Why does Trump have to be perfect?

Would you vote for a politician with questionable morality if he perfectly represented your views?

  • Yes

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DaisyDay

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I'm sorry, but anytime the President moves or speaks his detractors are going to have some theory to offer us about him being unfit to be president. You might as well not direct any of them to me.
I'll reply as I see fit, thanks.

Interesting that you admit to being impervious to evidence and argument. I rather suspected as much.
 
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Belk

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That's what Bolton said, apparently. But he also provided no evidence and in fact said flatly that he could not.

In short, the conversations between the leaders could have amounted to almost anything, but only one particular slant would be likely to sell books.

Indeed. Tell us more about how Trump hires dishonest and unethical people to staff high ranking positions... And to be his personal lawyer... and members of his family.
 
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TLK Valentine

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A lot of Democrats have criticized Republicans, particularly those of the conservative religious variety, for supporting Trump, namely because our president’s personal life hasn’t always been consistent with Christ-like conduct.

To give a couple of examples…

- Trump has divorced and remarried multiple times. In Matthew 5:32 Jesus condemns divorce in the strongest possible language, even going so far as to say that remarriage constitutes adultery on the former spouse.

- Trump owned casinos in New Jersey. Far from being harmless entertainment, casinos are actually a well-organized scam to take people’s money. The pay-out rates show that the house always wins, and very few people ever win substantial money. Casinos take advantage of people who want to “get rich quick” but end up taking their money instead, and 1 Thessalonians 4:6 says not to take advantage of people.

Is Trump a Christian? He says he is, and I believe him. Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. This verse applies especially to people like Trump, who seem to fall short of God’s glory more than others due to his conduct. Still, we all need God’s grace no matter how far we have fallen.

But anyway, let’s talk about the point that I want to make…

Trump is a Christian, but he may not be an exemplary one because he has behaved in ways that many people would deem un-Christian. For this reason, many liberals criticize conservative religious people like myself for supporting Trump, since it sort of comes across as hypocritical.

For me personally, I could care less if Trump were an ungodly atheist who didn’t even believe in God in the first place. And if he has been divorced and remarried multiple times, so what? What I believe matters most is that our country have politicians and leaders who represent conservative principles and seek to make America great again.

What about you? Would you vote for a politician with questionable morality but who also perfectly represented your political views and social values? Or do you think a politician’s character matters more than what they want to achieve for society?

Why does Donald "have to be perfect?"

Because Christ demands it. Matthew 5:48

I'm assuming His words still count for something?
 
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Aryeh Jay

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My only requirement for the man who has the Nuclear Football is that he be able to walk down a ramp that meets the Americans with disabilities act standards and to be able to drink water normally.
 
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childeye 2

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What about you? Would you vote for a politician with questionable morality but who also perfectly represented your political views and social values? Or do you think a politician’s character matters more than what they want to achieve for society?
Respectfully, I find your questions to be trick questions, both based on the same false premise.

Please consider that the term "morality" pertains to how we treat our fellow human being according to doing to others what you would want done to you. Subsequently it's not possible that one's moral impetus or lack thereof would not factor into their political and social values and what they want to achieve for society.

To me you're either asserting that it doesn't matter if a presidential candidate is immoral if he does moral things as president wherefore he wouldn't be immoral in the first place, or you're saying it doesn't matter if they're immoral since you like the immoral things they say and do.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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My only requirement for the man who has the Nuclear Football is that he be able to walk down a ramp that meets the Americans with disabilities act standards and to be able to drink water normally.
But what if the ramp is both steep and long and also, very slippery?
 
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Albion

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To me you're either asserting that it doesn't matter if a presidential candidate is immoral if he does moral things as president wherefore he wouldn't be immoral in the first place. Or you're saying it doesn't matter if they're immoral since you like the immoral things he says and does.

If we take another look at the OP, however, we find that the following is his point:

What I believe matters most is that our country have politicians and leaders who represent conservative principles and seek to make America great again.
So that's the basis on which he'll decide. Now he asks his readers this:

What about you? Would you vote for a politician with questionable morality but who also perfectly represented your political views and social values?

The fact is that the other contenders for the Presidency this year--and in most of the preceding elections of recent memory--featured people whose moral standards were clearly not ideal either. Yet they garnered the votes of millions of people who say that morality counts with them, too.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Its hard to imagine Trump really being a Christian. Its not my job to judge but i can discern

Just fyi: Donald has self-identified as a Christian: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ts-could-be-tied-to-being-a-strong-christian/

To say or imply that he is not is against the rules.

None of us are perfect but as Christians we should stand out at least to some extent, from the rest of society

We make mistakes too but we are called upon to apologize, forgive and show integrity

Well, this part we know Donald doesn't do: Trump: 'Why Do I Have to Repent or Ask for Forgiveness If I Am Not Making Mistakes?' (Video)
 
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childeye 2

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If we take another look at the OP, however, we find that the following is his point:

What I believe matters most is that our country have politicians and leaders who represent conservative principles and seek to make America great again.
Respectfully, the above statement from the OP is a circular reasoning. Right away I notice that this poster has, in their subjective view, equated conservative principles with the desire of making America great. We need to have objectivity. Otherwise in a left/right dichotomy the psycho-linguistics create a subjective counter narrative that whosoever is not for conservative principles (whatever that is), is not for making America great. That reveals a circular reasoning confirming a premise by restating the premise. Hence a liberal and their principles are defined through prejudice as not for America by default.

The fact is that the other contenders for the Presidency this year--and in most of the preceding elections of recent memory--featured people whose moral standards were clearly not ideal either. Yet they garnered the votes of millions of people who say that morality counts with them, too.
Overall we should not reason on absolutes in utter disregard to degrees and nuances. Objectivity. We need the sight, to see that the person with the better moral compass only means they are the more trustworthy as pertains to honesty and fairness for all people. It only serves to obscure that point, whether we accuse thinking/saying "They all lie so they're all the same", or whether we excuse thinking/saying "No one's perfect".
 
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Just fyi: Donald has self-identified as a Christian: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ts-could-be-tied-to-being-a-strong-christian/

To say or imply that he is not is against the rules.

[QOTE]
None of us are perfect but as Christians we should stand out at least to some extent, from the rest of society

We make mistakes too but we are called upon to apologize, forgive and show integrity
Well, this part we know Donald doesn't do: Trump: 'Why Do I Have to Repent or Ask for Forgiveness If I Am Not Making Mistakes?' (Video)[/QUOTE]
So were never allowed to discern if someone is a Christian or not? Im not trying to argue here just trying to understand

Perhaps in that case im thinking maybe what your saying is to say someone isnt a Christian would not be discerning, that would be judging
 
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TLK Valentine

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So were never allowed to discern if someone is a Christian or not? Im not trying to argue here just trying to understand

Perhaps in that case im thinking maybe what your saying is to say someone isnt a Christian would not be discerning, that would be judging

Rules are rules. Once someone claims to be a Christian, the matter is settled.
 
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Albion

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Respectfully, the above statement from the OP is a circular reasoning. Right away I notice that this poster has, in their subjective view, equated conservative principles with the desire of making America great.
Well that is his opinion, and he's entitled to have one.

He didn't say that everyone else has to agree with it. He asked his readers, without any preconditions as to whether they saw things the same way as he does or not, to identify the standards by which they will decide whom to vote for. No, that's not circular reasoning at all.
 
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Gene2memE

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"Why does Trump have to be perfect?"

He doesn't. And to say he has to 'Christ-like' or that Democrats are demanding him to be as such is just creating a strawman.

However, and speaking as a non-American here, Trump lacks almost all of the qualities I'd want in one of my leaders.

He's intellectually lazy, ill informed, ill mannered, makes rash decisions, lies continually about even the most trivial and stupid things, is easily angered, petulant/vindictive in defeat and petty in victory, emotionally stunted and above all things a bully and a grifter.

Politically, he's deliberately divisive and acts to harm rather than help.

His politics and economics call back the worst of the extreme forms of the neo-mercantalism of the 1870s and 1880s, European nationalism of the 1920s and US isolationism, nativism and protectionism of the 1930s, as well as notions of US exceptionalism from the 1980.

In international diplomacy, his priorities are normally limited to short term self interest (personal political, national and even legal) without any though for long term consequences.

Speaking as someone who believes that the US has generally and historically been a force for good in the world, watching what he's done to the US standing in the international community has been horrifying. China, and to a lesser extent Russia, have been making hay while the US has isolated itself and alienated traditional allies (Canada, Western Europe, ASEAN and South Pacific states) while Trump has actively moving to dim the light of the US in global diplomacy.
 
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JackRT

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Trump doesn't have to be perfect. I'm willing to overlook some moral flaws. In fact, I was willing to overlook his past womanizing ways. I just would prefer that he not be dangerously delusional. His constant reshaping of reality to suit his whims, his addiction to nutty conspiracy theories, and his fractured sense of logic put all of us at risk.

I would be quite content if he could just rise as high as average.
 
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childeye 2

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Well that is his opinion, and he's entitled to have one.
Well I'm talking facts here. His opinion is based on a circular reasoning.

He didn't say that everyone else has to agree with it.
He didn't say don't inform me that it's a circular reasoning either.

He asked his readers, without any preconditions as to whether they saw things the same way as he does or not, to identify the standards by which they will decide whom to vote for.
I'd like to respectfully point out that the conversation began with me indicating that there were in fact preconditions presented in the questions in the form of loaded questions. The conversation started with me pointing out that both questions share a false premise. That's no assertion by the way. And I even identified it for the person whom you talk as if you think I'm attacking. It should be said that to answer a trick question as presented means to accept the hidden premise as true by default. I therefore felt obligated to say something and I politely pointed out that morality and moral politics are not mutually exclusive.

No, that's not circular reasoning at all.
Respectfully, I think you're mistaken. The circular reasoning I pointed out was not in reference to the questions.
 
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com7fy8

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The short answer for your question is at the bottom of this post . . . below the blue line > * * * * * >
A lot of Democrats have criticized Republicans, particularly those of the conservative religious variety, for supporting Trump, namely because our president’s personal life hasn’t always been consistent with Christ-like conduct.
So . . . if God really considers the unborn to be humans, and therefore it is murder to kill them . . . Jesus might say let the one without sin cast the first stone at Donald.

And if liberals really care about people > how many children are now feeding on the example of smokers so these children will grow up feeling it is cool to smoke . . . so then they could die in torture because of cancer and the American system can be loaded down with the medical bills which will be payed by taxpayers? If, then, liberals really care about having healthy and happy lives and unnecessary taxes, why not obviously promote not smoking so we give our young people this good example?

So, I would say, what most people might say is not the point.

Trump has divorced and remarried multiple times.
And Jesus forgave people, right while they were hating and torturing and murdering Jesus who is God's own Son. So, is our forgiving up-to-date? What does Jesus say will happen if we do not forgive?

For that matter, if we tell wrong people they are ok, this means we are not forgiving them and doing what we can to help them get with God, instead. If we say wrong people don't need forgiveness, this is discrimination against certain ones who need forgiveness like we all do! That is a hate crime, to discriminate against certain wrong people, by saying they are ok and don't need forgiveness > so, again, Jesus might say let the one without sin cast the first stone.

And I must not get self-righteous, for that matter, about people who in fact themselves are hypocritical; but love and care in prayer to bless any and all people, with hope for anyone > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

The pay-out rates show that the house always wins,
What else is new, in business for a profit?

The casinos have to pay their workers and pay property taxes and insurance plus taxes, as well as make a profit. The money they let out is the actual product, and a product costs so much of what you pay to get it.

I don't know how much of a percentage of groceries is the cost of actual product, compared with the cost of profit, insurance, utilities, wages, promotions, and taxes. But the cost of actual grocery product is like to the payback people get in a casino > you pay for the grocery product which is worth less than what you pay, and gamblers pay for the payback which is less than they total they pay :)

So . . . for any product, you could be paying for wages, insurance, utilities, promotion, and taxes, whether you buy money from a casino or food from a grocery store.

So, for me, an interesting question is do you pay a higher percentage to buy casino money, or a higher percentage to buy groceries?? And, for that matter, if you go to a movie or football game or yoga class . . . what percentage are you paying for actual product, versus profit and other items?

people who want to “get rich quick”
"But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition." (1 Timothy 6:9)

The actual gambling isn't the real enemy, but the "desire" is the problem. All a person needs, to get in such deep trouble, is the "desire". There is no need to actually get rich or even to gamble a cent; just desiring to be rich can bring someone into major trouble inside oneself.

all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.
This does not excuse any of us to keep on going wrong. Because if we have trusted in Jesus, we are guaranteed how our Father corrects us > Hebrews 12:4-14. And now, then, we can be an example of how God is correcting us, including telling others how I am being corrected of looking the wrong way at women and self-righteously looking down on politicians who keep being a horrible example of how to relate and communicate . . . potentially helping to ruin children from knowing how to relate in love.

So, even if a public figure's example is anti-love . . . still I need to obey how Jesus has us loving any and all people, and praying with hope for any wrong politician > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7). But will God have me vote for someone whose public example is obviously anti-love and can help destroy children?? God "will judge the secrets of men", our Apostle Paul does say in Romans 2:16; so we will answer for the real reason why we justify voting for the ones we vote for.

And Paul is very clear how a person qualified to lead meets certain qualifications > 1 Timothy 3:1-4 >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, a person who is a Christian will lead by example, including how to communicate and relate in love, caring about any and all people, possibly being an example of God's way of prayer by calling for prayer for any and all people, because this is what a child of God is told to do > "first of all" > 1 Timothy 2:1-4); this includes loving and having hope for our enemies . . . and loving other countries as ourself.

Below is the blue line :)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Would you vote for a politician with questionable morality but who also perfectly represented your political views and social values?
Jesus says,

"'He who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much; and he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much.'" (Luke 16:10)

So, going by this, I would say Jesus means you can't be immoral or a Satanic example or ok with killing unborn Americans and at the same time have the character to take care of over three hundred million people the right way, including with the right example.

But . . . yes . . . God can use . . . anyone for His good, no matter what the person's character. We can read and feed on how God used a pagan leader, in Genesis 37-50. And we have Romans 13:1-7.

So . . . trust God to choose whom He will use.
 
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istodolez

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And if liberals really care about people > how many children are now feeding on the example of smokers so these children will grow up feeling it is cool to smoke . . . so then they could die in torture because of cancer

Smoking is not a "liberal" thing. It is a people thing. Unfortunately.

And Jesus forgave people, right while they were hating and torturing and murdering Jesus who is God's own Son. So, is our forgiving up-to-date? What does Jesus say will happen if we do not forgive?

Good point. We should judge not. But, by the same token, the Religious Right who staunchly support Trump have spent the last 40 years telling us that gay people cause hurricanes and tsunamis, that sin is what is responsible for any given disaster, etc. They have been able to sit in judgement on so many people and they defended it by pointing to their "Sincerely Held Religious Belief"...then when they had the chance to elect someone they supported the person who makes a mockery of their faith.

That might be the bigger point.

So . . . trust God to choose whom He will use.

But what about those of us who hope that it is the VOTERS who choose the President? I understand that you may feel that America was given Trump by God to use as He sees fit, but that also means those who DO support him are not responsible for the things Trump does so abysmally wrong. And things we all knew from the very beginning he was going to do wrong. Trump told us from the beginning what he was and what he was going to do. And the Religious Right still voted for him.

Was there supposed to be a point of "discernment" in there anywhere?
 
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jgarden

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A lot of Democrats have criticized Republicans, particularly those of the conservative religious variety, for supporting Trump, namely because our president’s personal life hasn’t always been consistent with Christ-like conduct.

To give a couple of examples…

- Trump has divorced and remarried multiple times. In Matthew 5:32 Jesus condemns divorce in the strongest possible language, even going so far as to say that remarriage constitutes adultery on the former spouse.

- Trump owned casinos in New Jersey. Far from being harmless entertainment, casinos are actually a well-organized scam to take people’s money. The pay-out rates show that the house always wins, and very few people ever win substantial money. Casinos take advantage of people who want to “get rich quick” but end up taking their money instead, and 1 Thessalonians 4:6 says not to take advantage of people.

Is Trump a Christian? He says he is, and I believe him. Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. This verse applies especially to people like Trump, who seem to fall short of God’s glory more than others due to his conduct. Still, we all need God’s grace no matter how far we have fallen.

But anyway, let’s talk about the point that I want to make…

Trump is a Christian, but he may not be an exemplary one because he has behaved in ways that many people would deem un-Christian. For this reason, many liberals criticize conservative religious people like myself for supporting Trump, since it sort of comes across as hypocritical.

For me personally, I could care less if Trump were an ungodly atheist who didn’t even believe in God in the first place. And if he has been divorced and remarried multiple times, so what? What I believe matters most is that our country have politicians and leaders who represent conservative principles and seek to make America great again.

What about you? Would you vote for a politician with questionable morality but who also perfectly represented your political views and social values? Or do you think a politician’s character matters more than what they want to achieve for society?
Where in the Bible does it teach the doctrine that the ends justify the means - conservative Christians will have the "millstone" of having supported this President around their necks for decades to come, and the world won't be interested in their fancy arguments when it comes to distancing themselves from the worst Commander-in-Chief in American history!
 
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