Do Two Jerusalems kill the Premill doctrine?

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jgr

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Sorry but you and I are not part of Daniels ethnos! Nearly all OT prophesies concern Israel, Jerusalem and its 12 tribes. We don't get to magically replace Israel with the Church.

You didn't answer the question.

Are you still unrighteous?

Your denial and rejection of the testimonies of Daniel and Paul leave only one conclusion.

Because you don't get to magically replace the complete and perfect sacrifice and accomplishments of Messiah at Calvary, with dispensational delusion and deception and futurized fantasy and fallacy.

Because dispensational futurism's denial and rejection leave it wallowing in sin and unrighteousness.
 
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7xlightray

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To All..(hi!)..
I noticed you all spent much time in studying, and really know your stuff.
In your pondering of understanding Revelation, have you considered who Revelation
is written to..

Revelation 1:11 What thou seest..send it unto the seven churches
Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus..testify to you these things in the churches.
..or why?
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation [be revealed, appearing, coming] of Jesus Christ
(What and Who the churches have been..
..waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Corinthians 1:7)
For..
Mark 13:32 ..of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven,
neither the Son, but the Father.

..and..
Revelation 5:3 ..no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book,
neither to look thereon.

..so..
Revelation 1:1 ..God gave unto him [Revelation 5:1 I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book..sealed with seven seals, 6 a Lamb as it had been slain, 7 he came and took the
book out of the right hand of him]
, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass
..cause..
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Have you also considered..
Revelation 2:21-22 She repented not..and them that commit adultery with her
..and how God deals with this unrepented sin?

Or this..
Romans 11:25 ..until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 ..There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
..and Revelation 19, then 20 ..that he should deceive the nations no more, till..?
 
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mkgal1

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Now you are starining at gnats. Jerusalem has been rebuilt, even though ancient ruins are still there. Babylon in very very short order could become a practical and vibrant city. And it will once the furor ini the ME subsides.

Infrastructure, buildings are all there.
And the geopolitical modern Jerusalem is not the ancient Jerusalem of the Bible.

This all goes back to the one phrase we're given: "the city where their Lord was crucified "(Revelation 11:8).

Some other contextual phrases that tie in to this same period of time are:

Babylon’s “cup of sin,” her “measure of sin” was full in Revelation 17-18.

Revelation 18:5 ~
For her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes.

Matthew 23:32“Fill up then the measure of your father’s guilt.”

Referring to:

1 Thessalonians 2:15 - ..who having killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and having driven us out, and not pleasing God, are also set against all men


Revelation 6:9-11 - 9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

1 Peter 1:6 - In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in various trials

Luke 18:6-8 ~

6And the Lord said, “Listen to the words of the unjust judge. 7Will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry out to Him day and night? Will He continue to defer their help? 8I tell you, He will promptly carry out justice on their behalf. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on earth.

Revelation 14:1 - Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion


CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEM <------ His justice carried out
 
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BABerean2

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Are you a multiple personality? Who else is the "we". Jerusalem may act like Babylon has (though a city cannot act like anything- only her people) But acting "like" another location, does not warrant a follower of Jesus to declare it is Babylon! Only SCripture can allow us to declare jerusalem is called Babylon in those passages, and it doesn't so neither should we!

And remember that before the Antichrist takes Jerusalem in the mid point of the Tribulation, the seals and six trumpets have happened! He has to have a capitol city somewhere, and the Bible calls it Babylon.


Is earthly Babylon built on seven hills, or mountains?

I knew the Reformers had viewed the Papacy, and Rome as the beast of Revelation.

However, based on the links below, earthly Jerusalem is also built on seven hills.

I did not know this until recently.


The Seven Hills of Jerusalem

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia

Rev 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
Rev 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
Rev 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

.
 
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mkgal1

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nolidad said:
Jerusalem may act like Babylon has (though a city cannot act like anything- only her people) But acting "like" another location, does not warrant a follower of Jesus to declare it is Babylon!
I'm glad you have posted this. That's the point. It's not about a location on the map. It's about a civilization....a specific group of people. These people are identified as the ones that, "killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets" (1 Thessalonians 2:15).

There's a reason for the comparison of the two cities/religious systems (ancientJerusalem/ancientBabylon).
 
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mkgal1

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In your pondering of understanding Revelation, have you considered who Revelation
is written to..
That is a good question - one that is often overlooked.

seven-churches-of-revelation.jpg
 
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jgr

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Nearly all OT prophesies concern Israel, Jerusalem and its 12 tribes.

That must rank as one of the most risibly absurd claims ever appearing on this forum.

The number of prophecies about Messiah and His Life and Ministry at His First Coming far exceeds those about "Israel, Jerusalem and its 12 tribes". Messiah is seen throughout the entirety of the Old Testament. It is all about Him.

But the claim provides instructive insight into the nature of the thinking which characterizes, pervades, and epitomizes the apostate racialist modernist cult of dispensational futurism.
 
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Douggg

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mkgal1

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Neither was responsible for......

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

That's every slain person upon the earth, that's ever been, in every country, of every people.
Jesus said:

Matthew 23:35 - As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar.

Who was He addressing?

36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!
 
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Douggg

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Jesus said:

Matthew 23:35 - As a result, you will be held responsible for the murder of all godly people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar.

Who was He addressing?
Jesus was addressing the pharisees, as the chlldren of the them which killed the prophets..

Matthew 23;31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

So if the pharisees were the children of - who was their father, and who is the them?


John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Babylon the Great is not Jerusalem, nor the Jews, but the kingdom of Satan and his angels - the "them" in Matthew 23:31. Satan convinced a third of the angels to rebel with him.

Who tried to get Jesus to kill himself, on the high place, when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness? Satan did not succeed there. So he went about to have his children do it, the very persons Jesus had called the children of the devil - the pharisees.
_____________________________________________________________

Satan tried to get Jesus to worship him by promising to give Jesus the kingdoms of this world to rule. But Jesus refused. Jesus overcame the world, the flesh, the devil.

It is the same promise apparently Satan used on the original serpent beast [now as a spirit as the beast in the bottomless pit] in the garden to get Adam and Eve to sin - to become like angels, implied, "as gods", projected lie of Satan and his angels....

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

"us" God and .....the angels of heaven. To know that there is a difference between good and evil. But Satan and his crowd of angels had chosen evil of sin.

_________________________________________________________

Satan will use the same motivation, i.e to rule over the kingdoms of the earth, to get the end times person to become as God.

In Ezekiel 28:1-10, the end times revealed man of sin - man of sin - because Satan enters him to carry out the act in 2Thessalonians2:4, therefore called the son of perdition.

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Then to the king of Tyrus, code name for Satan...

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
 
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BABerean2

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I'm glad you have posted this. That's the point. It's not about a location on the map. It's about a civilization....a specific group of people. These people are identified as the ones that, "killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets" (1 Thessalonians 2:15).

There's a reason for the comparison of the two cities/religious systems (ancientJerusalem/ancientBabylon).

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Rev 2:9 "I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.


.
 
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BABerean2

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Or this..
Romans 11:25 ..until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26

Based on the words of Jesus below, the times of the Gentiles comes to fullness at His Second Coming.

Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

.
 
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mkgal1

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In the same way you overlooked my post
I apologize if you feel your post was overlooked. You made several points and I only addressed one. To me, it's a lot to address at once.
 
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mkgal1

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Jesus was addressing the pharisees, as the chlldren of the them which killed the prophets..

Matthew 23;31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

So if the pharisees were the children of - who was their father, and who is the them?


John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Babylon the Great is not Jerusalem, nor the Jews, but the kingdom of Satan and his angels - the "them" in Matthew 23:31. Satan convinced a third of the angels to rebel with him.

Who tried to get Jesus to kill himself, on the high place, when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness? Satan did not succeed there. So he went about to have his children do it, the very persons Jesus had called the children of the devil - the pharisees.
_____________________________________________________________

.
Jesus wasn't casting woes on Satan here:

Matthew 23

29Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of Gehenna?34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.​
 
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Douggg

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36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.
mkgal, that verse is important. It limits the scope, to that generation. I realize that your are partial preterist, but Revelation 18 is still future, as is Satan's destruction. Many, many have been slain upon the earth since 70 ad.

_________________________________________________________

In Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

That is pretty much a scanned over phrase as we leap to the next verse, but it is highly significant, especially when we take a look at the term "the mystery of God" in Revelation 10:7, "as he hath declared to his servants the prophets"

So the mystery of God goes way back - actually to the beginning of creation, the angels and everything.

The beast that carried the woman in Revelation 17, scarlet in color, is obviously Satan. And on her head is the inscription of Msytery Babylon the Great. So from that, we can deduce that there is a mystery of Satan involving Babylon the Great - which his plan is to do what it indicates is his desire in Isaiah 14:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
_____________________________________________________

When we read Revelation, what we are reading about is the conflict between the mystery of God and the mystery of Satan.

God's plan which of course will be victorious is to bring the Kingdom of Heaven here to earth and dismantle, destroy, Satan and his angels kingdom - called Mystery Babylon the Great. And to restore man from the fall in the garden. And to destroy Satan who is at the root of sin, and all that have been slain upon the earth.

The pharisees were implements of the mystery of Satan, part of his plan, no doubt. I am not arguing about that part of your presentation. But they and Jerusalem are not Babylon the Great. Babylon the Great is a code name given to Satan and his angels kingdom holding sway over the nations of the world. When the 7th angel sounds his trumpet, God starts destroying Babylon the Great, and ultimately destroys Satan.
 
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mkgal1

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Douggg said:
Babylon the Great is not Jerusalem, nor the Jews, but the kingdom of Satan and his angels
References to the "Great City":
Revelation 14:8; 16:19; 17:18; 18:10,16,18,19. Identified as Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8)

Babylon was being held responsible for the "blood of the saints" and the "blood of the martyrs of Jesus" (Revelation 17:6; 18:24). Jesus addressed the Scribes and Pharisees and held them responsible for "the murder of all righteous people of all time—from the murder of righteous Abel to the murder of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you killed in the Temple between the sanctuary and the altar." (Matthew 23:35).

Babylon is an apocalyptic description of Old Covenant, apostate Jerusalem and its judgement in 70 AD.
 
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Douggg

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Babylon is an apocalyptic description of Old Covenant, apostate Jerusalem and its judgement in 70 AD.
mkgal, have there been persons slain upon the earth since 70 AD ?
 
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mkgal1

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mkgal, that verse is important. It limits the scope, to that generation.
I completely agree. Absolutely. I'm relieved we agree on that.

I realize that your are partial preterist, but Revelation 18 is still future, as is Satan's destruction. Many, many have been slain upon the earth since 70 ad.
ISTM that belief of a lack of fulfillment of Revelation 18 is at odds with Matthew 23:36.

How can that verse be interpreted as future while recognizing the limitation of its scope of time?

I can recognize that many many more righteous people have been slain since 70 AD (that belief isn't mutually exclusive from the belief that Revelation 18 is fulfilled)......but we are under the New Covenant now. The New Covenant brings life.....not wrath and death.
 
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mkgal1

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mkgal, have there been persons slain upon the earth since 70 AD ?
Of course.

What passage is causing you to believe that the events of 70 AD (or the fulfilment of Revelation 18) would put an end to that?

ETA: Ah....I think I'm following you now. You're referring to "Satan's destruction "....correct? Sin hasn't been eradicated yet. That's a topic I need to give more thought to.
 
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