by the resurrection of the dead. But since John was only one person and not dead, he could only represent the rapture.

No, the reason is because Revelation is written as the book of God’s judgment on a sinful world and the end of sin and death.

Paul wrote about it as the hope of the believer.

Part of Revelation was never even given to us. Those on earth would be told by God at the proper time. Revelation is a blueprint, but we are running out of time.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2020

BABerean2 said:
I thought that fact was obvious.

Most of your posts, and charts, contain commentary from you.

.

The difference is that I am not presenting my commentary as being the KJV bible.

You are presenting the commentary as being part of God's word of the Geneva bible. You should do it differently and say something starting off like.... "In the commentary footnotes of the Geneva bible brought over by the Pilgrims.....". And also say that the commentators held the Covenant Theology approach to understanding the bible.

Below my screen-name to the left - I let everyone know that I hold the futurist, non-denominational, anytime rapture point of view. I think you should update your screen-name information from "newbie" to "New Covenant theology" at the very least. You have 17,000 posts. You are not a "newbie".

BABerean2 · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
The difference is that I am not presenting my commentary as being the KJV bible.

You are presenting the commentary as being part of God's word of the Geneva bible. You should do it differently and say something starting off like.... "In the commentary footnotes of the Geneva bible brought over by the Pilgrims.....". And also say that the commentators held the Covenant Theology approach to understanding the bible.

Below my screen-name to the left - I let everyone know that I hold the futurist, non-denominational, anytime rapture point of view. I think you should update your screen-name information from "newbie" to "New Covenant theology" at the very least. You have 17,000 posts.

If you will do the same thing on all of your charts, I will gladly follow your example.

.

keras · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
The two witnesses are in Israel when they are killed and come back to life

They are a special case. You cannot build the 'rapture' doctrine on them.

The Two Witnesses preach for the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation, the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. They will be killed 3 day prior to His Return and when He arrives, He will resurrect them and call them up to where He is, along with all the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4, and all the living surviving faithful Christians. 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:30-31
They will all be with Him, in Jerusalem for the Millennium.

Not too much time left now. You and all who have ideas that are not supported by scripture, should seriously reconsider your beliefs about God's plans for His people.

Paul4JC · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
As far as Matthew 24:32-51 the purpose is to escape having to go through the great tribulation. In broader terms - the rapture/resurrection is the completion of Christians Salvation.

I would not call it escape. I turned from pre-trip rapture for many years because of this term. Now seeing it more as Christ coming for his own, his bride, it makes more sense. It is the culmination of the Church age. If it is God's sovereign plan, so be it.

[Jhn 14:3 NIV] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2020

Paul4JC said:
I would not call it escape. I turned from pre-trip rapture for many years because of this term. Now seeing it more as Christ coming for his own, his bride, it makes more sense. It is the culmination of the Church age. If it is God's sovereign plan, so be it.

[Jhn 14:3 NIV] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Hi Paul4JC, I was taking from Luke 21:34-36...verse 36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Paul4JC · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
Hi Paul4JC, I was taking from Luke 21:34-36...verse 36.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Thanks for clarifying. It's not that verse I was thinking of but just the attitude of escapism....

"Must I be carried to the skies
On flowery beds of ease,
While others fought to win the prize
And sailed through bloody seas?

One of the Lord's few prayer requests. Yes Lord make us worthy to escape. In Jesus name, Amen.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2020

keras said:
They are a special case. You cannot build the 'rapture' doctrine on them.

Evidence that you are wrong. You are unwilling to accept though.

Now your coverup.....

"The Two Witnesses preach for the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation, the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. They will be killed 3 day prior to His Return and when He arrives, He will resurrect them and call them up to where He is, along with all the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4, and all the living surviving faithful Christians. 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:30-31 They will all be with Him, in Jerusalem for the Millennium."

.....Keras, the two witnesses preach for the 1260 days of the first half of the seven years. People exchange presents over their deaths and celebrate. It is not 3 days prior to Jesus's Return. The armies of the world are preparing for battle against Jesus at that time. No-one is going to be having holiday season at that time.

Timtofly · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
Evidence that you are wrong. You are unwilling to accept though.

Now your coverup.....

"The Two Witnesses preach for the 1260 days of the Great Tribulation, the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. They will be killed 3 day prior to His Return and when He arrives, He will resurrect them and call them up to where He is, along with all the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4, and all the living surviving faithful Christians. 1 Thess 4:17, Matthew 24:30-31 They will all be with Him, in Jerusalem for the Millennium."

.....Keras, the two witnesses preach for the 1260 days of the first half of the seven years. People exchange presents over their deaths and celibate. It is not 3 days prior to Jesus's Return. The armies of the world are preparing for battle against Jesus at that time. No-one is going to having holiday season at that time.

How can you separate the only mentioned 3.5 years in Revelation? There is less than 3 years, before the Second Coming is celebrated. The Lamb is doing the harvest prior to Satan's 3.5 years. The 2 witnesses have not started their witness. The 144K have not even been sealed yet. The ministry of the 144K is done and over, when the 2 witnesses begin.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2020

Timtofly said:
How can you separate the only mentioned 3.5 years in Revelation? There is less than 3 years, before the Second Coming is celebrated. The Lamb is doing the harvest prior to Satan's 3.5 years. The 2 witnesses have not started their witness, the 144K have not even been sealed yet. The ministry of the 144K is done and over, when the 2 witnesses begin.

Timtofly, the term "3.5 years or 3 1/2 years" is not used in the bible. Using those terms is just a common practice people do for discussion sake. The actual terms are 1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 days, time/times/half time.

The time frames in Revelation are given after John eats the little book in Revelation 10.

The thing to do is break the 7 years into two halves. The first half and the second half. And then place the timeframes in which half they should belong.

first half
1260 days Revelation 11:3, Revelation 12:6

second half
3 1/2 days - Revelation 11:11
42 months - Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5
time/times/half time - Revelation 12:14, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7

Douggg · Aug 17, 2020

BABerean2 said:
If you will do the same thing on all of your charts, I will gladly follow your example.

.

I don't say my charts are the KJV bible. They are charts, not a bible. No one else's charts are a bible either.

Running2win · Aug 17, 2020

Douggg said:
I don't say my charts are the KJV bible. They are charts, not a bible.

Thou don'test Dougless? Pray tell, why notest?

Matthew 24, the divide

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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