The only way to say a thing

rusmeister · Jun 25, 2020

When censorship abounds, it can become almost impossible to say anything.
Still, Phil. 4:8-9...
My wife and son and I are reading “Perelandra” together. The Un-Man is one who has given himself over wholly to evil in the name of his ideology. They are great books; Lewis was far more Orthodox than many modern people who are members of .orthodox churches.

A helpful page, to avoid excessive obscurity... Un-Man's Tales: C.S. Lewis's , Fairy Tales, and Feminism - CJS Hayward

manga_page_test_perelandra_c__by_kittycowlexa-d31y5dg.jpg

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Jun 25, 2020

Wouldn't it be better to promote the writings of The Holy Church Fathers and Orthodox writers instead of a Heterodox writer ?

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gzt · Jun 25, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
Wouldn't it be better to promote the writings of The Holy Church Fathers and Orthodox writers instead of a Heterodox writer ?
.

Lewis good.

Not David · Jun 25, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
Wouldn't it be better to promote the writings of The Holy Church Fathers and Orthodox writers instead of a Heterodox writer ?

.

What's wrong with CS Lewis?

ArmyMatt · Jun 25, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
Wouldn't it be better to promote the writings of The Holy Church Fathers and Orthodox writers instead of a Heterodox writer ?

.

if that were the case, the Cappadocians or St Justin Martyr would not have written about how to read pagan philosophy, the 5th Ecumenical Council would not have been the good stuff found in non-Chalcedonian attempts at apologetics against us, Fr Seraphim Rose wouldn't have insisted on modern folks reading Dickens and Shakespeare, etc.

rusmeister · Jun 25, 2020

gzt said:
Lewis good.

Look! We have something in common!

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Jun 25, 2020

I guess that I'm in the minority on this then ....

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Jun 25, 2020

Not David said:
What's wrong with CS Lewis?

CS Lewis is Heterodox.

I still think that you're a great poster though rusmeister.

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Pavel Mosko · Jun 25, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
Wouldn't it be better to promote the writings of The Holy Church Fathers and Orthodox writers instead of a Heterodox writer ?

.

Um for the record I've seen various C.S. Lewis books on sale, at the book store of Concilliar Press (the actual brick and mortar store) And I'm guessing that is not usual, they are generally regarded as Contemporary Christian Classics.

Conciliar Press Products - Ancient Faith Store

And by the way if you really apply that kind of logic to some works of the past, like those of Saint Isaac the Syrian, that would preclude them from being read by Orthodox etc. him being in the Assyrian Church of the East when he wrote them.

ArmyMatt · Jun 25, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
CS Lewis is Heterodox

Origen and Severus of Antioch are both heretics, yet we use the good in their writings all the time.

walking.away.123 · Jun 25, 2020

Not David said:
What's wrong with CS Lewis?

Just short of a universalist, because eternity is really long. He never left room for scepticisms, but he seemed to be hopeful all would be saved. Even Napoleon, as Hitler wasn't the ultimate evil yet.

rusmeister · Jun 25, 2020

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:
CS Lewis is Heterodox.

I still think that you're a great poster though rusmeister.

.

Thank you!
And yes, certainly, Lewis was heterodox, as was Chesterton, and all of my favorite writers.

There are two things I would say there, though. One is that it would be just silly to dismiss a writer if he says "Jesus Christ is the Son of God", heterodox or not. In that moment, he is speaking the Truth. Dismissing heterodox writers who speak Orthodox truth as non-Orthodox makes zero sense. What I think you are RIGHT about is that we should be super-clear on where such writers go wrong, where they become heterodox and do not speak Orthodox Truth. I'm totally ready to deal with what is wrong with my favorite writers. I can criticize Chesterton, and that is something that a wise man ought to fear to do. But these guys really were wrong about something huge - where is the Church of Jesus Christ?

The other is, they keep me in the Orthodox Church when Orthodox writers don't do it for me. What can one say to that? It is non-Orthodox apologetics that have kept me firmly in place, when complete despair in the face of the apostasy I find IN the Church would have led me to leave the Church as not really being the Church of Christ. They force me to look around, and realize that there is nowhere else to go. (John 6:68)

That said, something was said in "Perelandra" that seems really relevant to me now. I'd prefer to be in the wrong.

ArmyMatt · Jun 25, 2020

ShiFuBill said:
Just short of a universalist, because eternity is really long. He never left room for scepticisms, but he seemed to be hopeful all would be saved. Even Napoleon, as Hitler wasn't the ultimate evil yet.

I don't think he was just short of being a universalist, especially if you read The Last Battle.

Not David · Jun 25, 2020

rusmeister said:
Thank you!
And yes, certainly, Lewis was heterodox, as was Chesterton, and all of my favorite writers.

There are two things I would say there, though. One is that it would be just silly to dismiss a writer if he says "Jesus Christ is the Son of God", heterodox or not. In that moment, he is speaking the Truth. Dismissing heterodox writers who speak Orthodox truth as non-Orthodox makes zero sense. What I think you are RIGHT about is that we should be super-clear on where such writers go wrong, where they become heterodox and do not speak Orthodox Truth. I'm totally ready to deal with what is wrong with my favorite writers. I can criticize Chesterton, and that is something that a wise man ought to fear to do. But these guys really were wrong about something huge - where is the Church of Jesus Christ?

The other is, they keep me in the Orthodox Church when Orthodox writers don't do it for me. What can one say to that? It is non-Orthodox apologetics that have kept me firmly in place, when complete despair in the face of the apostasy I find IN the Church would have led me to leave the Church as not really being the Church of Christ. They force me to look around, and realize that there is nowhere else to go. (John 6:68)

That said, something was said in "Perelandra" that seems really relevant to me now. I'd prefer to be in the wrong.

Yes, a wise man can read stuff from intelligent men and discern what is good and what is not.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Jun 25, 2020

rusmeister said:
Thank you!
And yes, certainly, Lewis was heterodox, as was Chesterton, and all of my favorite writers.

There are two things I would say there, though. One is that it would be just silly to dismiss a writer if he says "Jesus Christ is the Son of God", heterodox or not. In that moment, he is speaking the Truth. Dismissing heterodox writers who speak Orthodox truth as non-Orthodox makes zero sense. What I think you are RIGHT about is that we should be super-clear on where such writers go wrong, where they become heterodox and do not speak Orthodox Truth. I'm totally ready to deal with what is wrong with my favorite writers. I can criticize Chesterton, and that is something that a wise man ought to fear to do. But these guys really were wrong about something huge - where is the Church of Jesus Christ?

The other is, they keep me in the Orthodox Church when Orthodox writers don't do it for me. What can one say to that? It is non-Orthodox apologetics that have kept me firmly in place, when complete despair in the face of the apostasy I find IN the Church would have led me to leave the Church as not really being the Church of Christ. They force me to look around, and realize that there is nowhere else to go. (John 6:68)

That said, something was said in "Perelandra" that seems really relevant to me now. I'd prefer to be in the wrong.

I actually just got done reading an Orthodox book that specifically deals with Evangelical Heresies called : "The Church, Tradition, Scripture, Truth, And Christian Life: Some Heresies of Evangelicalism and an Orthodox Response" by : Hierodeacon Gregory

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Radagast · Jun 25, 2020

Pavel Mosko said:
Um for the record I've seen various C.S. Lewis books on sale, at the book store of Concilliar Press (the actual brick and mortar store)

And in this Orthodox bookstore: Eighth Day Books

Lukaris · Jun 25, 2020

C.S.Lewis ( I think) is an example of the Holy Spirit working among other Christians. This, I believe, is something to rejoice, be thankful for & evidence that our prayers for own salvation & that of others are most important.

The Abolition of Man by Lewis was considered recommended reading by the late Fr Thomas Hopko of the OCA.

rusmeister · Jun 26, 2020

Lukaris said:
C.S.Lewis ( I think) is an example of the Holy Spirit working among other Christians. This, I believe, is something to rejoice, be thankful for & evidence that our prayers for own salvation & that of others are most important.

The Abolition of Man by Lewis was considered recommended reading by the late Fr Thomas Hopko of the OCA.

What made Fr Tom’s recommendation more remarkable is that he specifically avoided giving recommendations in general, and said so. He’s right on “The Abolition of Man” (and “That Hideous Strength” is a dictional layout of what it means, and mirrors what is in fact happening in our world today). Together with Gatto’s “Underground History” and my own experience in education, public and private, I have a fairly complete puzzle picture of what education has done. Tying that in with the reason for the OP, it is how we ourselves, with our educations rotten to the core, bring the mind of the world into the Church with us, and mistake it for the mind of the Church. That’s how the intellectual ideas, if they can be called that, creep in and seduce the faithful, as the Un-Man seduced the Lady in the novel.

The only solution is to submit all of our own ideas up to, and accept correction from, what has been established and taught in all places and times, the consensus of the fathers. We must admit that the Church us wiser than we. But we have been taught to see so many things wrongly, and sin also encourages us to think that “MY ideas are good and right, because they are kind, they are loving, etc” and the idea that the teachings are too hard, or outdated, or harsh, applicable only to a few people - “They may be fine for others, but economia for me, please!”. We remain under attack in the Church, and humility and obedience tend to go to the bottom, and our sense that our activism against certain evils (that naturally, we ourselves don’t commit) does good for others is so often blind to the ways we ourselves go off the rails.

And so, things like sexual anarchy and schism continue to make headway in the Church.

walking.away.123 · Jun 26, 2020

rusmeister said:
I'd prefer to be in the wrong.

Who would not rather be wrong with Lewis than to be right with anyone else?
Met. Kallistos quoted some writer saying that of Origen. There's a lot wrong there, but it sounds good.

ArmyMatt said:
I don't think he was just short of being a universalist, especially if you read The Last Battle.

Yes, and I've also read the Great Divorce. I think the, if I remember, dwarves, and anyone else not traveling, metaphorically, with Aslan would have been in the grey land with the possibility of leaving. He left open the possibility that some would never enter heaven, and literarily made post-life George MacDonald skeptical of Universalism. He seemed in about the same place as Met. Kallistos:
https://www.clarion-journal.com/files/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all-1.pdf
though Lewis didn't elaborate as fully. As I said, Lewis was short of Universalism.

ArmyMatt · Jun 26, 2020

he also made it clear that there were some who would never enter heaven like Shift.

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