Jesus is the Archangel Michael??

Someone else gave the knock out combo that,

Colossians 1:15-18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Son of God Is the Same as God
15 No one can see God,
but the Son is exactly like God.
He rules over everything that has been made.
16 Through his power all things were made:
things in heaven and on earth, seen and not seen—
all spiritual rulers, lords, powers, and authorities.
Everything was made through him and for him.

17 The Son was there before anything was made.
And all things continue because of him.
18 He is the head of the body, which is the church.
He is the beginning of everything else.
And he is the first among all who will be raised from death.
So in everything he is most important.

In short, the Son of God created all things including Michael.
The Son of God exists before all created things.
Therefore, the creator is not the created.

For everyone's edification,

"
21. You see how they all foretell the coming of the Lord. You see how they know the voice of the sparrow. Let us know what sort of voice this is. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God. 1 Thessalonians 2:16 The Archangel shall make proclamation and say to all, Arise to meet the Lord. And fearful will be that descent of our Master. David says, God shall manifestly come, even our God, and shall not keep silence; a fire shall burn before Him, and a fierce tempest round about Him, and the rest. The Son of Man shall come to the Father, according to the Scripture which was just now read, on the clouds of heaven, drawn by a stream of fire , which is to make trial of men. Then if any man's works are of gold, he shall be made brighter; if any man's course of life be like stubble, and unsubstantial, it shall be burnt up by the fire. And the Father shall sit, having His garment white as snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. Daniel 7:9 But this is spoken after the manner of men; wherefore? Because He is the King of those who have not been defiled with sins; for, He says, I will make your sins white as snow, and as wool Isaiah 1:18, which is an emblem of forgiveness of sins, or of sinlessness itself. But the Lord who shall come from heaven on the clouds, is He who ascended on the clouds; for He Himself has said, And they shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory Matthew 24:30 .

22. But what is the sign of His coming? Lest a hostile power dare to counterfeit it. And then shall appear, He says, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. Ib Now Christ's own true sign is the Cross; a sign of a luminous Cross shall go before the King , plainly declaring Him who was formerly crucified: that the Jews who before pierced Him and plotted against Him, when they see it, may mourn tribe by tribe Zechariah 12:12, saying, This is He who was buffeted, this is He whose face they spat on, this is He whom they bound with chains, this is He whom of old they crucified, and set at nought. Whither, they will say, shall we flee from the face of Your wrath? But the Angel hosts shall encompass them, so that they shall not be able to flee anywhere. The sign of the Cross shall be a terror to His foes; but joy to His friends who have believed in Him, or preached Him, or suffered for His sake. Who then is the happy man, who shall then be found a friend of Christ? That King, so great and glorious, attended by the Angel-guards, the partner of the Father's throne, will not despise His own servants. For that His Elect may not be confused with His foes, He shall send forth His Angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds. Matthew 24:31 He despised not Lot, who was but one; how then shall He despise many righteous? Come, you blessed of My Father , will He say to them who shall then ride on chariots of clouds, and be assembled by Angels." CHURCH FATHERS: Catechetical Lecture 15 (Cyril of Jerusalem)

Isaiah 12 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
A Song of Praise to God
12 At that time you will say,
“I praise you, Lord!
You have been angry with me,
but don’t be angry with me now.
Show your love to me.
2 God is the one who saves me.
I trust him, and I am not afraid.
The Lord Yah is my strength.
He saves me, and I sing songs of praise about him.[a]”

3 You people will get your water from the spring of salvation.
Then you will be happy.
4 At that time you will say,
“Praise the Lord and call out his name!
Tell everyone what he has done
and how wonderful he is.”
5 Sing songs of praise about the Lord,
because he has done great things.
Spread this news about God throughout the whole world.
Let all people know these things.
6 People of Zion, shout about these things!
The Holy One of Israel is with you in a powerful way.
So sing and be happy!

St. Michael the Archangel


St. Michael is one of the principal angels; his name was the war-cry of the good angels in the battle fought in heaven against the enemy and his followers. Four times his name is recorded in Scripture:

(1) Daniel 10:13 sqq., Gabriel says to Daniel, when he asks God to permit the Jews to return to Jerusalem: "The Angel [D.V. prince] of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me . . . and, behold Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me . . . and none is my helper in all these things, but Michael your prince."

(2) Daniel 12, the Angel speaking of the end of the world and the Antichrist says: "At that time shall Michael rise up, the great prince, who standeth for the children of thy people."

(3) In the Catholic Epistle of St. Jude: "When Michael the Archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses", etc. St. Jude alludes to an ancient Jewish tradition of a dispute between Michael and Satan over the body of Moses, an account of which is also found in the apocryphal book on the assumption of Moses (Origen, De Principiis III.2.2). St. Michael concealed the tomb of Moses; Satan, however, by disclosing it, tried to seduce the Jewish people to the sin of hero-worship. St. Michael also guards the body of Eve, according to the "Revelation of Moses" ("Apocryphal Gospels", etc., ed. A. Walker, Edinburgh, p. 647).

(4) Apocalypse 12:7, "And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon." St. John speaks of the great conflict at the end of time, which reflects also the battle in heaven at the beginning of time. According to the Fathers there is often question of St. Michael in Scripture where his name is not mentioned. They say he was the cherub who stood at the gate of paradise, "to keep the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), the angel through whom God published the Decalogue to his chosen people, the angel who stood in the way against Balaam (Numbers 22:22 sqq.), the angel who routed the army of Sennacherib (2 Kings 19:35).

Following these Scriptural passages, Christian tradition gives to St. Michael four offices:

To fight against Satan.
To rescue the souls of the faithful from the power of the enemy, especially at the hour of death.
To be the champion of God's people, the Jews in the Old Law, the Christians in the New Testament; therefore he was the patron of the Church, and of the orders of knights during the Middle Ages.
To call away from earth and bring men's souls to judgment ("signifer S. Michael repraesentet eas in lucam sanctam", Offert. Miss Defunct. "Constituit eum principem super animas suscipiendas", Antiph. off. Cf. The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III, Similitude 8, Chapter 3).
Regarding his rank in the celestial hierarchy opinions vary; St. Basil (Hom. de angelis) and other Greek Fathers, also Salmeron, Bellarmine, etc., place St. Michael over all the angels; they say he is called "archangel" because he is the prince of the other angels; others (cf. P. Bonaventura, op. cit.) believe that he is the prince of the seraphim, the first of the nine angelic orders. But, according to St. Thomas (Summa Ia.113.3) he is the prince of the last and lowest choir, the angels. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: St. Michael the Archangel

Major1 said:

Jesus is NOT a prince! Jesus is the KING of glory and the Creator of ALL things.

Michael is a created being, created by The God-Man, The Lord Jesus Christ!

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According to Peter, Christ is a prince

Acts of the Apostles 3:15

And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

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Acts of the Apostles 5:31

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

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and his name is the Prince of Peace

Isaiah 9:6

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

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Daniel called him Messiah the Prince

Daniel 9:25

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks

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I said to him, Sir, explain to me what this tree means, for I am perplexed about it, because, after so many branches have been cut off, it continues sound, and nothing appears to have been cut away from it. By this, now, I am perplexed. Listen, he said: This great tree that casts its shadow over plains, and mountains, and all the earth, is the law of God that was given to the whole world; and this law is the Son of God, proclaimed to the ends of the earth; and the people who are under its shadow are they who have heard the proclamation, and have believed upon Him. And the great and glorious angel Michael is he who has authority over this people, and governs them; for this is he who gave them the law into the hearts of believers: he accordingly superintends them to whom he gave it, to see if they have kept the same. And you see the branches of each one, for the branches are the law. You see, accordingly, many branches that have been rendered useless, and you will know them all — those who have not kept the law; and you will see the dwelling of each one. I said to him, Sir, why did he dismiss some into the tower, and leave others to you? All, he answered, who transgressed the law which they received from him, he left under my power for repentance; but all who have satisfied the law, and kept it, he retains under his own authority.
CHURCH FATHERS: The Shepherd of Hermas, Book III

This text by an early church father clearly shows that Michael and the Son of God are separate beings.

Chapter 24. Other Passages Quoted from St. Paul, Which Categorically Assert the Resurrection
of the Flesh at the Final Judgment.
The character of these times learn, along with the Thessalonians. For we read: How you turned from
idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the
dead, even Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 And again: For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of
rejoicing? Are not even you in the presence of our Lord God, Jesus Christ, at His coming? Likewise:
Before God, even our Father, at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, with the whole company of His
saints. 1 Thessalonians 3:13 He teaches them that they must not sorrow concerning them that are
asleep, and at the same time explains to them the times of the resurrection, saying, For if we believe
that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus shall God bring with Him. For
this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of
our Lord, shall not prevent them that are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a
shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the
Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 What archangel's
voice, (I wonder), what trump of God is now heard, except it be, forsooth, in the entertainments of the
heretics? For, allowing that the word of the gospel may be called the trump of God, since it was still
calling men, yet they must at that time either be dead as to the body, that they may be able to rise again;
and then how are they alive? Or else caught up into the clouds; and how then are they here? Most
miserable, no doubt, as the apostle declared them, are they who in this life only shall be found to have
hope”CHURCH FATHERS: On the Resurrection of the Flesh (Tertullian)

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
God’s message regarding those who have died
13-17 Now we don’t want you, my brothers, to be in any doubt about those who “fall asleep” in death, or to grieve over them like men who have no hope. After all, if we believe that Jesus died and rose again from death, then we can believe that God will just as surely bring with Jesus all who are “asleep” in him. Here we have a definite message from the Lord. It is that those who are still living when he comes will not in any way precede those who have previously fallen asleep. One word of command, one shout from the archangel, one blast from the trumpet of God and the Lord himself will come down from Heaven! Those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise, and then we who are still living on the earth will be swept up with them into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And after that we shall be with him for ever.

18 God has given me this message on the matter, so by all means use it to encourage one another.

If the dead are unconscious, they would not be able to hear president trump at the return of Jesus.

just kidding sort of.

"Let us then see what he now also says. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in nowise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the last trump. For then, he says, The powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Matthew 24:29 But wherefore with the trumpet? For we see this on Mount Sinai too, and Angels there also. But what means the voice of the Archangel? As he said in the parable of the Virgins, Arise! The Bridegroom comes. From Matthew 25:6 Either it means this, or that as in the case of a king, so also shall it then be, Angels ministering at the Resurrection. For He says, let the dead rise, and the work is done, the Angels not having power to do this, but His word. As if upon a king's commanding and saying it, those who were shut up should go forth, and the servants should lead them out, yet they do this not from their own power, but from that Voice. This also Christ says in another place: He shall send forth his Angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:31 And everywhere you see the Angels running to and fro. The Archangel therefore I think is he, who is set over those who are sent forth, and who shouts thus: Make all men ready, for the Judge is at hand. And what is at the last trumpet? Here he implies that there are many trumpets, and that at the last the Judge descends. And the dead, he says, in Christ shall rise first. Then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Ver. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children indeed, and those who are worthy to be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see and kiss him; but those of the domestics who have offended remain within. We are carried upon the chariot of our Father. For He received Him up in the clouds, and we shall be caught up in the clouds. Acts 1:9 Do you see how great is the honor? And as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him.

...

When these things then are done, then also will be the voice of the Archangel shouting and commanding the Angels, and the trumpets, or rather the sound of the trumpet. What trembling then, what fear will possess those that remain upon the earth. For one woman is caught up and another is left behind, and one man is taken, and another is passed over. Matthew 24:40-41; Luke 17:34-35 What will be the state of their souls, when they see some indeed taken up, but themselves left behind? Will not these things be able to shake their souls more terribly than any hell? Let us represent then in word that this is now present. For if sudden death, or earthquakes in cities, and threatenings thus terrify our souls; when we see the earth breaking up, and crowded with all these, when we hear the trumpets, and the voice of the Archangel louder than any trumpet, when we perceive the heaven shriveled up, and God the King of all himself coming near — what then will be our souls? Let us shudder, I beseech you, and be frightened as if these things were now taking place. Let us not comfort ourselves by the delay. For when it must certainly happen, the delay profits us nothing.

How great will then be the fear and trembling! Have you ever seen men led away to death? "
CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 8 on First Thessalonians (Chrysostom)

As you can see from my last few posts JW and SDA views about Jesus being Michael are contradicted by those who were within the line of the Apostles direct teachings.

Daniel Marsh said:

Someone else gave the knock out combo that,

Colossians 1:15-18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Son of God Is the Same as God
15 No one can see God,
but the Son is exactly like God.
He rules over everything that has been made.
16 Through his power all things were made:
things in heaven and on earth, seen and not seen—
all spiritual rulers, lords, powers, and authorities.
Everything was made through him and for him.

17 The Son was there before anything was made.
And all things continue because of him.
18 He is the head of the body, which is the church.
He is the beginning of everything else.
And he is the first among all who will be raised from death.
So in everything he is most important.

In short, the Son of God created all things including Michael.
The Son of God exists before all created things.
Therefore, the creator is not the created.

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You have your opinion, I have mine. Michael was just a name that Jesus used pre-incarnation. He is not a created angel, He is the Creator of angels and as such is therefore their leader, their Captain, the angel of the Lord, the archangel---so what? Why get all upset over the names of Jesus----as has been point4ed out---He has many names, this is just another. You do not want that name to be His name---then do not use it. I never use it, I just see that it is Him, also. If you do not wish to believe that---then don't. I see no reason to go on and on and on and on about it!!

What Christological developments there were largely dealt with widespread Arian impulses and a denial of the personhood of the Holy Spirit. Between 1844 and 1890 there was a general move away from a rather classic Arian Christology to a more semi-Arian position. One searches in vain, however, for any really clear cut Athanasian or Nicean developments before the late 1870s. Furthermore, it was only with the events that more immediately preceded and followed the 1888 Minneapolis General Conference Session, that more orthodox Trinitarian developments got underway with noticeable clarity. Arianism, Adventism and Methodism: The Healing of Trinitarian Teaching and Soteriology</b></font></b></font>

Daniel Marsh said:

As you can see from my last few posts JW and SDA views about Jesus being Michael are contradicted by those who were within the line of the Apostles direct teachings.

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You keep trying to lump JW's with SDA---they do not believe that Jesus is God---we do, they do not believe that Jesus was everlasting from eternity, always existsed as God with the Father---we do---they do not believe that Jesus is the creator of all things---we do. What is yopur problem with that? Why can you not tell the difference? It is being very deceptive, misleading --- in a word---lying. Not exactly Christian, is it?

good night all, see you wednesday or friday

Daniel Marsh said:

What Christological developments there were largely dealt with widespread Arian impulses and a denial of the personhood of the Holy Spirit. Between 1844 and 1890 there was a general move away from a rather classic Arian Christology to a more semi-Arian position. One searches in vain, however, for any really clear cut Athanasian or Nicean developments before the late 1870s. Furthermore, it was only with the events that more immediately preceded and followed the 1888 Minneapolis General Conference Session, that more orthodox Trinitarian developments got underway with noticeable clarity. Arianism, Adventism and Methodism: The Healing of Trinitarian Teaching and Soteriology</b></font></b></font>

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There were no SDA before 1866--- the Millerites consited of all sorts of different denominations---Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, as a group they were called Adventists---because they believed that Jesus was coming back---that is the definition of Adventist. Catholics are 1st day Adventists if they believe that Jesus is coming back, all denominations that believe that Jesus is coming back are Adventists. Do you believe that He is coming back? Then you are one also. You do not seem to comprehend the facts of what you post. All the writings of the church state their believes, I do not go by what non-SDA writers have to say about the subject as they have as much knowledge of truth as you do. The writings of the Pioneer SDA's are on record. So if you quote them directly, then there can be some discussion. Those that did not go on to believe as all the SDA's did, were asked to leave. There were some who were members of "secret societies" who had the choice of either staying with the SDA or giving up those societies. You can not have both. Some les than knowledgeable people will insist our pioneers were all sorts of things that they were not.

Daniel Marsh said:

good night all, see you wednesday or friday

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If you must. I do hope you gain some much needed knowledge in the meantime.

Daniel Marsh said:

The early SDA were arains and saw the Son of God as literally begotten or made by the Father.

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Early SDAs believed that just as God made our first-parents Adam and Eve on planet Earth - and in the NT Adam is called the "son of God" -- so also God made other first-parents on other worlds in their own gardens of Eden where they had no parent from their home world ... being created directly by God and each of these prime-parents on each world would be "sons of God" as was Adam.

has nothing at all to do with the fact that it just so happened that a few of them were non-trinitarian.

Unlike Ellen White (a United Methodist) who was trinitarian from the start - as was William Miller and a great many others in that revival-movement of the early to mid-1800's

mmksparbud said:

There were no SDA before 1866--- the Millerites consisted of all sorts of different denominations---Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, as a group they were called Adventists---because they believed that Jesus was coming back---that is the definition of Adventist

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Amen to that.

Some Seventh-day Baptists started winning a few Adventists over to the Bible Sabbath near the end of the 1840's ... the other Adventist beliefs came in over time until the 1860's had a formal organization.

And in 1872 was the first published "statement of beliefs" which had nothing at all in it opposing the Trinity.

Daniel Marsh said:

I guess these are SDA proof texts,

Daniel 10:13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

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Jesus was one of the people on Earth ... yet still fully God.

Heb 1 - "Let all the Angels of God worship Him" -- Jesus

Rev 12 "Michael and HIS angels fought against the dragon and HIS angels"...

Christ is the Captain of the Lord's host of Angels -- "The Angel of the LORD (YHWH)" as we already saw on this thread

Mar 13, 2020 #19

click-it

And on this thread - Mar 22, 2020 #43

Daniel Marsh said:

Here is a simple grammar question for SDA friends here.
SDA reconcile these two texts please

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Nothing to reconcile there -- did you put the wrong texts in your post??