The Olivet Discourse

parousia70 said:

If what you say is true, HOW did the Father COME and Destroy them? What did His Coming look like?
What evidence do you have that the father did indeed COME and destroy them?
Who saw God the Father "Come" and do that?
And Who is the Chief Corner Stone that Fell on them and Ground them to dust, and what did that look like??
Were the Chief Priests wrong in understanding that Jesus' parable spoke of THEM?

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace said:

The vineyard owner is the Father, not Jesus! The Father intervened immediately with the earthquake and the ripping of the curtain in two. This was the start of the fulfilment! The culminating judgment fulfilment will be when He banishes them to the lake of fire on judgment day.

That prediction in Matthew 21:33-41 relates to God the Father pouring out His wrath upon Christ-rejecting Israel (in vengeance on those who rejected and killed His Son) throughout the intra-Advent, right up to (and including) Christ's coming and the final judgement.

Click to expand...

sovereigngrace said:

No man has seen the Father, but the Son.

John 1:18 records: “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Jesus said in John 5:37: “And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.”

Jesus testified in John 6:46: “Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.”

1 John 4:12 teaches: “No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.”

We see that through the various judgments of Father throughout the OT. But many have seen Christ. When He comes again every eye shall see Him.

Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Acts 1:10 says, “while they (the disciples) beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven that will be the way He will return. How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld, he was taken up” - “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Click to expand...

I'm trying to comprehend your understanding of Matthew 21:33-46 (parable of the wicked tenants).

At times you seem to agree that the destruction of the Temple had something to do with this parable.....but seem to be having trouble reconciling the mention of the Father being the landowner.....with no one ever seeing the Father, except the Son....and your belief that this has to do with a future to us, literal appearance of Jesus. Is that a fair assessment? I'm not sure you've reconciled those issues in this conclusion.....because I don't see how (going by your reasoning that it is key that the landowner is the Father) you are allowing for a future coming of God the Father (or are you meaning that the destruction of Jerusalem *was* a coming of God)?

sovereigngrace said:

If it was obsolete and decaying during that period as the Bible says why are you defending it as being alive and active?

Click to expand...

I never used those words (alive and active).

What I've said is that Paul had written there was a purpose....a usefulness. Just as the Law....the Torah....the first 5 books of the Bible had always been purposed for - it was the "schoolmaster" or "tutor" to bring the 1st century Jews to Christ.

Christian Gedge said:

Is this a typo?

Click to expand...

No

Christian Gedge said:

OK, but as a precursor to a yet future abomination.

Click to expand...

I disagree.

Do you believe Jesus birth is a precursor to a future Jesus Birth

Christian Gedge said:

OK, but as a precursor to a yet future tribulation.

Click to expand...

I disagree.

Do you believe Jesus birth is a precursor to a future Jesus Birth

Christian Gedge said:

And he is still waiting.

Click to expand...

I disagree. I believe Peter is in heaven.

Christian Gedge said:

So it was written prior to AD 70. Prior to our solar system “disappearing with a roar” too.

Click to expand...

I don't believe the removal of heavens and earth is literal. I believe it allegorical.

Christian Gedge said:

Indeed! That why AD 30 was the apex of history.

Click to expand...

Amen to that!

Christian Gedge said:

That’s why Im not a partial preterist. The Old Covenant system was removed in AD 30 lock, stock, and barrel. Your focus on the AD 70 event distracts from a broad understanding of the Parousia in the same way as Dispensationalists focus on a future seven years. So, my view is that Christ’s comings are a sweep of history, ending with a new Heavens (solar system) and a new Earth, as described by Peter and by the prophets.

Click to expand...

Old covenant system was not removed. It was made obsolete but was still present, and had not yet vanished as stated in scripture:

Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant,c He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Jesus often mentioned the destruction of Jerusalem in relation to the kingdom, are we just supposed to ignore that?

claninja said:

I am in agreement that scripture is not contradictory.

But this doesn't address that Peter stated the end of the all things was "at hand". Obviously that wasn't the physical earth.

Click to expand...

Where neo-Full Preterists get mixed up is that they see the coming of Titus in AD70 as the apex of history and the climactic coming of Christ. The rest of us see Christ's one final literal physical coming of Christ in the future as the end of this age, the end of time, the end of corruption,

To attribute the coming of Titus in AD70 in 1 Peter 4:3-7 as the "end of all things" is laughable, unbiblical and irrational. It states: “the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand.”

Peter continues in verse 13 of the same passage, whilst speaking of that great final event, by encouraging the believers, saying, “rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”

Peter informs us that “end of ALL things” occurs at the Second Advent – the time when Christ shall judge “the quick and the dead” (or the living and the dead). Moreover, he indicates, whilst the day of revelation of Christ is an awful day of woe for the wicked, it is a day of joy and reward for the righteous. Notwithstanding, and significantly, the judgment of the wicked and “the end of ALL things” is said to be “at hand” or ‘eengiken’ meaning ‘to be near’ or ‘approaching.’ Notably, it is from the usage of this word that the Pretribbers argue for an imminent secret return of Christ rather than an impending all-consummating final return, as is biblical. Notwithstanding, whether one understands the term “at hand” as imminent or impending isn’t particularly important here, it is the fact that the judgment of the wicked coincides with the one final future all-consummating Second Advent. Also, the clear allusion of the judgment of “the living and the dead” unquestionably proves a general judgment as the A and Postmillennialists believes.

The second coming is all-consummating and ushers in the complete end of all things old, temporal, sinful and corrupt. His return introduces the beginning of all things new, eternal, righteous and God-glorifying.

In the new heavens and new earth there is going to be no more grief, grave stones or goodbyes. There is coming a day in the future when dying, crying, pain, sorrow and the curse will cease. Or put differently, there is going to be no sea, no sepulchers, no sorrow, no suffering. All the awful effects of sin have finally and eternally been expunged, namely death, disease, disaster, disappointment, depression, and despair. All things are now new.
Preterists make much of phrases like “at hand,” “quickly,” “shortly” or “near.” They try and use them to support their belief that Jesus has already come, the last day has already occurred and that we are now living in the new heavens and new earth.

But such terms are totally relative. Our knowledge of biblical truth, our awareness of the context in question, a study of the meaning and usage of the original Greek words, and our ascertaining whether something is being explained from man’s finite perspective or God’s eternal perspective, aid us in understanding the time and event in view.

On this matter, a basic understanding of "time" and "eternity" will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It carries the same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word.

sovereigngrace said:

That prediction in Matthew 21:33-41 relates to God the Father pouring out His wrath upon Christ-rejecting Israel (in vengeance on those who rejected and killed His Son) throughout the intra-Advent, right up to (and including) Christ's coming and the final judgement.

Click to expand...

So.....you're saying God has been continually pouring out His wrath upon Israel.....beginning when? And how?

Because I see this (which was AFTER the Cross - but before the fulfillment of Pentecost.....that had to have been fulfilled, as per Jesus):

***Really the entire chapter should be read in context, but for the sake of space:

mkgal1 said:

I never used those words (alive and active).

What I've said is that Paul had written there was a purpose....a usefulness. Just as the Law....the Torah....the first 5 books of the Bible had always been purposed for - it was the "schoolmaster" or "tutor" to bring the 1st century Jews to Christ.

Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.​

Click to expand...

You are mixing up the moral law and the ceremonial law. Two different things. The moral law is still alive and active, but cannot save. It can only expose, convict and point people to Christ - man's redeemer. The ceremonial law is dead and gone since Christ's atoning death on the cross.

mkgal1 said:

So.....you're saying God has been continually pouring out His wrath upon Israel.....beginning when?

Because I see this (which was AFTER the Cross - but before the fulfillment of Pentecost.....that had to have been fulfilled, as per Jesus):

***Really the entire chapter should be read in context, but for the sake of space:

Acts 2:33-41 ~
Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
35Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

’i36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”40With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day.j​

Click to expand...

The wrath of God is always upon the wicked (and all wickedness).

Colossians 3:6 says, “the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience.”

Ephesians 5:5-6 says, “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.”

Jesus said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Romans 5:9-10 says, “being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 says, “For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

As Paul says in Romans 1:18, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.”

sovereigngrace said:

You are mixing up the moral law and the ceremonial law. Two different things. The moral law is still alive and active, but cannot save. It can only expose, convict and point people to Christ - man's redeemer. The ceremonial law is dead and gone since Christ's atoning death on the cross.

Click to expand...

I'm not certain about that (nor am I proposing I have this all figured out). The Law isn't a list of ordinances.....it is the Torah... the Ancient Hebrew Scriptures that contains words of the prophets.

What I know is that Jesus taught that until all was accomplished that was spoken of Him in the Law and from the prophets......heaven and earth (in covenant language) would not pass away (Matthew 5:18). So either the Old Covenant is lingering still...........or all has been accomplished from what was written about Jesus in the ancient Hebrew Scriptures/words of the prophets.

We know that the words of the prophet Joel and the Feast of Pentecost wasn't fullfilled until after His Ressurection (perfectly 50 days after Passover......as it lines up with the calendar of Feasts).

Acts 2:16-21:
But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’


(rest of Peter's speech is here ------>Acts 2 NKJV)

claninja said:

Yes

Did Christ put away sin at the cross and is Daniel 9:26 fulfilled?



Physical : Yes
Spiritual: No for the believer



Yes

Does God wipe away our tears currently or only in the future?

Are tears of Joy allowed in heaven?



Yes

Does God heal our pain?



Yes

Did Christ bare our sorrows and grief on the cross?

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.

Does the good news turn your sorrows to Joy?



Which curse?



No, as the ministry of death is no longer in place.




Yes, on earth.

No, in heaven.



When our earthly tent is destroyed

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

2 Corinthians 5:1 1For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens



Which moment?



No.



Not necessarily



Not in all cases.



Not necessarily.

From Strong's in regards to the greek word for earth:

" a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region; simply, when it is plain from the context what land is meant, as that of the Jews: Luke 4:25; Luke 21:23;"



It's interesting that you can believe when a person is released from the letter of the law, and born again, they are a new creation, but when the earth was released from the bondage of the law, its not new.

Click to expand...

As much as you want to make AD70 the central pivotal point of history, it is not. The cross was that. That is when the old covenant terminated and was replaced by the new covenant. The second coming in the future is the final closure of history and every enemy of righteousness.

You do not seem to understand the difference between our standing and our state, or our position and our condition. These are general accepted evangelical truth. Or, you are deliberately trying to distort these in order to support Preterist error.

Let me try and explain:

· Your standing (or position) is how God sees you “in Christ.” You are perfect and complete because you traded your filthy garments for Christ’s perfect righteousness. Colossians 2:10 tells us: “ye are complete in him.”
· Your state (or condition) refers to where you are in the sanctification process. It describes how you are gradually being conformed to the image of Christ through the internal work of the Holy Spirit and the ongoing work of the Word of God. This is an imperfect incomplete work as long as you are in this fallen body. Paul testifies in Romans 7:24-25: “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Our standing can never change, it cannot improve or decline, however, our state is constantly changing. The longer we are on this earth the more we should be maturing in Christ. This involves a process of purging and refining – essentially cutting away that which relates to our flesh. This is theologically called sanctification. This is us becoming more like Christ as we cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 21:1-3 says, of the period preceding the millennium/Satan’s little season, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

Revelation 21:4-5 (a time relating to after the millennium), which says, “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

This reading describes the occasion that witnesses the termination of sin / sickness / suffering / death / all decay. But when is it speaking of? Is it speaking of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ or 1,000 years+ after the Second Advent?

When Scripture speaks of a time when “all things” shall be finally and wholly brought into complete subjection of Christ, it is unquestionably speaking of the future. However, whether that is at the second coming (as Amils and Postmils believe) or 1,000 years after the second coming (as Premils believe) can only be safely proved by explicit Scripture. Whilst every sane believer accepts that Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness and the kingdom of God at the Cross, they also recognise that all these defeated foes continue to exist and have not therefore been brought into final and complete subjection of God.

We know that Satan, his minions and the whole kingdom of darkness have all already been defeated at the Cross, although they still continue to manifest. Sin, sickness, death and decay have also been fully defeated at the Cross, even though they still manifestly exist. The whole of creation is also on a downward journey of decay even though Christ is able at any time to reverse that great decline.

We know at present that even though Christ has defeated every enemy of righteousness at the Cross, there are many facets of the kingdom of darkness that have been given a season in which to operate – this is the intra-Advent period we currently live. However, whilst many things are being brought into subjection of Christ in this period, we have not arrive at the time when “all things” will be brought into that.

Philippians 3:20-21 declares, “For our conversation (or citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able (or, canst) hupotáxai (Strong’s 5293) (or) subdue (or subordinate) all things unto himself.”

Paul identifies the time of the subduing or subordinating of “all things unto himself” with the occasion of the second coming, which expressly sees the final act of redemption and the fulfilment of the glorification process. This is unquestionably the conclusion of history – the “times of restitution (or reconstitution) of all things.”

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 says: “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when ‘he shall have delivered up’ (present active subjunctive) the kingdom to God, even the Father; when ‘he shall have put down’ (aorist active subjunctive) all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him (speaking of the second coming), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:25-28).

Firstly, the usage of the word “for” in this reading simply tells us that what follows is a deduction drawn from what has previously been stated. The repeated usage of the word “for” in this reading demonstrates what is being spoken of is an inference to what has just been stated. In this particular passage, the Greek word gar links and then further expands upon the fact that the Second Advent is the time “when he (Christ) shall have (finally) put down all rule and all authority and power.” The Greek word ‘gar’, which interprets and carries the same meaning as our English word “for” is used as a key constituent part of the previous statement or subject matter, to simply allocate a fuller enlargement or reinforcement of the matter just mentioned. The word is mainly used for the purpose of argument, explanation or intensification.

Christ, the OT prophets and the NT writers repeatedly enlarge on a truth or recap a matter when relaying truth. This is a common way of teaching. That is all Paul is doing here. After explaining the finality of the second coming he then explains that he will reign until the last enemy is subdued.

Even though it might not seem it at times, God has got his providential hand on our lives. Moment by moment he watches over us. With a Father’s eye He sovereignly brings circumstances and situations into our lives at the right time in order to conform us unto His purposes. When we disobey, He takes the rod of correction to the seat of our understanding.

sovereigngrace said:

The wrath of God is always upon the wicked (and all wickedness).

Click to expand...

I'm asking for your interpretation of how you believe this is about God continually pouring out His wrath on Israel (if I'm understanding you correctly). And I asked for when you believe this began. I need your words for that - as it is an interpretation that belongs to you.

sovereigngrace said:

The wrath of God is always upon the wicked (and all wickedness).

Click to expand...

We are all sinners.

The verse I cited from Acts 2 described Peter's speech that addressed those that called for the death of Christ in 30 AD ("whom you crucified" v 36). Did you notice that they repented....and were promised the gift of the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't you say that is the height of "wickedness ", to crucify God incarnate?

mkgal1 said:

I'm not certain about that (nor am I proposing I have this all figured out).

What I know is that Jesus taught that until all was accomplished that was spoken of Him in the Law and from the prophets......heaven and earth (in covenant language) would not pass away (Matthew 5:18). So either the Old Covenant is lingering still...........or all has been accomplished from what was written about Jesus in the ancient Hebrew Scriptures/words of the prophets.

We know that the words of the prophet Joel and the Feast of Pentecost wasn't fullfilled until after His Ressurection (perfectly 50 days after Passover......as in the calendar of Feasts).

Acts 2:16-21:
But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’


(rest of Peter's speech is here ------>Acts 2 NKJV)

Click to expand...

He kept the moral Law perfectly as He had to. He had to live that life we could never keep so that man could be free, conquer sin, death, Hades and Satan. Those who are "in Christ" are therefore not judged by the law, as they have put their faith in the law-keeper. Christ consequently fulfilled the ceremonial Law and abolished it through His sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrection.

mkgal1 said:

We are all sinners.

Click to expand...

Born again believers are not defined by their sin but by their sin bearer. They are "in Christ."

The verse I cited from Acts 2 described Peter's speech that addressed those that called for the death of Christ in 30 AD ("whom you crucified" v 36). Did you notice that they repented....and were promised the gift of the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't you say that is the height of "wickedness ", to crucify God incarnate?

Click to expand...

Please explain what you are trying to say. I do not understand your point.

mkgal1 said:

I'm asking for your interpretation of how you believe this is about God continually pouring out His wrath on Israel (if I'm understanding you correctly). And I asked for when you believe this began. I need your words for that - as it is an interpretation that belongs to you.

Click to expand...

The wrath of God is upon the individual. However, when Jesus comes His wrath will be poured out on all mankind that is not saved and none shall escape.

sovereigngrace said:

He kept the moral Law perfectly as He had to. He had to live that life we could never keep so that man could be free, conquer sin, death, Hades and Satan. Those who are "in Christ" are therefore not judged by the law, as they have put their faith in the law-keeper. Christ consequently fulfilled the ceremonial Law and abolished it through His sinless life, His atoning death and glorious resurrection.

Click to expand...

It seems that you are missing my point.

"Fulfilling" the words of the Law and the Prophets =/= "keeping the moral Law perfectly"

As a few examples of Christ fulfilling the words of the Law and the prophets:

Christ fulfilled the words of Isaiah 53.......as the "suffering servant".

Christ fulfilled the words of God's covenant with David II Samuel 7 and I Chronicles 17....as the eternal king/High Priest on David's throne

Christ fulfilled the covenant God made with Abraham.....recorded in Genesis 17:6 and Genesis 49:10....as the "seed of Abraham"

Christ fulfilled the Feast of Passover as the "lamb" on the Cross

Christ fulfilled Pentecost (Lev 23:15-21) as the High Priest accepting the "first fruits" (Acts 2 - 50 days after the Resurrection)

This is what I believe is true:
Quoting from link: the events at Sinai typologically parallel those of Pentecost. Just as Moses the Prophet ascended to the summit of Mount Sinai (Exod. 19:20) to receive the Ten Commandments (Exod. 34:28), Jesus Christ, the Prophet like Moses (Deut. 18:15; cf. Acts 3:22; 7:37), ascended to the heavenly Mount Zion (Heb. 12:22) to ‘receive’ the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:33).[8] Whereas the Decalogue was written by the finger of God (Exod. 31:18) on tablets of stone (Exod. 24:12; 2 Cor. 3:7), God’s law was ‘written’ upon believers’ hearts (Jer. 31:33; 2 Cor. 3:3; Heb. 8:10) by the Spirit of God (Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27).[9] Just as Moses interceded for Israel before God (Exod. 32:11-18; 33:12-23), Christ Jesus, our παράκλητον (paraklēton – “advocate;” cf. 1 John 2:1), intercedes for us before His Father (Rom 8:34; 1 John 2:1). Whereas as Moses descended Mount Sinai with the Ten Commandments (Exod. 32:15; 34:29) and placed them within the Tabernacle (Exod. 40:20-21), the Holy Spirit, our other παράκλητος (paraklētos – cf. John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7) who also intercedes for us (cf. Rom. 8:26-27), ‘descended’ the heavenly Mount Zion and ‘wrote’ God’s law upon the heart of believers (Jer. 31:33), whose bodies are now temples for the indwelling Holy Spirit (Ezek. 36:26-27; 1 Cor. 6:19). Just as the Tabernacle was constructed (Exod. 36:1-40:33) after the giving of the Law by the Spirit-filled Bezalel and Oholiab (Exod. 35:30-35) and also served as a location in which Yahweh dwelt (Exod. 40:34-38), the Church was formed by the outpouring of the Spirit and serves as “God’s temple” (1 Cor. 3:16), “a dwelling of God in the Spirit” (Eph. 2:22).[10] ~ How did Christ Jesus fulfill the Feast of Pentecost? (Feasts, #6) | Providence Theological Seminary Blog

sovereigngrace said:

Please explain what you are trying to say. I do not understand your point.

Click to expand...

You had posted:

sovereigngrace said:

The wrath of God is always upon the wicked (and all wickedness).

Click to expand...

.....and I shared the passage from Acts 2.....Peter's speech to the 1st century Jews. Peter identifies his audience when he is recorded as saying (would you not consider those who crucified Christ the height of wickedness? Yet, notice, God offered even them forgiveness upon their repentance). This obviously occurred AFTER the Cross - 50 days after His resurrection:

What I've been trying to understand is this quote of yours about your interpretation of the parable of the wicked tenants. I wonder *when* this began (in YOUR belief and interpretation. I'm not asking for Scripture). You posted that you believe it *ends* at His future return (in your belief).....but I am wondering when you believe this *began*?:

mkgal1 said:

It seems that you are missing my point.

"Fulfilling" the words of the Law and the Prophets =/= "keeping the moral Law perfectly"

As a few examples of Christ fulfilling the words of the Law and the prophets:

Christ fulfilled the words of Isaiah 53.......as the "suffering servant".

Christ fulfilled the words of God's covenant with David II Samuel 7 and I Chronicles 17....as the eternal king/High Priest on David's throne

Christ fulfilled the covenant God made with Abraham.....recorded in Genesis 17:6 and Genesis 49:10....as the "seed of Abraham"

Christ fulfilled the Feast of Passover as the "lamb" on the Cross

Christ fulfilled Pentecost (Lev 23:15-21) as the High Priest accepting the "first fruits" (Acts 2 - 50 days after the Resurrection)

Click to expand...

The prophets are different from the Law. Jesus repeatedly distinguished between them.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

mkgal1 said:

What I've been trying to understand is this quote of yours about your interpretation of the parable of the wicked tenants. I wonder *when* this began (in YOUR belief and interpretation. I'm not asking for Scripture). You posted that you believe it *ends* at His future return (in your belief).....but I am wondering when you believe this *began*?:

​

Click to expand...

There are two parts to the parable. There are the wicked husbandmen that represent apostate Judaism. There are the righteous husbandmen that represent the New Testament Church. I believe the parable symbolically links the judgment of the wicked servants to Israel’s ongoing intra-Advent judgment, including AD70. I believe the parable also symbolically links the blessing of the righteous servants to the ongoing intra-Advent evangelism of the nations.

The letting out God’s vineyard to “other husbandmen” relates to the Gospel reaching out to the Gentiles. It is talking about the period following Christ's defeat of sin, death and Satan, which included when He appeared unto the disciples for 40 days and prepared then for their empowerment at Pentecost to fulfill the great commission. It was definitely before AD70.

The great moment in history that witnessed the actual outward commencement of the vast global assault upon the blinded nations occurred after Peter’s supernatural vision in Acts chapter 10. Peter’s vision of the sheet full of unclean animals in Acts 10:10–16 signified how God made no distinction under the new covenant between the Gentile and Jewish hearers. From Acts 10 (and the incident at Cornelius’ house) the Gospel was released unto the darkened heathen in a significant way. They would now be brought from darkness of paganism unto the light of Christ and His Gospel.

sovereigngrace said:

The prophets are different from the Law. Jesus repeatedly distinguished between them.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
.Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree, but that doesn't discredit what I have said that Jesus said He would fulfill the Law and the words of the prophets. In fact.....that is sort of my point when I wrote:


The Law (as I understand) is also known as the Pentateuch.....the first 5 books of the Hebrew Scripture. The words of the prophets: The major and minor prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, and Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi). Moses' sister Miriam is called a prophet in Exodus 15:20....Deborah is also in Judges 4:4.....and Huldah is called a prophet in 2 Kings 22:14-20....so, ISTM, their words that testified of Christ the Messiah would also have to be included.