I've ...

K2K said:

A ladder has steps! That is what makes it a ladder. However they are no step to get to Jesus Christ. So Jacob saw a ladder, but it was not a ladder that got him into it with the One who touched his hip.

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K2K said:

Jacob was at two different places in his life, when we talk about where he wrestled with God and where he saw the ladder!!!

We have different places with God, spiritually speaking in our lives. There are times when our trusts goes down and we wind up wrestling with God. That is where Jacob was at when he was worried about his brother coming and perhaps killing him. Then there are times when we feel like we are on a high place with God. We feel like we are in the house of God and we are seeing angels ascend and descend on the Lord, and are relaxing in His presence. That was where Jacob was at when he saw the ladder. He was on Betel (house of God), he was relaxing with God not fighting Him, and was seeing the angels of God.

None of this has to do with our nakedness but rather our relationship with God. And none of this has to do with the kingdom of God suffering violence to enter. Jacob certainly was not taking the kingdom by force when he was relaxing on Bethel. And he was not trying to enter the kingdom when the Lord came to him so that they might fight. Those trying to take it by force are like the Pharisees that wanted to kill Jesus so that they could get the attention of the people.

And your nakedness shows up when you are trying to hide from God, like Adam and Eve where, because you did something wrong, not when you are resting with Him or fighting with Him.

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K2K said:

A few problems:

It seems you are confusing the ladder which the angels were ascending and descending with the alar of God. A ladder has steps! I already pointed out that problem. Jacob could have seen the angels ascending and descending in many ways but he saw it happening on a ladder, which has steps, as say opposed to flying up and back or walking on a road. So there was a reason he saw a ladder with steps. However that is not the path to the altar of God. That does not have steps. It seems you have confused the two.

Second problem is that Esau was not the son blessed, nor the son prophesied about. To put the face of God on Esau is a huge mistake. There are a number of symbolism between two sons in the Bible. It usually seems that one represents the Lord and the other seems to represent Satan or the fleshy man, and it seems to also be the case with here also. If we look at Ismael and Isaac we are looking at Isaac being the promised or prophesied about son. It we look at Esau and Jacob it seems to be the same way, where Jacob is the prophesied about son and the believing son. And if we look at Adam and Jesus, again we see that Jesus is the promised or prophesied about son and in this case the face of God clearly goes on Jesus not Adam.

So what indeed are you saying by "he saw Esau’s face as God"? To me it would be like saying that I saw Satan as the face of God and I would then question my ability to discern between good and evil spirit. But maybe I am not understanding what you are trying to say.

Now I do like the fact that you see the progression of Jacob and our own progression. However I might understand that progression a bit different than you. I also like that you have some understanding that we are, spiritually speaking, naked before God. That just means that He sees all that we do and He knows our heart. Pretty much any encounter with the Lord shows us a bit of that because that fact is hard to miss when you have any encounter with Him, yet that does not mean every encounter with the Lord is about that!

I already discussed how Jacob was resting with God when he was on a high place, seeing the angels going up and down the ladder, and feeling like the place should be called the house of God (Bethel). Yet Jacob was in another place and fearful, untrusting, and worried, when he fought with God. But who was Jacob fearful of then. He was not fearful of God then because he decided to fight with God and hold on to God. Instead he was fearful of his brother who was earthly and so represented the things of this world. We all get fearful at times of the things of this world, which does mean we put the face of God on them, but it does mean that are trust and faith in God goes down. So we fight with God, not because we don't believe He is God but because we don't trust that He is going to get us through the encounters of the evil in this world. Still, we have no choice but to hold on to Him even as we fight with Him, because if He doesn't help us who will.

Now that realization, that I have to hold on to Him even though I fight with Him, because He is the only one who can help me, bring me to the point of realizing that I am the Son of the King. Who else could fight with God and live except a son of His? Who else would think that they had to hold on to Him even as the fought with Him except a son who knew his Father? Yeah, you might get a spanking or a touch to the hip, because you fought with Him, but you also get the realization that you are a son of the King. And so He calls you a son, a price, at that time. With that realization you can then go forth, even alone, and face whatever the worldly brothers (other people) have for you.

My friends, I would be very careful about ever putting the face of God on Esau!! Does he not represent a type of Satan?

Mal 1:2.3 "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have You loved us? "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have love Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountain a desolation and appointed his inheritance to the jackals of the wilderness.

Do we not see that the brothers have been appointed two different mountains. Jacob rested on Bethel (House of God) which was a mountain where he rested and saw the angels ascending and descending. Esau's mountain is a desolation.

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K2K said:

Yeah - I enjoy what you are writing. Not that I agree with all of it, but it does get me thinking.

Where is the Altar of God? Well, in His temple and we are His temple. So "Where are thou" is a question for us, not God, but I think you mean it that way. So where I am? In the flesh. I am not of this world but I am in this world. We have read that and understanding that, right? Still, I find the word of God in my heart and the Kingdom of God is in my midst, so I can communicate with the King and His kingdom. So if I am in the flesh and in this world, then the Altar of God, that place where I make a sacrifice to Him, is in the flesh and in this world. Yet it is also a place where I can communicate with Him. So the best explanation on where the Altar of God is; is to understand that it is in my heart. That where I find the Word of God that I preach, and communicate with Him and seemingly His Kingdom also. So it is the place where I make my sacrifices to Him.

Yet if I who am in this world can communicate with Him who is on the throne in the Kingdom of God can communicate at this place called the Altar of God, is that place in this world where I am at or in heaven where God is at? The only answer must be "both". It must be a place where heaven and earth come together. So the Altar of God is the place that exist both in this world and in heaven where the two realms meet.

And yes, there are not steps to getting to the Altar of God. You just go to your heart and start communication with the Lord your God. Never-the-less, angels ascend and descends on a ladder which has steps, so what does that mean?

I would suggest that since a ladder is placed to that you get higher, or to a different level, then the angels, which are all ministering spirits aren't they, are sent to minister to those who will inherit salvation to get them to a new level, or height spiritually speaking. For example, if an angel was to minister to you about peace it should bring you to a new level of understanding about peace with God, shouldn't it? So while their are no steps to getting access to the Lord our God, there is learning and thus new heights or understanding that can be gotten to by steps!

Now I have only commented on a couple of things from the above post. I could comment on much more. For example it is written that nobody has descended or come down out of heaven except the Son, so saying that we must first descend from heaven makes no sense and seem directly contrary to the Scriptures. Yet I have written much.

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Noxot said:

You would not believe the people I have encountered. Now I'm not trying to reduce them to nothing because the truth be told I cannot judge them. but there are people that want to reduce the symbolic language of God to the known and to that which is traditional. but that is only half the truth because the Lord said that we will bring forth things new and old.

God I'm tired of this madness of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil and wish to partake of your pure Tree of Life. So now the logos is the very experience of reality. Why are we so blessed and yet so cursed? The three s's of the human race - Sustenance, shelter and sex. They are a bore and a bother. I cannot take pleasure in anything that is not heavenly. And in the next moment my body is once again another corpse. It hurts to stand in heaven and hell at the same time. It hurts to Bear the baggage of this body.

Truth reveals itself and it's so important to us that we feel strongly for it and must defend it. That which goes against it we must demolish. But what if there was more than one truth in the Bible? What if God was infinite truth and able to shine through a finite medium creating multiple colors of Truth? Do not be like Esau and trade your Birthright for 1 meal. But it's impossible for me to judge anything because only God is good.

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Noxot said:

And things just seem to find their way there. Sometimes it's nice to find a surprise. If anything you can always chop and drop Intruders. sadly the little babies i plucked up, I don't know if they were bell peppers or Osage orange. Probably a mix of both. I guess that's what I get for forgetting about my bell peppers and leaving Osage orange seeds around everywhere. Needless to say I'm somewhat irresponsible.

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K2K said:

Most people believe heaven is a location? Yeah, they probably should, even according to the little you wrote from the Scriptures.

For example if Jesus said that no one where if came from or where He was going, then He came from someone and was going somewhere. And in the same way you brought up that fact that we hear the sound of the wind but don't know where is came from or where it is going. By saying that we confirm that we know it came from somewhere and is going somewhere but we don't know exactly where. Therefore heaven is some type of location!! That's is obvious.

Now saying that nobody knows the Son except the Father is a different type of knowledge altogether, just like knowing a person is different than knowing a location!! Of course you left out something in that statement and that something is nobody knows the Father except the Son and any who He shows the Father to. This goes together with Jesus explaining to His disciples that if they have seen Him they have seen the Father. There is a good reason why we don't know the Son, and that is that the Son says and does and says only what the Father tells Him! So anything you hear from Him came from the Father not Him! So if everything you hear from the Son is from the Father, and you listen to the Son, then you are hearing the words that came from the Father and is not the thinking of the Son!! Therefore, if we listen to the Son, like the Father told us, then we hear only the words of the Father!

There is only one place in the Bible where you see the personality of the Son, that I know of. It is when Jesus is praying to the Father to take this cup from Him, but not His will but the Father's!

Do you not understand that Jesus, the Son, didn't want to go to the cross. It was going to hurt and He knew it. Never-the-less He would go because He was always going to do the will of the Father, because He always had.

So I can get to know the Son really well and talk to Him often, but what do I know about Him? I know that He says and does only what the Father tells Him. I know what David wrote about Him, "The Lord said to my Lord." That is to say I know that the Father speaks to the Son. The Son listens, and does and says only what He is told. Because I have spent time with the Son, I know there is a reason for that. The reason is that even the Son, who is the perfect image of the invisible God, does not consider that the depths of God are something that can be fully understood even by Him. So the only wise and correct thing to do is to do and say only what the Father tells Him.

Now even the angels of heaven who faithfully serve the Lord do not do and say only what they are told. They understand this better than you and I though. So they get a lot closer to it than we do, but we are going to be like the angels in heaven. So we are counted as being righteous because we believe in the Son, and Him as the Word of God because He says only what the Father tells Him.

So who is making a name for themselves except the person pointing people to themselves and not the Son. Angels that serve the Lord point people to the Son, even in there telling you things that they have been told by the Son. If you look at my post you should see that my main purpose is to get people to listen to the Son. Have I not already talked about listening to the Son?

Now I am not the Word of God, because I don't do and say only what I hear from my Lord Jesus Christ, which would be the words of God. Yet I do what He told me and try to listen as I can get myself to, which is usually about a dozen times a day. For example: He told me to come and post when I as looking to do some work on my business. Yet what to post? It wasn't clear to me, so I came, read, and replied. Not to add one cubit to my statue, but to get people to listen to the Lord and do what the Lord told me. How could my statue go up anyway. What is my name?

I like posting on the forum because I don't see where anyone knows me here. Sometimes I have included my first name, but that only to show that we can and should have a personal relationship with the Lord, but there are soooo many people with the same first name as me. So my statue can't go up but perhaps someone will consider that they need to seek the Lord Jesus Christ for His words to them.

Oh I do testify about Him, and in many ways. For one thing He Teaches, makes sense, clarifies, and brings wisdom and understanding even in the parables He uses like a teacher might us a parable - which is to help us understand and not confuse.

So what is meant by my Glory to glory is different than step by step? Jesus said He would guide our steps and there is something about being lead from glory to glory, and also that He would lead His sheep out with His voice. So hearing His voice means He is guiding your steps, and if guiding your steps then it must be from glory to glory. It is all the same One talking to you, guiding you, and taking you from glory to glory, so you writes that they are different?

To me, knowing my Lord means hearing His voice guiding my steps and taking me from glory to glory. It's all the same thing. That is to say He was the One who told me to come post, which guided my steps to my computer and write, and so if there is any perceived glory given to me then it is not my glory. He knows my name but who else reading this knows me except Him.

Therefore people, listen to Him like the Father says and He will guide your steps from glory to glory. That is what it means to know Him.

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