Ammillennial Return of Christ: by Dr. Sam Storms

Zao is life · Jun 24, 2020

DavidPT said:
While I do disagree with some of your post, some of I tend to think you might be correct about, or least pretty close. The following are some of my reasons why satan is not being loosed from the pit in Revelation 9, mainly because he is not even in the pit at the time to begin with.

Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

What is one thing all of these have in common? They all involve woes. What seems more likely to me is this.

And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!----Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time---the beginning of the first woe---And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Therefore, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time---seems to start with this---and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit---therefore making this fallen star likely to be satan. Assuming this is correct, this alone proves satan is not coming out of the pit in Revelation 9, as if he had been locked inside as well, if he is instead the one opening it.

Something else in common among the verses above are this----Both Revelation 8:13 and Revelation 12:12 pronounce woes on the inhabiters of the earth, and that in the latter it starts with satan being cast to the earth, and in Revelation 9 the first woe begins with a falling star falling to earth and then opening the pit. Falling stars are usually not depicting something good, so the chance of this falling star being a good angel is highly unlikely, therefore satan looks like he fits Revelation 9:1 the best.

And here's the interesting twist. The very same bottomless pit satan is given the key to, assuming the falling star is meaning him, he ends up locked up in this same pit with this same key. But this time it's the exact opposite than in Revelation 9. In Revelation 9 a bad angel is unlocking the pit to let things out, and that since there is no indication in that chapter that the pit gets shut and locked again, this means it's likely already still open when the good angel comes down from heaven in Revelation 20:1 already possessing the key. But this time not to open it up and let things out, but to cast something in, then lock the pit back up again.

Something else we need to keep in mind, even if the falling star in Revelation 9:1 isn't satan, Revelation 12:12 records him being cast out of heaven to the earth, and not cast out of the bottomless pit to the earth, nor cast out of heaven then cast into the bottomless pit. Either way you look at it, Revelation 9:1 together with Revelation 12:12 shows that there is no connection with satan being in the pit at the time, or about to be in the pit at the time.

Up till now, I had been pondering and keeping in mind the possibility that the star fallen from heaven which was given the key to open the bottomless pit, is Satan - but you have given me more confirmation on this, and what you said not only makes total sense to me, it gave me even more insight. VERY informative post. Thank you.

The other thing to note is that Satan is said to have been the accuser of the brethren and he was in heaven, accusing them before the throne - but they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb. In other words, it's the cross that defeated Satan:

John 12:31-32 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."
John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Rev 12:10-11 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 10:18 And He (Jesus) said to them, I saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning.

So Satan was defeated at that point. But was he bound at that point?

All the following verses in the New Testament imply that he was not bound at that point:-

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In Rev 13:2, Satan is also the one giving the beast its power and its seat and great authority, after it ascends out of the bottomless pit - and Satan opens the bottomless pit after being given the key.

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him its power and its seat and great authority.

There is a lot of confusion as to whether Satan was cast out of heaven when Christ purchased salvation by his blood, or if he will (still) be cast out of heaven - but I think that we shouldn't assume that when we read of the star (fall or fallen?) from heaven, that the star had not already fallen (past tense) from heaven long before being given the key to the bottomless pit:

The King James version translates it as "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

But the Young's Literal Translation translates it as "And the fifth messenger did sound, and I saw a star out of the heaven having fallen to the earth, and there was given to it the key of the pit of the abyss,"

The Greek words translated as "fall" in the KJV are pipto peto :

G4098 πίπτω πέτω piptō petō pip'-to pet'-o
The first is a reduplicated and contracted form of the second (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to G4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally of figuratively): - fail fall (down) light on.

I'm no Greek expert so I don't know whether the word should be rendered in the past tense (fallen) or in the present tense (fall) - but my understanding leans towards "having fallen" (past tense), as translated in the YLT.

Whatever the case may be, it's not only the Revelation that gives no indication whatsoever that Satan was "bound" when Jesus died:

In the New Testament Paul refers to the Ephesians' old way of life as "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" (Eph 2:2).

In John 14:30 Jesus called Satan "the prince of this world".

In 2 Cor 4:4 Paul refers to "the god of this age that did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;" (Young's Literal Translation).

There is no reason not to assume Paul is referring to Satan in the above verse, and the suggestion implied in Paul's statement is that Satan is even now deceiving the nations.

Peter also warned: 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour;

Altogether, there is therefore an abundance of statements in the gospels, epistles and Revelation that imply that Satan, though defeated when Jesus died, was not bound at that point; but there is nothing to in the New Testament to suggest the contrary unless one chooses to make certain scriptures fit the contrary position - and as you have also pointed out, the angel that comes down with the key to the bottomless pit in Revelation 20, locks Satan up in the bottomless pit at that point.

YeshuaFan · Jun 24, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
That shows how biased you are. They are closer to Covenant Theologians by their own confession.

I hold to Covenant Theology Premil, and see them getting closer to CT not further away!

Bobber · Jun 24, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Since the earth is a sphere with literal real boundaries, can you explain to us how to put a literal "bottomless" pit anywhere on this planet?

We could go the direction of talking about "bottomless" which I did share in a verse prior how physics could allow that in the centre of the earth. But we don't have to stay with the translators choice of bottomless. The greek word is abussos which translated other places as the "abyss" So you ask where within the earth is this located? It's a spiritual place located in the centre of the earth.

Rom. 10:7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”

Phil. 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth.

So why can't we just accept that it's in the centre of the physical earth. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.

BABerean2 · Jun 24, 2020

Bobber said:
We could go the direction of talking about "bottomless" which I did share in a verse prior how physics could allow that in the centre of the earth. But we don't have to stay with the translators choice of bottomless. The greek word is abussos which translated other places as the "abyss" So you ask where within the earth is this located? It's a spiritual place located in the centre of the earth.

Rom. 10:7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”

Phil. 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth.

So why can't we just accept that it's in the centre of the physical earth. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.

The center of this planet is a ball made up of solid Iron, and Nickel, surrounded by a layer of molten Iron, and Nickel.

The earth is a giant magnet due to this composition, and is the reason a compass points North, and South.

I was an Earth Science teacher many years ago.

Earthquake waves have helped us understand the layers inside the earth, due to their absorption, and reflection by layers inside the earth.

The only true "bottomless pit" would be black hole, which is produced by the explosion of very large stars.
No black holes are located on, or inside this planet.

.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Who is the "king" of the bottomless pit?

It doesn't say - who is the king of the bottomless pit in the text. You are reading "king of the bottomless pit" into the text.

There are two angels in Revelation 9.
1. the star falling from heaven - an angel. Satan.
2. the king over the locusts - an angel. Abaddon.

Which one of those two angels is the angel of the bottomless pit? The choice between Satan and the king of the locust.

It does not say Abaddon is the "king of the bottomless pit". Abaddon is the king over the locust. Not everyone in the bottomless pit.

Zao is life · Jun 24, 2020

DavidPT said:
The woe in Revelation 12:12 has to fit one of the 3 woes involving the last 3 trumpets. If it doesn't fit the first woe, maybe it fits the 2nd woe, then. I'm not even going to suggest it fits the 3rd woe since that woe is the 7th trumpet. So that means the woe in Revelation 12:12 either fits the first woe, the 5th trumpet events, or fits the 2nd woe, the 6th trumpet events.

Or the woe in Rev 12:12 fits both the first woe and the second woe. (If Satan is the angel of the bottomless pit and he has opened it, then this gives rise to the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit which receives its kingdom, throne and great authority from Satan).

Sixth seal:
Sun becomes black, moon becomes like blood. People are trying to hide from the coming wrath of God. (Rev.6:12-17).

Sixth plague:
Beast gathers his armies to the battle of Armageddon. Jesus interjects, saying He is coming as unexpectedly as a thief. Exhorts His people to watch and to keep their garments (Rev.16: 12-16).

Sixth trumpet:
"And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two myriads of myriads. And I heard their number." (Rev.9:16)

40 years after the exodus from Egypt, Israel was entering the promised land, and had reached Jericho. After marching around the walls of Jericho once for six days, the Israelites marched around the walls of Jericho seven times on the seventh day, and the judgment of Jericho took place on the seventh day, the seventh time the Israelites marched around the city, when the seventh trumpet sounded (Joshua 6:15-16).

Seventh trumpet:
The kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our LORD and of His Christ and there are "voices, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake" (Revelation 11:19)

Seventh plague:
Destruction of the kingdoms of this world and there are "voices, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake" (Revelation 16:18)

Seventh seal
Silence in heaven for half and hour. The angel takes the censer and fills it with fire from the altar, and casts it into the earth, and there are "voices, thunderings, lightnings and an earthquake" (Revelation 8:5).

sovereigngrace · Jun 24, 2020

Douggg said:
It doesn't say - who is the king of the bottomless pit in the text. You are reading "king of the bottomless pit" into the text.

There are two angels in Revelation 9.
1. the star falling from heaven - an angel. Satan.
2. the king over the locusts - an angel. Abaddon.

Which one of those two angels is the angel of the bottomless pit? The choice between Satan and the king of the locust.

It does not say Abaddon is the "king of the bottomless pit". Abaddon is the king over the locust. Not everyone in the bottomless pit.

This proves: he is in the pit now (before the last trumpet) and that he rules over his own kingdom (demons). There is no other king over the kingdom of darkness. That place belongs to Satan alone. As a spirit, he is in spiritual chains in a spiritual prison now. That does not negate movement. It’s simply the notes that he is under divine restraint.

BABerean2 · Jun 24, 2020

Douggg said:
It doesn't say - who is the king of the bottomless pit in the text. You are reading "king of the bottomless pit" into the text.

There are two angels in Revelation 9.
1. the star falling from heaven - an angel. Satan.
2. the king over the locusts - an angel. Abaddon.

Which one of those two angels is the angel of the bottomless pit? The choice between Satan and the king of the locust.

It does not say Abaddon is the "king of the bottomless pit". Abaddon is the king over the locust. Not everyone in the bottomless pit.

Do you really think Satan is going to allow one of the other wicked angels to be king over him?

Revelation 9:11

(CJB) They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is "Abaddon" and in our language, "Destroyer."

(ESV) They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

(Geneva) And they haue a King ouer them, which is the Angel of the bottomlesse pit, whose name in Hebrewe is Abaddon, and in Greeke he is named Apollyon, that is, destroying.

(Greek NT TR) και εχουσιν επ αυτων βασιλεα τον αγγελον της αβυσσου ονομα αυτω εβραιστι αβαδδων και εν τη ελληνικη ονομα εχει απολλυων

(GW) The king who ruled them was the angel from the bottomless pit. In Hebrew he is called Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

(KJV) And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

(KJV+) AndG2532 they hadG2192 a kingG935 overG1909 them,G846 which is theG3588 angelG32 of theG3588 bottomless pit,G12 whoseG846 nameG3686 in the Hebrew tongueG1447 is Abaddon,G3 butG2532 inG1722 theG3588 Greek tongueG1673 hathG2192 his nameG3686 Apollyon.G623

(NKJV) And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.

(NLT) Their king is the angel from the bottomless pit; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon—the Destroyer.

(YLT) and they have over them a king—the messenger of the abyss—a name is to him in Hebrew, Abaddon, and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon.

.

sovereigngrace · Jun 24, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Do you really think Satan is going to allow one of the other wicked angels to be king over him?

.

No way!

sovereigngrace · Jun 24, 2020

Douggg said:
It doesn't say - who is the king of the bottomless pit in the text. You are reading "king of the bottomless pit" into the text.

There are two angels in Revelation 9.
1. the star falling from heaven - an angel. Satan.
2. the king over the locusts - an angel. Abaddon.

Which one of those two angels is the angel of the bottomless pit? The choice between Satan and the king of the locust.

It does not say Abaddon is the "king of the bottomless pit". Abaddon is the king over the locust. Not everyone in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 9 and 20 both show Satan and his minions in the pit long before the second coming. Both show Satan and his minions being released from the abyss before the second coming. We are in the figurative "thousand years" period now or entering Satan's little season. Revelation is full of recaps. These are different camera views of the same intra-Advent game.

Revelation 9:1 says: “I saw a star fall (or descend) from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the abyss.”

Revelation 20:1 says: “I saw an angel come down (or descend) from heaven, having the key of the abyss.”

Whilst there are two different Greek words used here in these two passages – pipto in Revelation 9:1 and katabaino in Revelation 20:1 – both can be translated descent, alight and fall.

Now, granted, these could relate to different time-periods. Revelation 9 is a later ascent near the end (before the second coming) in order to remove the spiritual restraint upon Satan and his kingdom. But they both show that the authority over the pit and the kingdom of darkness is heavenly.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2020

BABerean2 said:
Do you really think Satan is going to allow one of the other wicked angels to be king over him?

.

No, I don't.

But what I think is that you are jumping to a conclusion that being the king over the locust - implies being the king of the bottomless pit.

I think it is just distinguishing that between Satan and Abaddon, the two angels in Revelation 9 - one the falling star angel, and the other the angel of the bottomless pit over the locust. No ruling king of the bottomless pit is mentioned in Revelation 9.

No other beings in the bottomless pit are mentioned in Revelation 9 for Abaddon to be king over. Like the angels that committed the sex with human women to create the race of giants.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation 9:1 says: “I saw a star fall (or descend) from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the abyss.”

I don't think fall means descends - like in an orderly fashion.

I think fall means cast down. Like Babylon is fallen, is fallen in Revelation 18. Referring to Satan's and his angels kingdom, when he and his angels are cast down to earth in Revelation 12:7-9.

And the falling angel is tossed the key to the bottomless pit as he is falling to earth.

Which "having the key to the bottomless pit" may just mean having permission to verbally call out them held prison there. To go on to their final judgment when Jesus returns.

_________________________________________________________

When the seventh angel sounds his trumpet in Revelation 11, it is not at the very end of the 7 years, as a lot of people assume. It is right after the midpoint in the seven years, and it begins the final steps of the mystery of God to remove Satan from power, and bring the Kingdom of God to be the ruling kingdom here on earth.

Note, in Revelation 10:7 in the "days" of the 7th angel.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The voice of the seventh angel - is not just a trumpet blast - it is series of now is the time proclamations. In Revelation 12:7-9, now is the time that Michael is to stand up (in Daniel 12:1) to make war on Satan and his angels and cast them down to earth.

The days of the voice of the seventh angel spans the time, times, half time in Revelation 12:14.

When Satan is cast down, then the time will have come to judge them also who are now in prison in the bottomless pit; so they are released.

sovereigngrace · Jun 24, 2020

5thKingdom said:
You said:
I do not agree

Good, I welcome your comments and look forward
to the opportunity to TEST what I have "revealed"

You said:
Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact, the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump):

As I have already written:

(1) First, the Great Tribulation or the Revelation Beast and the end
of the world is shown to be THREE (3) Woes or the Fifth Trumpet,
Sixth Trumpet and Seventh Trumpet

Rev 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the
midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to
the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of
the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

You said:
Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that Satan and his demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Yes... actually we have the opening of the Pit at the
FIRST WOE (Fifth Trumpet) which is the START of
the Great Tribulation or Revelation Beast.

Rev 9:1
And the fifth angel sounded, [that is the FIRST WOE]
and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to
him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

You said:
Before proceeding any further, we should carefully note a few things here which most commentators seem to overlook. Firstly, this “star” descended “from heaven unto the earth.” Secondly, having settled on “the earth” the “star” gained direct rule and authority over the abyss. Regardless of one’s theological position, we must accept that the abyss (however we understand it) is located on earth.

Do you REALLY think there is a PHYSICAL key?
Do you REALLY think Satan is "bound" in PHYSICAL chains?
Do you REALLY think the Bottomless Pit is some
GEOGRAPHIC AREA on earth
(Maybe under Antarctica?)

The Pit is a CONDITION to not have AUTHORITY
during the Great Commission of the Church Age
(again showing Satan was BOUND at the Cross)

Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have
commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway,
even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Bro, I am Amil. I believe the binding is spiritual and relates to the here-and-now. Please read my posts before refuting something I don't believe.

First... you made a mistake.
The King reigns over the "Locusts" (not the Pit)

Rev 9:10-11
And they [the Locusts] had tails like unto scorpions,
[representing false prophets] and there were stings in
their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
And they [the Locusts] had a king over them, which is
the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the
Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue
hath his name Apollyon.

Where does Scripture ever locate humans in the abyss? Never. It is either Hades now or the Lake of Fire in the future. The elect angel is given authority over the pit. But the pit possesses inhabitants (demons) over which there is a king (Satan).

Secondly, the "angel of the Bottomless Pit" is Satan
(Apollyon) since it is Satan which is "bound" in the Pit
(at the Cross)

Once again... the Bottomless Pit is NOT a "kingdom"
nor is it a geographic area under Antarctica... instead,

The Pit is a CONDITION to not have AUTHORITY
during the Great Commission of the Church Age
(again showing Satan was BOUND at the Cross)

The angel carries the key (authority). Since the earthly life, death and resurrection Satan has lost his spiritual authority, Christ and the kingdom of God hold that over him now. Satan has no right to that key.

So you think the Bottomless Pit is Satan's realm?
Then WHY was he "bound" to it for 1000 years?
The Bottomless Pit is not Satan's realm, instead,
it is Satan's CAGE... he is "bound" to stay there.

Please read what i am writing. I am not disagreeing.

And again... we must not pretend the key was a
PHYSICAL key or that Satan is "bound" in PHYSICAL
chains... or that the Bottomless Pit is some geographic
area on earth... or that the "Locusts" are big green
grasshoppers coming out of the Pit.

The Pit is a CONDITION to not have AUTHORITY
during the Great Commission of the Church Age
(again showing Satan was BOUND at the Cross)

It is pointless me going any further. Please read what I am writing, not what you think I am writing. I agree with your general position.

sovereigngrace · Jun 24, 2020

Douggg said:
No, I don't.

But what I think is that you are jumping to a conclusion that being the king over the locust - implies being the king of the bottomless pit.

I think it is just distinguishing that between Satan and Abaddon, the two angels in Revelation 9 - one the falling star angel, and the other the angel of the bottomless pit over the locust. No ruling king of the bottomless pit is mentioned in Revelation 9.

No other beings in the bottomless pit are mentioned in Revelation 9 for Abaddon to be king over. Like the angels that committed the sex with human women to create the race of giants.

Satan is NOT the king of (or over) the bottomless pit but the king over its inhabitants. Christ currently rules over the pit and all its occupants since the first resurrection.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Satan is NOT the king of (or over) the bottomless pit but the king over its inhabitants. Christ currently rules over the pit and all its occupants since the first resurrection.

I am not seeing the distinction you are making.

Satan himself is not in the bottomless pit.

sovereigngrace · Jun 24, 2020

Douggg said:
I am not seeing the distinction you are making.

Satan himself is not in the bottomless pit.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Rev 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

sovereigngrace · Jun 24, 2020

Douggg said:
I am not seeing the distinction you are making.

Satan himself is not in the bottomless pit.

Revelation 9 describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season. This is something Premils choose to overlook. The abyss is inhabited now with Satan's minions. They had a king over them (Abaddon / Apollyon), a ruler who marshalled their hosts. This is Satan - the only king in the kingdom of darkness.

The restraint of the kingdom of darkness stays in effect until just before the second coming, when hell’s legions are collectively released – for a short season at the end. The release of Satan, beast (mystery of iniquity), and demons (scorpions) all occur just prior to the second coming. This proves that the symbolism of Revelation relates to the here-and-now.

Kingdoms and their heads are basically indivisible. The head of each state (whether Monarch, President or Prime Minister) is seen as the face of the nation or the personification of what that nation is all about. They are essentially the voice of the people. Even in United Kingdom law, perpetrators of a crime are listed as “R – v the criminal” meaning “Regina v” in a legal case, Regina referring to the Queen. She is counted as the offended party, even though she was not personally injured. She is simply the representative head of the people. The leader has always been viewed as the one who stands on behalf of countless subjects.

The king and his kingdom are used synonymously and interchangeably throughout Scripture. The kingdom of God is described in Scripture in terms that are identical to God Himself. He is its head and its very purpose for existing; Satan likewise is the same in the kingdom of darkness. The kingdom of darkness is a unitary whole. It is a kingdom with a king. A kingdom is basically “a king with a domain.” The kingdom of God is a kingdom of spiritual truth, and the kingdom of darkness is a kingdom of spiritual lies and deception.

Christ didn't just defeat Satan 2,000 years ago, he defeated the demonic kingdom. Every demonic spirit was subjugated through the cross-work and placed in a place of spiritual restraint after the life, death and resurrection of Christ. The freedom and restriction that pertains to Satan permeates down through his subjects as he is the representative head.

Revelation 9 describes an abyss that is currently full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season. This is something Premils choose to overlook. The abyss is inhabited now with Satan's minions. They have a king over them (Abaddon / Apollyon), a ruler who marshals their hosts. This is Satan - the only king in the kingdom of darkness.

Strong's says: “Apolluon means a destroyer (i.e. Satan).”

John Calvin rightly says, that Christ “teaches us not only that the tyranny of Satan was abolished by Christ’s death, but also that he himself was so laid prostrate, that no more account is to be made of him than as though he were not. He speaks of the devil according to the usual practice of Scripture, in the singular number, not because there is but one, but because they all form one community which cannot be supposed to be without a head.”

They had a king (not an abstract idea like you are suggesting) over them (Abaddon / Apollyon), a ruler who marshalled their hosts. This is Satan - the only king in the kingdom of darkness.

Satan is described as “the prince (or ruler) of the devils” in Matthew 9:34, 12:24 and Mark 3:22), although Matthew 9:34 extends the name to “Beelzebub the prince of the devils.”

DavidPT · Jun 24, 2020

Bobber said:
We could go the direction of talking about "bottomless" which I did share in a verse prior how physics could allow that in the centre of the earth. But we don't have to stay with the translators choice of bottomless. The greek word is abussos which translated other places as the "abyss" So you ask where within the earth is this located? It's a spiritual place located in the centre of the earth.

Rom. 10:7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”

Phil. 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth.

So why can't we just accept that it's in the centre of the physical earth. I don't see any reason to believe otherwise.

I think the point Amils are trying to make, if the key and chain aren't literal, why would the pit be literal? That might be like saying----it's raining cats and dogs outside----then asking, if the cats and dogs aren't literal, why would the rain and outside be literal?

On a different note I ran across the funniest thing awhile back, once I started thinking about it.

Amil has satan in prison in the pit for the past 2000 years. With that in mind---

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

That means this passage would be being fulfilled during this same past 2000 years. What that basically adds up to, while this same devil has been cast into prison himself and is still in prison during the thousand years, he is casting others into another prison. It's what it depicts that makes it ludicrous, that while someone has been cast into prison themselves and is still in prison at the time, that they can then somehow cast others into another prison. As if something like that could actually happen. Maybe in the Twilight Zone it could, but in the real world it couldn't, and that one needs to keep in mind, even when imagery is used in the Bible but is not meaning in the literal sense, the imagery involved still has to make logical sense since some of it is based on real world applications.

For example---1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Add to that imagery this----And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him

In a real world application, if a lion has been cast into a pit, and shut up inside of it, it would not while shut up in the pit be walking about, seeking whom it might devour. That is total nonsense. But this is what they have satan doing while he is shut up in the pit, though.

Douggg · Jun 24, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Revelation 9 describes an abyss that is full of wicked spirits that are restrained, but will be released prior to the second coming for a short season. This is something Premils choose to overlook.

I don't think so. I think you are mis-representing what premils like me believe.

The issue is where is Satan right now. In the bottomless pit or not.

Satan now goes about as a roaring lion seeking who he may destroy.

I don't think you have ever addressed that.

DavidPT · Jun 24, 2020

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
Up till now, I had been pondering and keeping in mind the possibility that the star fallen from heaven which was given the key to open the bottomless pit, is Satan - but you have given me more confirmation on this, and what you said not only makes total sense to me, it gave me even more insight. VERY informative post. Thank you.

The other thing to note is that Satan is said to have been the accuser of the brethren and he was in heaven, accusing them before the throne - but they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb. In other words, it's the cross that defeated Satan:

John 12:31-32 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."
John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

Rev 12:10-11 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Luke 10:18 And He (Jesus) said to them, I saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning.

So Satan was defeated at that point. But was he bound at that point?

All the following verses in the New Testament imply that he was not bound at that point:-

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In Rev 13:2, Satan is also the one giving the beast its power and its seat and great authority, after it ascends out of the bottomless pit - and Satan opens the bottomless pit after being given the key.

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and its feet like those of a bear, and its mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him its power and its seat and great authority.

There is a lot of confusion as to whether Satan was cast out of heaven when Christ purchased salvation by his blood, or if he will (still) be cast out of heaven - but I think that we shouldn't assume that when we read of the star (fall or fallen?) from heaven, that the star had not already fallen (past tense) from heaven long before being given the key to the bottomless pit:

The King James version translates it as "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

But the Young's Literal Translation translates it as "And the fifth messenger did sound, and I saw a star out of the heaven having fallen to the earth, and there was given to it the key of the pit of the abyss,"

The Greek words translated as "fall" in the KJV are pipto peto :

G4098 πίπτω πέτω piptō petō pip'-to pet'-o
The first is a reduplicated and contracted form of the second (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to G4072 through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally of figuratively): - fail fall (down) light on.

I'm no Greek expert so I don't know whether the word should be rendered in the past tense (fallen) or in the present tense (fall) - but my understanding leans towards "having fallen" (past tense), as translated in the YLT.

Whatever the case may be, it's not only the Revelation that gives no indication whatsoever that Satan was "bound" when Jesus died:

In the New Testament Paul refers to the Ephesians' old way of life as "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" (Eph 2:2).

In John 14:30 Jesus called Satan "the prince of this world".

In 2 Cor 4:4 Paul refers to "the god of this age that did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;" (Young's Literal Translation).

There is no reason not to assume Paul is referring to Satan in the above verse, and the suggestion implied in Paul's statement is that Satan is even now deceiving the nations.

Peter also warned: 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sensible and vigilant, because your adversary the Devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking someone he may devour;

Altogether, there is therefore an abundance of statements in the gospels, epistles and Revelation that imply that Satan, though defeated when Jesus died, was not bound at that point; but there is nothing to in the New Testament to suggest the contrary unless one chooses to make certain scriptures fit the contrary position - and as you have also pointed out, the angel that comes down with the key to the bottomless pit in Revelation 20, locks Satan up in the bottomless pit at that point.

You make a lot of good points here. One way to try and determine when satan is initially cast to the earth, would be when he is persecuting the woman at the time, since that's what the text has him doing first. As for me, if satan has already been cast to the earth 2000 years ago, or is yet to be cast to the earth, I can live with either one. In the event it's the former, and that these same past 2000 years are supposed to be when satan is in the pit according to most Amils, satan wouldn't be having great wrath while in the pit, thus persecuting someone while in the pit. That doesn't add up. But when it comes to Amil, that's what you typically get a lot of the time, things that don't add up.

To be fair, the same can be said of Premil as well, in certain circumstances, such as animal sacrificing resuming after the 2nd coming. While some Premils indeed believe that, not all Premils believe that, therefore it is not required that someone has to believe that in order to be Premil. Therefore animal sacrificing resuming post the 2nd coming is not a required tenet of Premil.

Ammillennial Return of Christ: by Dr. Sam Storms

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