What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

OldWiseGuy said:

No surprise there as the Flood would only have left evidence of local flooding.

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Right - global flood = only local flood evidence.

Makes perfect sense.

To someone not interested in being taken seriously.

Paul James said:

I have seen in other posts that evolution is said to be just a fairy tale trying to explain what might have happened, and I have not seen any posts giving proof that it is otherwise.

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Spectacularly shallow claim. You should probably start here:

Welcome to Evolution 101!

SLP said:

Then you are just easily amused, not a scientific thinker at all.

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I do think scientifically sometimes. I muse over all the carbon lying around turning into co2 (dead trees decomposing above ground) that could be easily sequestered. Such trees are about one-half carbon (that's a lot of carbon going into the air). Of course this isn't glamorous enough for most scientists (no grants, or papers published, etc).

I'm actually doing my part. I saved this wood from 'burning' biologically without providing any human benefits. I'll will burn it 'chemically' this winter in my fireplace (a little 'scientific' lingo there).





I also think scientifically about our dirty lakes. While 'true' scientists piddle around in the watersheds I would vigorously harvest the lake weeds and remove any carp. This would reduce the fertility of the sediments and the water column, and provide some great compost. Very 'scientific', but not very appealing to the 'true' scientists as this would end their feeding at the public trough by solving the problem.

I have other useful scientific thoughts as well, however none of them involve the usual 'litmus test' of belief in the ToE.

SLP said:

Right - global flood = only local flood evidence.

Makes perfect sense.

To someone not interested in being taken seriously.

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There is ample evidence of global flooding. However there isn't, and cannot be, evidence of a single global flood. It's 'scientifically' impossible.

SLP said:

How is it that you think that counts as a scientific model?

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My, but you are one mad dude.

Here's what I'd like to know....
WHY are you so mad?

What do you care if I choose to believe in God?
It's your right NOT to believe He exists....do Christians bother YOU about YOUR belief system?
No.
So why do you get so upset at those of the human race that prefer to believe that some being must have created everything we see, rather than believe that all this came from nothing?

As to the O.P. and what we need to do....
We need to do NOTHING.

As you must surely know...God cannot be proven nor can he be disproven.

He's like the wind...
You can't see it,,,but you see its effects.

So, the question remains,,,WHY are you so upset with these silly christian folk?

pitabread said:

Come up with a scientific theory that has equivalent or better explanatory* power for the origin and diversity of species on Earth, and equivalent or better application in fields of applied biology.

Until creationists can do that, everything else is irrelevant.

*(And for the record, "God made stuff" isn't an explanation.)

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So here's the thing: The primary evidence that Christians have that God is real and that Christians alone have Him is spiritual, and only those to whom God chooses to reveal Himself and to give His Spirit will know this.

The fact that He hasn't done this for most people doesn't make Him a figment of the imagination of those for whom He has, anymore than someone's ignorance or rejection of any other truth or reality makes it untrue or unreal.

Without the Spirit of God human beings can't truly know or understand spiritual truths, among which are the truths about Earth's creation which science seems to defy or refute.

The reason we know that what the Bible says about the creation of the universe, and about everything else, past, present and future, is true is that according to what God says that He does in His word, He has given us His Spirit. Therefore we know that God is true and that His word is true.

Everything that presently seems to disprove God's word or His existence will ultimately be revealed as a delusion and a lie (and all the nations will mourn in dismay).

The same God who is able to send a strong delusion on all of the human beings who reject Jesus Christ so that they will believe that the antichrist is God and will worship him is also able to thwart the understanding of the most intelligent and knowledgeable scientific minds.

Or are you greater than the God who created the mind in which you trust and the spirit you don't even believe you have? (I'm speaking to those to whom this applies.)

The person whom God gives faith has all the evidence he needs that everything God says is true, no matter what contradicts it. And the person whose mind and heart God chooses to harden will never be convinced of the truthfulness of His word no matter what evidence might surround or be presented to him by God or man.

That is why my answer to atheists and agnostics is that they need to humbly and sincerely ask God to reveal Himself to them and to show them the truth, because He is truly the only one who can. It is humanly impossible to do something that God has not allowed.

Even if a Christian apologist is able to win a debate with an atheist with facts and logic alone, if the atheist goes away still spiritually hardened, what has the apologist accomplished?

"God made it" is a perfectly valid explanation for why all things exist and sustain. It's just not an explanation that spiritually hardened people can accept.

(Also, explaining how something works is not the same as explaining how it came into existence or why it exists. "Creationism" doesn't make the nature or mechanisms of what exists any less complex than they are, it only gives a simple explanation for why they are. Simple doesn't mean inferior unless the simple explanation is untrue.

Wrong theories can be very complex, but they're still wrong.)

SLP said:

Then you are just easily amused, not a scientific thinker at all.

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The above is not for me...
but WHY MUST I be a scientific thinker?

Are scientists the only intelligent person on the face of the earth?

pitabread said:

That's nice, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic. This isn't a discussion of atheism vs Christianity.



Except "God made it" doesn't actually explain anything.



Which is precisely why creationism is a religious belief and not science. Science explains the how. If creationism cannot offer up an explanation for "how", then it can never replace scientific explanations that do explain the "how".

And the current explanation for the "how" of the diversity of life on Earth is the Theory of Evolution.

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It has everything to do with the subject of the thread. The theory of evolution is fundamentally opposed to what the Bible states about how the universe was created. (Christians who attempt to blend the two are misguided. It's very much an either or situation.)

Mind you, when I refer to evolution I am specifically referring to the theory of change of kind, not to adaptations within species.

And the reason that evolutionists reject "creationism" is because they don't believe that what God says is true. If they did, they would realize that the "evidence" that "proves" that the Biblical account of creation is false is not what they believe it is.

The only thing that discovering more about the complexity of what God created with His word in six days proves is the awesome intelligence and power of the Creator, which is the reason He gave us a mind to desire and be able to study it.

Unfortunately, because of our natural spiritual blindness and antipathy towards God, our minds alone are not enough to lead us to the knowledge of God; He has to intervene supernaturally to reveal Himself to man.

Nothing comes from nothing. At the beginning of all of the what is the Who of the how and the why.

pitabread said:

That's nice, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic. This isn't a discussion of atheism vs Christianity.

Except "God made it" doesn't actually explain anything.

Which is precisely why creationism is a religious belief and not science. Science explains the how. If creationism cannot offer up an explanation for "how", then it can never replace scientific explanations that do explain the "how".

And the current explanation for the "how" of the diversity of life on Earth is the Theory of Evolution.

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Just a few comments:

1. I agree with you 100%.
Religion is not meant to explain HOW but to explain WHY. The how should be left up to science. (but we're not getting answers as to the ORIGIN of life).

2. God made everything IS an explanation. But one would have to believe that God exists.

3. I'm starting to wonder why those that do not believe in God are so obsessed by this idea. Richard Dawkins said, in an interview that I heard mysefl, that religion has to be eradicated from the world.
I just don't understand why he, and others, feel this way.

OldWiseGuy said:

I do think scientifically sometimes. I muse over all the carbon lying around turning into co2 (dead trees decomposing above ground) that could be easily sequestered. Such trees are about one-half carbon (that's a lot of carbon going into the air). Of course this isn't glamorous enough for most scientists (no grants, or papers published, etc).

I'm actually doing my part. I saved this wood from 'burning' biologically without providing any human benefits. I'll will burn it 'chemically' this winter in my fireplace (a little 'scientific' lingo there).

View attachment 277687



I also think scientifically about our dirty lakes. While 'true' scientists piddle around in the watersheds I would vigorously harvest the lake weeds and remove any carp. This would reduce the fertility of the sediments and the water column, and provide some great compost. Very 'scientific', but not very appealing to the 'true' scientists as this would end their feeding at the public trough by solving the problem.

I have other useful scientific thoughts as well, however none of them involve the usual 'litmus test' of belief in the ToE.

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You're not a scientific thinker Old Guy (most people aren't, that's OK), and since none of this is about evolution maybe you should stop here. The last time you wrote about lake weeds and cutting firewood up north it didn't end well.
How do we make sustainable environments? Is "Evolution" always the most applicable?

pitabread said:

Meanwhile the Christians who don't read Genesis literally think that creationists are misguided.

At which point this has nothing to do with science and becomes a theological issue you guys need to work out among yourself.



"Kind" is not a biologically relevant term. I assume you are referring to common ancestry of species going back to a level beyond which creationists accept.

(Which varies wildly among creationists, since no two creationists can agree on what "kind" means or what level of biological evolution is acceptable.)



Many Christians who accept the theory of Evolution also believe the Bible. They just have a different interpretation of Genesis than you do.

As I said, this is a theological issue you guys need to sort out. Ultimately that has nothing to do with science and scientific theories.

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The account of creation in Genesis is as literal as the rest of Genesis. Whether other Christians believe that it is or not is between them and God. Scriptural truth is decided by God, not by consensus or personal opinion. He has to reveal it to those who are in error in their belief or interpretation.

TLSITD said:

The account of creation in Genesis is as literal as the rest of Genesis. Whether other Christians believe that it is or not is between them and God. Scriptural truth is decided by God, not by consensus or personal opinion. He has to reveal it to those who are in error in their belief or interpretation.

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Are you saying the earth is 6,000 years old?
No wonder people think Christians are dumb.

GodsGrace101 said:

Are you saying the earth is 6,000 years old?
No wonder people think Christians are dumb.

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Yes. I really couldn't care less what people think about what I believe, except as it pertains to leading them to the knowledge of God, that they might be saved, and to glorifying Him. They'll find out the truth eventually; hopefully---by God's mercy---before they die or the Lord returns.

TLSITD said:

The account of creation in Genesis is as literal as the rest of Genesis. Whether other Christians believe that it is or not is between them and God. Scriptural truth is decided by God, not by consensus or personal opinion. He has to reveal it to those who are in error in their belief or interpretation.

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Then you are claiming that your version of God is a liar. I am sure that you do not realize this. The problem with Bible litralism is that it runs into all sorts of theological problems. Knowing more about our world can only deepen your understanding of the Bible.

If God cannot lie then Genesis cannot be read literally. It is as simple as that.

It's really a degree of how literally you take things. We have people here who believe the earth is flat because they think the Bible says so.

Subduction Zone said:

Then you are claiming that your version of God is a liar. I am sure that you do not realize this. The problem with Bible litralism is that it runs into all sorts of theological problems. Knowing more about our world can only deepen your understanding of the Bible.

If God cannot lie then Genesis cannot be read literally. It is as simple as that.

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Everything in the Bible isn't literal. The creation account is. God has to show the reader of His word what is and isn't.

I've said everything I have to say on this subject in my previous posts; I'm not going to divert this thread into a discussion that would be more appropriate for a separate one.

TLSITD said:

Everything in the Bible isn't literal. The creation account is. God has to show the reader of His word what is and isn't.

I've said everything I have to say on this subject in my previous posts; I'm not going to divert this thread into a discussion that would be more appropriate for a separate one.

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If your God exists his creation shows what is and what isn't. The Earth tells us that the Genesis account cannot be taken literally. That is why you are now claiming that your version of God lies.

This is a serious question:

Can God lie?