The pre-tribulation rapture lie [moved]

Matt Torres

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I was explaining to you that you have to look beyond 1Thessalonians4:16-18 to determine when the rapture will take place.

From a combination of 1Thessalonians5:1-3 about the beginning of the Day of Lord when God's wrath will be poured out. And 2Thessalonians2:1-4, the Day of Lord not beginning until the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act*.... the Rapture could take place anytime between right this second and that act by the Antichrist, some time in the middle part of the 70th week.

*Do you know the difference between the transgression of desolation act and the abomination of desolation thing ?

Before we talk about the transgression and abomination... let’s first agree or disagree on this one simple truth. In 1Th4:16-17 does the Bible not say when Jesus comes down those who are left on the earth and are born again followers of Jesus get take to meet him? I don’t understand why you are making this so complicated.
 
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Matt Torres

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“When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all his angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. The people of every nation will be gathered in front of him. He will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right but the goats on his left. (Matthew 25:31-33)

You can read the whole book of revelation if you need more evidence.

The rapture will happen first so that those who love Jesus will be taken into Heavens so they do not have to experience it, and the Holy Spirit will go with them. The Holy Spirit must leave because otherwise antichrist cannot reign in this world. One of the reasons the tribulation has to happen is because otherwise Jews won't repent who they killed on the cross. And until they repent they Lord Jesus will never ever return on Earth (Mount of Olives) because that is what He said. That is the reason why satan tried to kill every Jew in WW2 so there would be no Jew left here to repent.


Okay first where is
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all his angels are with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. The people of every nation will be gathered in front of him. He will separate them as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right but the goats on his left. (Matthew 25:31-33)

You can read the whole book of revelation if you need more evidence.

The rapture will happen first so that those who love Jesus will be taken into Heavens so they do not have to experience it, and the Holy Spirit will go with them. The Holy Spirit must leave because otherwise antichrist cannot reign in this world. One of the reasons the tribulation has to happen is because otherwise Jews won't repent who they killed on the cross. And until they repent they Lord Jesus will never ever return on Earth (Mount of Olives) because that is what He said. That is the reason why satan tried to kill every Jew in WW2 so there would be no Jew left here to repent.

Read rev 20 again. The judgment you of everybody does not happen till the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth.

With that logic of those who love Jesus will not have to experience the great tribulation then who are those that are spoke of in rev 20? Just the 144000 thousand? None born again followers of Jesus? No and no... only those who are born again can enter heaven. Including the 144,000 of the 12 tribes.


Rev 20: 11-12
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 
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Douggg

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here is my chart I made in less then 5 hours.. simple without private interpretation. I let the Bible do the talking not mine own understanding.
View attachment 279507
Matt, you need to get a graphics program like paintshop pro 2020, and learn how to use it. You are young, and your brain is not overcrowded, which will make it easier.

Because your chart is not computerized, the main timeline does not stand out. If you had a computerized chart, the main timeline could be bolded and/or it's own color.

I looked at your chart and don't see the starting point of the 70th week.

Try another stab at making your chart. Show the beginning of the 70th week, and focus on making a critical path of the major events to get to the end when Jesus returns. The bookend elements to the chart are the beginning and ending of the 7 years.

Just get the major events down where they would go on the critical path. Like the abomination of desolation setup to be worshiped. In developing your chart, it is not necessary to place all of the trumpet and vial judgements. Those take place during the great tribulation.

But you do need to show where the great tribulation begins on your chart.

Critical path method is what engineers and planners use to schedule how long, and what has to be done in sequence to get a project done from inception to completion. I am a former project engineer, 24 years ago, and I have made a lot of project drawings in my time.

The critical path on my chart is the red line starting in the upper left and continuing down diagonally to the lower right. You can look at my chart of the events on the critical path - to give you some idea of what the critical events are.

upload_2020-6-24_15-9-58.jpeg
 
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BABerean2

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Matt, you need to get a graphics program like paintshop pro 2020, and learn how to use it. You are young, and your brain is not overcrowded, which will make it easier.

I looked at your chart and don't see the starting point of the 70th week.

Try another stab at making your chart. Show the beginning of the 70th week, and focus on making a critical path of the major events to get to the end when Jesus returns. The bookend elements to the chart are the beginning and ending of the 7 years.

Just get the major events down where they would go on the critical path. Like the abomination of desolation setup to be worshiped. In developing your chart, it is not necessary to place all of the trumpet and vial judgements. Those take place during the great tribulation.

But you do need to show where the great tribulation begins on your chart.

Critical path method is what engineers and planners use to schedule how long, and what has to be done in sequence to get a project done from inception to completion. I am a former project engineer, 24 years ago, and I have made a lot of project drawings in my time.

The critical path on my chart is the red line starting in the upper left and continuing down diagonally to the lower right. You can look at my chart of the events on the critical path - to give you some idea of what the critical events are.

View attachment 279509



Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.
 
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Matt Torres

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Matt, you need to get a graphics program like paintshop pro 2020, and learn how to use it. You are young, and your brain is not overcrowded, which will make it easier.

Because your chart is not computerized, the main timeline does not stand out. If you had a computerized chart, the main timeline could be bolded and/or it's own color.

I looked at your chart and don't see the starting point of the 70th week.

Try another stab at making your chart. Show the beginning of the 70th week, and focus on making a critical path of the major events to get to the end when Jesus returns. The bookend elements to the chart are the beginning and ending of the 7 years.

Just get the major events down where they would go on the critical path. Like the abomination of desolation setup to be worshiped. In developing your chart, it is not necessary to place all of the trumpet and vial judgements. Those take place during the great tribulation.

But you do need to show where the great tribulation begins on your chart.

Critical path method is what engineers and planners use to schedule how long, and what has to be done in sequence to get a project done from inception to completion. I am a former project engineer, 24 years ago, and I have made a lot of project drawings in my time.

The critical path on my chart is the red line starting in the upper left and continuing down diagonally to the lower right. You can look at my chart of the events on the critical path - to give you some idea of what the critical events are.

View attachment 279509


Simple is better. You author confusion. I don’t lean on my own understanding because I do not trust myself. The timeline I put forth is only supported. By the verse themself. The great tribulation starts when the two witnesses start. (3.5 years)
 
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Douggg

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Before we talk about the transgression and abomination... let’s first agree or disagree on this one simple truth. In 1Th4:16-17 does the Bible not say when Jesus comes down those who are left on the earth and are born again followers of Jesus get take to meet him? I don’t understand why you are making this so complicated.
There are two groups which get taken in the rapture/resurrection.

The dead in Christ, are resurrected and ascend first. And those who remain after those ascend are the living Christians. And the two groups join together in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

The rapture/resurrection takes place very quickly, a matter of seconds, figuratively the twinkling of an eye.

If you can agree with that simple understanding of 1Thessalonian4:16-17, then the disagreement becomes over when the rapture/resurrection takes place and if the rapture is the means which the living will escape having to experience the great tribulation.
 
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DavidPT

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I was explaining to you that you have to look beyond 1Thessalonians4:16-18 to determine when the rapture will take place.

From a combination of 1Thessalonians5:1-3 about the beginning of the Day of Lord when God's wrath will be poured out. And 2Thessalonians2:1-4, the Day of Lord not beginning until the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act*.... the Rapture could take place anytime between right this second and that act by the Antichrist, some time in the middle part of the 70th week.

*Do you know the difference between the transgression of desolation act and the abomination of desolation thing ?


The day of the Lord is after the time of the 42 month reign of the beast. This can be seen in the 5th and 6th seal.

The little season they are resting in heaven is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast back on earth. We are told in the 5th seal that it is not yet time for them to be avenged, but that the 42 month reign of the beast has to be fulfilled first. That obviously means the day of the Lord fits during the 6th seal, then. Even Matthew 24:29 shows this as well. The tribulation of those days are meaning the 42 month reign of the beast. And that begins with the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not. Anyone reading the Discourse is not going to see a hint of the wrath of God being unleashed during the trib of those days. His wrath comes after. His wrath is during the 6th seal events.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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Having been on all sides of the debate, I believe that the presence of evil will intensify. Then, Jesus will return with the souls of deceased saints, he will judge all newly-resurrected people, create a new universe, in which we believers will all live eternally. If it doesn't happen that way, at least Jesus is going to return. I don't think any of us will complain then that it didn't turn out the way we thought.
 
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DavidPT

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Having been on all sides of the debate, I believe that the presence of evil will intensify. Then, Jesus will return with the souls of deceased saints, he will judge all newly-resurrected people, create a new universe, in which we believers will all live eternally. If it doesn't happen that way, at least Jesus is going to return. I don't think any of us will complain then that it didn't turn out the way we thought.


Well there is this debate between Premil and Amil, though. I'm Premil myself, but if it turns out in the end Amil was the correct position after all, no big deal to me. I will still be happy either way. But the way most Amils despise the thought of Premil, and if in the end it turns out Premil is the correct position, I just don't see Amils being happy, regardless. Some of them have given the impression in the past, that if Premil were true, then they would want no part in it. Imagine that, even if it were true, they would want no part in it.
 
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SeventyOne

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Paul never mentions “3 orders of” resurrection.. you however do mention three orders of resurrections. Nothing in those verses mention Jesus rapturing his people before the tribulation.. what do you think the point of the Mark of the Beast is? We are meant to suffer through the great tribulation and chose to accept the Mark or die. The verses you shared that Paul wrote do not support pre-trib rapture.

You are really going to have to put some more study into it. Everything you denied is in there, actually is in there.

It makes zero sense to say the Church has to endure the Tribulation, but then imply it's only those living at that time have to go through it. If the Church has to go through it, then the entire Church has to go through it, living and dead. If it's mandated for the Church, you would need passages indicating the dead in Christ are raised pre-trib, are made to live, and suffer through it. Any other way demonstrates the Church doesn't actually need to suffer through the Trib.
 
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There are two phases of Christ’s second coming. In the first phase, He will come to the clouds and in the second He will come here down to Earth, on the Mount of Olives.

The reason for Jesus’s arrival on Mount of Olives will be so that He establishes the Kingdom of God here on Earth. When He arrives on Mount of Olives, He will not take anyone anywhere. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and their trial shall begin. And when the trial over all of the nations ends, the millennia Kingdom of God here on Earth will begin. But before He appears on Mount of Olives, He promised that He will arrive to the clouds, not here down on Earth. And that will be for one and only reason, and that is that He will takes us somewhere. He will not stay here on Earth, He will just take us with Him.

Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. (1 Tess. 4:17)

And this is how we will be with the Lord Jesus forever. That’s something completely different from what the Lord says in these two verses:

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (Rev. 1:7)

For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24:27)

And when we see these three verses, that one talks about the arrival to the clouds, and the other verses talk about arrival here on Earth (Mount of Olives) than we have to recognise that this is the mystery that Apostle Paul talked about in 1 Corin. 15:51 and that is ‘Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed’

When Jesus comes down here on Earth, when He actually touches the ground, He does not speak about a transformation, He does not speak about being caught up in the clouds (the rapture), He is talking about that, that when He arrives here on Earth, all of the nations will be crying. And the reason for everyone's cry will be because of who they all not have believed in. They will see Him and all of His glory and might with their own eyes.

But before that, the reason Jesus comes to the clouds will be that He takes everyone with Him who loves Him, who completely trust Him and obeys Him, everyone who is waiting for Him. So that He takes them to The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Because the secret of the two phases of Christ’s second coming is that when He comes in to the clouds, He will take the Church with Him ‘In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.’
And the promise He has given us that we will go there and the secret is in that this is where The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be. And when we attend this Supper, the world will be in the Great Tribulation. And this Great Tribulation is the time that will be between the two phases of Jesus’s second arrival. For whilst the Supper of the Lamb will be happening in Heaven, the Beast (antichrist) will be ruling the whole World.

The difference between Jesus arrival to the clouds and His arrival here on Earth will be that in the exact same time one group of people will attend The Supper of the Lamb, the second group of people will experience the Great Tribulation. And that is why the Bible all says that: Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” (Rev 12:12).

For the prophecy from Daniel 7:23 to be fulfilled, where Daniel talks about the final Beast – the antichrist that he will rule the entire World and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces. For the final Beast and all of this to happen, something must happens first. As Apostle Paul says, there is something that is holding the Beast from ruling the enitre World (the Great Tribulation). That day will not come just like that. Someone, who is holding the antichrist ‘s reveal and thus preventing from the Great Tribulation from happening, must leave the Earth. That someone must be with His own power stopping from antichrist ruling. And Paul says in 2 Thess. 2:6-7 ‘And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
When Jesus comes to the clouds, we will go home and the Holy Spirit with us. And the reason is that the Holy Spirit came down here on Earth for His Church and He will leave with them. How He came down, He will also leave. And He is the one that is holding the antichrist, because the Church is still here on Earth. While the Holy Spirit and the Church are here on Earth, the antichrist can’t rule the World. And once the Church is raptured, and the Holy Spirit departs to Heaven with them, because there is no Christian (born in Spirit) here on Earth, the antichrist is revealed (because now no one is holding him up anymore) that is when the Great Tribulation takes place, and will last until Jesus comes down to Earth on Mount of Olives and He will destroy the antichrist with His breast and thus the Great Tribulation will end.



Ivan H: "And the promise He has given us that we will go there and the secret is in that this is where The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be. And when we attend this Supper, the world will be in the Great Tribulation. And this Great Tribulation is the time that will be between the two phases of Jesus’s second arrival. For whilst the Supper of the Lamb will be happening in Heaven, the Beast (antichrist) will be ruling the whole World."



Ivan, I don't think I've ever seen this interpretation before. I'll try to explain why it doesn't make sense to me.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Revelation 8:9-11 NIV


Revelation 8 doesn't say that the martyrs who come out of the Tribulation will go to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It says that they are waiting, somewhat impatiently, "under the altar." Certainly there is no reason why those who have been martyred for the "word of God" would be excluded from the Lamb's banquet while those who are lucky enough to have been raptured are enjoying it. There won't be two tiers of believers when we get to heaven.

Surely the martyrs will have an honored place in heaven, not be second class citizens.
 
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Douggg

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The day of the Lord is after the time of the 42 month reign of the beast. This can be seen in the 5th and 6th seal.

Dave, but that is not when the Day of the Lord begins.
upload_2020-6-24_15-58-56.jpeg


The little season they are resting in heaven is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast back on earth. We are told in the 5th seal that it is not yet time for them to be avenged, but that the 42 month reign of the beast has to be fulfilled first. That obviously means the day of the Lord fits during the 6th seal, then.

The Day of the Lord encompasses the great tribulation, including the fifth seal great tribulation martyrs and the sixth seal event. And the Day of the Lord continues into the 1000 years reign. And the Day of the Lord continues into eternity - never ending.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Ivan H: "And the promise He has given us that we will go there and the secret is in that this is where The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be. And when we attend this Supper, the world will be in the Great Tribulation. And this Great Tribulation is the time that will be between the two phases of Jesus’s second arrival. For whilst the Supper of the Lamb will be happening in Heaven, the Beast (antichrist) will be ruling the whole World."



Ivan, I don't think I've ever seen this interpretation before. I'll try to explain why it doesn't make sense to me.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
Revelation 8:9-11 NIV


Revelation 8 doesn't say that the martyrs who come out of the Tribulation will go to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It says that they are waiting, somewhat impatiently, "under the altar." Certainly there is no reason why those who have been martyred for the "word of God" would be excluded from the Lamb's banquet while those who are lucky enough to have been raptured are enjoying it. There won't be two tiers of believers when we get to heaven.

Surely the martyrs will have an honored place in heaven, not be second class citizens.

Ok, so there are 3 groups that come to heaven. Hear me out
The first group are the Christians who are raptured. Not every Christian will get raptured, only those who love Lord Jesus more than anything else

Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour. (Matthew 25:1-13)

When the rapture happens, only the wise will be taken in, because they love the Lord with everything they have. The foolish ones, who love Lord Jesus, but love some earthly things more will remain here on Earth and they experience the tribulation. They too are saved, (Parable of 10 virgins say the Kingdom of Heaven will be like 10 virgins, 5 foolish and 5 wise, so both groups are there) but as a punishment of not loving Jesus above else they will be left behind. When the rapture happens the foolish ones will realise of their mistake and those of who repent will resist antichrist will be killed because of it and they too will go to heaven, but they must resist antichrist, if they don't and they bow to him they will go to hell.

The first group in Heaven are the Christians that are raptured and they attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. These are the saints that descent with Lord Jesus on Mount of Olives.

The second group are the Christians who are left behind because they did not love Jesus above everything else, but during the tribulation they repent and are killed by antichrist because of it. But they will miss the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, these are the Christians in 'They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.' These are not all of the Christians that are killed for Jesus' name but only the Christians killed during the tribulation. How do I know this? Apostle Stephen, when he was about to be killed, what did he say? 'Father please don't count this sin on them'. If Stephen before he was killed asked God to forgive his killers, why would he then in Heaven, when He sees the glory of God, all of the sudden ask for vengeance? That doesn't make sense. You see the tribulation will be so horrible that despite the killed Christians during the tribulation will see God's glory will still ask for vengeance. Why? Because no one in Holy Spirit will ask for vengeance, they don't ask for it here on Earth, they don't ask for it in Heaven. Wait, you can go to Heaven without the Holy Spirit? Yes but only if you are killed during the tribulation for Jesus' name.

Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.' See, this is all the people who are killed during the tribulation. All Christians will be killed during the tribulation who speak of Jesus' name.

So the first group are the Christians raptured, second group are the Christians who are left behind but they still have a chance to repent and they are killed because they do, and the third group are all the Jews who repent and accept Jesus as Messiah when He comes back to Mount of Olives.
 
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Matt Torres

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Your chart is confusing.

View attachment 279512


Dan 70weeks ends when Jesus returns. At the end of the great tribulation. See how the line runs into 1 Th 4:17 vers

The Bible never tells us about when the 1290 Or the 1335 days starts or ends
 
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Before the beginning of the Day of Lord. And before the beginning of the great tribulation. Both are on my chart on the timing of the Rapture.

View attachment 279500

I like it; I even agree with the Rapture timing. It can happen any time. I agree with the placement of the Abomination of Desolations (AOD), and the resurrection of the saints in two phases. The only thing I disagree with you on is the placement of the period of time known as the: “Day of the Lord”; I believe you are close to it's beginning point, but more precisely I believe it begins at the breaking of the 6th seal (Which is after the AOD and the Antichrist kills many saints in with the 4th seal (Death). I believe the: “Day of the Lord” ends after the 2nd coming of Christ, and the earth being purified by fire as mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10. The “Day of the Lord” is described as a day of darkness and not light: “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.” (Amos 5:18). For this reason, I do not think it extends into the Millennium. or the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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Read rev 20 again. The judgment you of everybody does not happen till the end of the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth.

No the Judgement happens when He comes down to Mount of Olives, before He establish the thousand year Kingdom.

With that logic of those who love Jesus will not have to experience the great tribulation then who are those that are spoke of in rev 20? Just the 144000 thousand? None born again followers of Jesus? No and no... only those who are born again can enter heaven. Including the 144,000 of the 12 tribes.

Read the post number 57 in this thread, where I explained this.
 
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