Matthew 24, the divide

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:15-31 is about what the Jews will go through, the great tribulation. .

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I will slightly correct your statement:
It is about what Jews went through, during the great tribulation.

solid_core said:

I will slightly correct your statement:
It is about what Jews went through, during the great tribulation.

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More correction: It is what the Jews went thru, in the first century.

Douggg said:

To be aware of the times and be watching for the rapture in order not to have to go through the great tribulation.

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Your whole OP is an unbiblical speculation, there is no 'rapture removal of the Church', or a general Jewish redemption in the GT to be found anywhere in the Bible.
That is why, of course, you fail to support your pronouncements with scripture.

keras said:

More correction: It is what the Jews went thru, in the first century.

Your whole OP is an unbiblical speculation, there is no 'rapture removal of the Church', or a general Jewish redemption in the GT to be found anywhere in the Bible.
That is why, of course, you fail to support your pronouncements with scripture.

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It also does not make any sense to believe that "being aware of the times and watching for the rapture" is what makes you being included in the rapture.

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:15-31 is about what the Jews will go through, the great tribulation. The warning for them in Judaea to flee into the mountains (for divine protection implied) is for them, when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Not the church.

Matthew 24:32-51 is for the church. To be aware of the times and be watching for the rapture in order not to have to go through the great tribulation. Which is why we are talking about the parable of the fig tree, verse 32, and the Jews are not.

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Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)

Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)



Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　



Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution

Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)


Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)


Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　(See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　


Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　


Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)

The Coming of the Son of Man


Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


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Douggg said:

Matthew 24:15-31 is about what the Jews will go through, the great tribulation. The warning for them in Judaea to flee into the mountains (for divine protection implied) is for them, when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Not the church.

Matthew 24:32-51 is for the church. To be aware of the times and be watching for the rapture in order not to have to go through the great tribulation. Which is why we are talking about the parable of the fig tree, verse 32, and the Jews are not.

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Douggg we are all gonna be effected in one way or another. We just have to put up with it.
Your right about the jews but look at your own country at the moment , its RS dude and its going down big time .
Get ready for war.

Douggg said:

I was referring to the great tribulation.

The Jews in Judaea will go through it, but will be divinely protected if they flee to the mountains. Matthew 15-31.

Christians will escape having to go through the great tribulation, via the rapture. The message is to the parable of the fig tee generation when the rapture will happen is to be watching; that is, expecting it, and living as Christians accordingly. Matthew 15:32-51.

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Wrong Jews. Wrong Judaea. Matthew 24 is speaking about the great tribulation for the NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL, the church prior to Second Coming. It is not speaking about people in the middle east! Spiritual discerned. Wise virgins who can see and understand v.s foolish virgins, as explained in Matthew 25, who cannot see because of carnal mind!

Selah.

Douggg said:

I was referring to the great tribulation.

The Jews in Judaea will go through it, but will be divinely protected if they flee to the mountains. Matthew 15-31.

Christians will escape having to go through the great tribulation, via the rapture. The message is to the parable of the fig tee generation when the rapture will happen is to be watching; that is, expecting it, and living as Christians accordingly. Matthew 15:32-51.

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If Jews listen to Jesus in the New Testament, they are Christians, right? So why do you separate them from Christians?

Douggg said:

I don't. I am referring to the majority of the Jews.

Jews by birth who believe in Jesus are Christians. And they would be reading Matthew 24:32-51, the message to Christians.

Jews, who have rejected Jesus, up to the time of the rapture, are the one who will have to go through the great tribulation, and the message to them in Judaea is flee into the mountains.

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Why do you think unbelieving Jews act according to the words of Jesus?

Douggg said:

Those Jews will become Christians when their perceived messiah betrays them and the Mt. Sinai covenant when he goes into the temple claims to be God. A short time afterward, after he is killed and brought back to life as the beast, the statue image will be made of him, the abomination of desolation and placed on the temple mount grounds. That is when they will flee to the mountains for divine protection.

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Sounds complicated. Is there any simpler eschatology, out there?

Douggg said:

I answered your question with one paragraph, three sentences.

You did not comprehend it - that it was that complicated?

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For example, what is rapture good for, in your system?

Douggg said:

What you are calling "spiritual discerned" is spiritual twisting. Judaea is in Israel.

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Sorry, Dude. Judaea, in the New Testament, a New Covenant synonym for the congregation. She is the CHURCH!

Judaea "is" the church in the New Testament! As scripture defines it. Judaea is God's representation of the Church, where the abomination of desolation standing in the "HOLY PLACE" where it ought not. The only holy place on this side of the Cross is the Church. Scripture said so! Jersualem and her temple mount was no longer holy since the veil of the temple rent in half! And it was never holy ever since, even 70AD!

Of course, because of the traditions of men, you takes that truth and attempts to circumvent it with a bankrupt rationale designed to circumvent the actual text of the Bible commanding people to depart Judaea. It is your attempt to depart from a rational reading and understanding of the clear text of scripture. And it is something which the Church should be wary of.

Colossians 2:8

• "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

That word translated spoil means sophistry. Literally, to be taken away or led away through humanistic philosophies, the subtly fallacious reasoning or arguments. And I'm sorry to say, that was exactly what was being done. Your reasoning that the word doesn't say depart Judaea doesn't even make sense to you, and you are taking the exact opposite position of Judaea. And the reason it doesn't make sense is because it's irrational to say that, considering the text!

This verse 19 of Luke 21 is talking about the unsaved, not the elect. It's woe to them, not to those whom God is warning to flee "BECAUSE" of the abominations of their hands. That would make no sense!

Matthew 24:15-16

• "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
• Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Obviously God is speaking of two things. The abominations in the church, and the election who "SEE" it and are to flee from the unfaithful congregation. There is no ifs, ands or buts about it, God is talking about the abominations of the unsaved in that congregation (spiritually Judaea), and declaring that the elect should flee from it when the "SEE" it. There is no fragmentation in speaking of both.

Sorry, Dude. The modern nation of Israel is not holy. Their city Jerusalem is not holy. It is the New Testament Congregation of Israel, the church "IS" the holy place where Christ is its chief cornerstone. Didn't you read the Scripture?

Matthew 21:42-44 KJV
[42] Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
[43] Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
[44] And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Ephesians 2:19-22 KJV
[19] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[20] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[21] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[22] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Where do you find Jesus Christ, the chief cornerstone, at? In the land of the Middle East? Or in the church, the foundation of the apostles and prophets? This is the holy place! Judaea "is" the woman! She is the congregation of God where Christ is a chief cornerstone. But Christ warned that during the great tribulation, she has BECOME A harlot, where the abomination of desolation standing in. That is why God told His people (Elect) to come out of her to avoid her plagues (judgment).

But no, you can't see it. Because you are looking at wrong place. You are still thinking "Judaea" is in the Middle East with your silly church tradition using Newspaper Eschatology all about Israel, Jerusalem, antichrist, European Union, Islam, seven years peace treaty, and pre-tribulation rapture. You are currently deceived with your false doctrine which represents the MAJORITY of the church. They cannot see the abomntiaonn of desolation for what it is! That is why Jesus warned, "whoso readeth, let him understand" Only a few people of the congregation, the Elect, will understand and "see it" while the rest are being deceived by their prophets and teachers who insisted that the prophecies are being fulfilling over there in the Middle East while ignore the spiritual condition of their churches. Selah!

Mat 24:25, " Behold, I have told you before."