He is the way
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I will declare what the Bible says again:
(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
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LDS The Futile Attempt by Mormons to Earn God's Grace
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(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Ran77
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This means that God chooses not to save some sinners. According to your statements, the person has no part of the process, placing it %100 in the hands of the Lord. People will suffer through eternity because He chooses to let them.
Why would God not want all of His children to be happy and live with Him? More importantly, why would God be alright with choosing to put some people in Hell to burn in horrible agony forever?
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Mormons teach that grace depends on a person's efforts to do the required works. Do you not believe what your church teaches?
BOOK OF MORMON, 2 Nephi 25
23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
BIBLE, Romans 11
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
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You quote the Bible, but you fail to prove that grace is a reward dependent on your works as the Book of Mormon states in 2 Nephi 25.
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Peter1000
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The gospel message is full of get yourself worthy doctrines. If you will do this.... I will do this.....
It is engrained in our whole mind and body. I challenge you to read the NT again and every time you read that if you do this, I will do this (or an equivelant statement) then mark it down and count how many times God expects you to get worthy before you receive from Him.
If you pay your tithing, I will open the windows of heaven.....
If you forgive, I will forgive.
If you do not forgive, I will not forgive.
If you love me, I will give you....
If you do what I say and keep the milk of the gospel, I will give you the meat of the gospel.
If you pray, I will answer.
If you ask, I will give it unto you.
If you believe in me, I will give you....
From the minute you believe you are worthy to receive more, and you will. If you never reach the point that you can believe in Christ, you will not be worthy to receive his blessing.
If you...., I will.... is a prominent piece of the gospel covenant.
Yes, God is the whom he will bless, but he certainly is not going to bless one that disobeys him and laughs about having to be worthy.
Don't you see how this works real well for satan? I can't get myself worthy, only God decides who is worthy of a blessing, so I don't even have to try to do what God has before ordained for me to do. It is unnecessary for me to try, I can do anything I want, and if God decides to bless me, so be it.
Then if God does not bless you with things you think you are in need of, then a person has a tendancy to reject the whole gospel and turn to alternative gospels to get what they think they need.
I can see the other side too, and satan can work this angle as well. If I think I am worthy of a blessing that I think I need, and the blessing does not come as I think it should, I could also turn against God and look for alternative gospels to get what I think I am worthy of.
So we must journey in our lives with much faith that God knows what we need and that we can be close enough to him to receive his blessings.
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That's Mormonism in a bucket full of cherry picked verses taken out of context.
Mormonism: EVERY blessing has to be earned.
May God forgive me for taking so long to leave the church that I knew was false!
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He is the way
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Yes we know that grace is a gift, but we also know who is given grace and who has NO promise. Grace is promised to those who obey and keep the commandments. Those who don't have NO promise:
(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:17 - 19)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
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He is the way
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Did I fail or did you fail to understand what the Bible said?
(New Testament | Matthew 7:21)
21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(New Testament | Ephesians 2:10)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
(New Testament | Colossians 1:10)
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
(New Testament | 1 Thessalonians 1:3 - 4)
3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
(New Testament | 2 Thessalonians 2:16 - 17)
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
(New Testament | 2 Thessalonians 3:10 - 13)
10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
(New Testament | James 2:20)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
These are just a few of the many scriptures regarding all that we can do.
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He is the way
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(New Testament | Mark 12:41 - 43)
41 ¶ And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
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Ran77
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I would love to discuss the beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints without the use of cherry-picked verses. Let's start with a verse, or a couple of verses, or even a single chapter and discuss them. I will stay within the context of the chapter being discussed and our critics will be expected to do the same.
What an exciting challenge.
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You quote the Bible, but you fail to prove that grace is a reward dependent on your works as the Book of Mormon states in 2 Nephi 25.
You quoted:
James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
God gives the gift of living faith.
Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
1 Peter 2:12
Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
LOOK:
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
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He is the way
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There are two kinds of works. The first kind of work is described in these verses:
(New Testament | James 1:25 - 27)
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Who is doing this work, God or man? It is we ourselves that choose to do these things. Now there is also a work that God does:
(New Testament | John 12:37)
37 ¶ But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
(New Testament | John 14:10 - 15)
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
These are the works done by God. We can not do miracles, God does them. We can not save ourselves either, we are saved by the proxy atonement of Jesus Christ, otherwise there is NO salvation. It is also been made clear that salvation is for the obedient and NOT the unrighteous. I have posted these scriptures many times. It is also important to note here that few people are being saved:
(New Testament | Matthew 7:12 - 14)
12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
These truths are important and are clearly manifested in the Bible. He that has an ear let him hear.
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God makes the decision and promises "all blessings in heavenly places to those He is sanctifying." Those who were dead in sins couldn't please Him. They couldn't bring glory to His Name.
Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship,
We don't make ourselves new creatures! He tells us : That is the work of God, "that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."
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Peter1000
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You, I am sure will note that this scripture says, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus". This is such a focus point, you miss completely the qualifier, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"
This same scripture I am sure you focus on this phrase, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us. And you miss completely the qualifier, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit".
Again, the focus: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit". And you again miss the qualifier, "if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you".
So in order to have no condemnation be upon us, and the righteousness of Jesus be inputed on us, we must not walk in the flesh. If you do, and we do not repent, we will be condemned and we will not be righteous, even if we believe.
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Peter1000
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So those who are dead in sins, did God decide to make them dead in sins so they could not please him? So they could not glorify him? Does God decide who is dead to sins, and who is not dead to sins? Who he sanctifies, and who he does not sanctify?
Wow you are so against good works, that you actually gave us just part of vs 10 because you are ashamed of the other part. Too bad. Don't ever talk to me about manipulating or twisting the scriptures.
You have to qualify yourself for grace, in 2 ways.
1) you have to believe in Jesus.
2) you have to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
And according to Peter on the day of Pentacost, you cannot receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until after you are baprized in water. So I will add 3 more qualifiers to the above 2.
3) you must have faith in Jesus.
4) you must repent and get yourself cleansed for baptism.
5) you must be baptized for the remission of sins
So this is the process of getting your new person in Jesus.
When you come up out of the waters of baptism and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, you will find yourself to be a new person, ready to to what good works Jesus had before ordained for to do (Ephesians 2:10).
So yes God is pouring down his Holy Spirit and helping you to qualify to receive your new person. But it takes actions on both you and God to achieve it.
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God did not make people fallen. Obedience to Satan by Adam caused the fall. Why do you think God said we have to be born again (delivered from the power of Satan)?
You have (after all these years) known by reading my posts that Christians glorify God and walk in the Light because we have been delivered from Satan's power and many times I've said "We love
Him because He first loved us!
You tell me " Don't ever talk to me about manipulating or twisting the scriptures." Then you accuse me of being against good works!
MORMONISM:
Man can't qualify himself for God's blessings because we are under Satan's power until He delivers us. Then we love Him because He first loved us.
Why did Mormon missionaries baptize my mother, sister, and 8-year-old brother who didn't believe Mormonism? They never had the Holy Ghost before or after! They never read the Book of Mormon before or after baptism. So the missionary who baptized them apparently had a record of good deeds.
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He is the way
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You said: "We don't make ourselves new creatures!"
We become new creatures through baptism:
(New Testament | Romans 6:3 - 11)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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He is the way
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We LOVE Jesus Christ by keeping the commandments:God did not make people fallen. Obedience to Satan by Adam caused the fall. Why do you think God said we have to be born again (delivered from the power of Satan)?
View attachment 280318
You have (after all these years) known by reading my posts that Christians glorify God and walk in the Light because we have been delivered from Satan's power and many times I've said "We love
Him because He first loved us!
You tell me " Don't ever talk to me about manipulating or twisting the scriptures." Then you accuse me of being against good works!
MORMONISM:
Man can't qualify himself for God's blessings because we are under Satan's power until He delivers us. Then we love Him because He first loved us.
Why did Mormon missionaries baptize my mother, sister, and 8-year-old brother who didn't believe Mormonism? They never had the Holy Ghost before or after! They never read the Book of Mormon before or after baptism. So the missionary who baptized them apparently had a record of good deeds.
(New Testament | John 14:15)
15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
(New Testament | 1 John 5:1 - 3)
1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
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