A question about non-believers

Smokey19 said:

So, what happens to someone who leads a moral existence, gives freely of their time and money to help others, is pure of heart but has never made the effort to know Christ?

This must describe millions of people, who lead selfless lives and are thoroughly decent humans. Are they condemned to hell anyway? Seems a little harsh.

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Irrelevant. Grace is not by character nor by the environment you life in. Some people are nice in nature but have no advantage over the ones that are not. And again it is irrelevant if you are born in a Christian family and let's say a Muslim family. Just because you are born in Christian family does not give you any advantage of grace what so ever. How do I know this? Well let's look at the Bible. The pharisees in Christ time studied the bible for 60 years and yet it was for nothing. Why? Because they studied the bible so mechanically that they were only worried by the letter and not the spirit of the bible. That's why the Pharisees looked at externally, were without spot. But their inward parts were full of ravening and wickedness. They were concerned about the external injunctions of religion, but they forgot the weightier matters of the law, namely love to God and the love of one's neighbour.

Let me explain this even further to you, something that many don't know. Many people think that for example the merciful person is someone easy-going, easy get on with but that is not what is meant by our Lord's description of a Christian. The Beatitudes, the Blessings, none of them must be ever interpreted in terms of natural disposition, because if you start thinking of Blessing in such terms you will find them grossly unfair. Some are born like this (merciful, nice, easy-going) and some are not, and the man who is born with this easy-going temperament is not at an advantage over the man who is not. That would be a denial of whole biblical teaching. The gospel is not for certain temperaments. nobody has an advantage over anybody else when they are face to face with God. All have come short of the Glory of God, no matter how much they donated etc.

There is nothing more unchristian in the church today than this foolish talk about personality. For example 'the poor in spirit' it does not mean that we are weak, retiring or lacking in courage. Many people are born like that and may even be naturally weak. The 'poor in spirit' is a complete absence of pride. a complete absence of self-assurance and of self-reliance. It means a consciousness that we are nothing in presence of God. It is nothing then that we can produce, it is nothing we can do ourselves. It is just a tremendous awareness of our utter nothingness in presence of God.

If we truly are Christian we shall not rely upon our natural birth. We shall not rely upon the fact that we belong to certain families, we shall not boast that we belong to certain nationalities. We shall not build upon our natural temperament. We shall not believe in and rely upon our natural position in life, or any powers that may have been given to us. We shall not rely upon money and our possessions. We shall not rely upon any gifts like that of natural personality or intelligence or special ability. We shall not rely upon our our own morality and conduct and good behaviour. There must be a complete deliverance from and absence of all that. The way to become poor in spirit is to look at God and ask Him to to give you mercy and increase your faith.

Does this mean you do not do good deeds. Absolutely not. But do things, that always please the Heavenly Father.

Smokey19 said:

One thing that's always perplexed me is how God can fairly judge mankind when we are all dealt such different hands in life. For example, a person born and raised into a loving, Christian household is far more likely to be open to Christ than someone whose culture/environment doesn't even acknowledge Christianity. How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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My question is --
why do we simple men wish to think that the God that created this world would be unfair in any kind of way?

As usual (we) little simple men
think too highly of ourselves.

M

Smokey19 said:

One thing that's always perplexed me is how God can fairly judge mankind when we are all dealt such different hands in life. For example, a person born and raised into a loving, Christian household is far more likely to be open to Christ than someone whose culture/environment doesn't even acknowledge Christianity. How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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it sounds like you are presuming to know what God's judgement is for these individuals.

gospels said:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus (Romans 2:12-16).

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gospels said:

All people have received general revelation from God, which makes them without excuse before Him. Paul makes this very clear, "because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" (Romans 1:19). God has revealed Himself to every person on earth with general revelation, which gives the definite knowledge that God exists. General revelation also tells us something about what God is like.

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20). Every person on earth, whether they have heard the gospel or not, is directly accountable to God, being without excuse. They know that there is a God, whether they admit it or not.

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The Catholic Church holds the same stance:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 847)

This all reminds me of one of my friends, who was raised without any religion, but really took a liking the Medieval codes of honor. Through these codes of honor, he was able to live a better life, and led me to do the same. He is a part of the reason why I became religious; the idea of living with honor really resonated with me, but as time went on, I couldn't escape the realization that these codes of honor were just made by people. As good as they were, there had to be something higher; the existence of a God who assigns standards of living became the only way to understand the depth and importance of all of this.

I later found out that these codes of honor came into being when Christianity merged with European warfare. So my friend, without any religion he knew about, was following Christ's teachings (indirectly), encouraged me to do the same, and inspired a deeper relationship & understanding of God in me. That sounds like a man who's following Christ to me! Even if Christ hasn't revealed Himself to my friend in a more conventional manner, this is how He could reach my friend, and through my friend is part of how He reached me!

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:

The Catholic Church holds the same stance:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 847)

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It's true. That has become the view of the Catholic Church lately.

But how it ("good" pagans, etc. are as acceptable to God as believers in Christ are) might be squared with the Bible, with Tradition, or the consensus of Christian thinking since Pentecost is very hard to figure.

Smokey19 said:

One thing that's always perplexed me is how God can fairly judge mankind when we are all dealt such different hands in life. For example, a person born and raised into a loving, Christian household is far more likely to be open to Christ than someone whose culture/environment doesn't even acknowledge Christianity. How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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One can view the Koran to get answers to your questions. Muslims are very aware who Jesus Christ of Nazareth is even describing Him as the Messiah. They are very familiar with His miracles and claims and truly honor Him however, they stop short when proclaiming He is divine and Allah Himself. We can blame Mohamed who corrupted the "Good News". He introduced doctrines of men into the purity of the Gospel like the many doctrines that have creeped into the Church. Corruption of the "Good News" abounds far and wide. Ultimately God judges the hearts of those who love Him. Though it is impossible for us to understand, there are many Muslim's who truly love Him and seek the truth. With that love eventually He is revealed to them.
Be blessed and stay healthy!

gospels said:

All people have received general revelation from God, which makes them without excuse before Him. Paul makes this very clear, "because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" (Romans 1:19). God has revealed Himself to every person on earth with general revelation, which gives the definite knowledge that God exists. General revelation also tells us something about what God is like.

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20). Every person on earth, whether they have heard the gospel or not, is directly accountable to God, being without excuse. They know that there is a God, whether they admit it or not.

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Paul also said how would they believe if no one tells them ...

Smokey19 said:

...How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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Bible tells eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

It is possible that person who has not heard of Jesus can be counted righteous, because Bible says:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

Smokey19 said:

One thing that's always perplexed me is how God can fairly judge mankind when we are all dealt such different hands in life. For example, a person born and raised into a loving, Christian household is far more likely to be open to Christ than someone whose culture/environment doesn't even acknowledge Christianity. How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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Smokey19 said:

One thing that's always perplexed me is how God can fairly judge mankind when we are all dealt such different hands in life. For example, a person born and raised into a loving, Christian household is far more likely to be open to Christ than someone whose culture/environment doesn't even acknowledge Christianity. How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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You severely under estimate the ability of God.

Smokey19 said:

. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked (Luke 12:48)

gospels said:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus (Romans 2:12-16).

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Perfect answer...

Smokey19 said:

One thing that's always perplexed me is how God can fairly judge mankind when we are all dealt such different hands in life. For example, a person born and raised into a loving, Christian household is far more likely to be open to Christ than someone whose culture/environment doesn't even acknowledge Christianity. How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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God is just.. He can not be unjust.. He is also the personification of Love.

He will judge everyone by everything that they encountered and what trials they faced and what temptations they endured...

Nobody will be able to say "Ya... but in my life X and Y happened."...


There will be no "Ya... But's" on judgement day. You will be judged and you will be 100% certain that you get what you deserve..

Unless, of course... it's everlasting life.. cause... non of us "deserve" it.... but it's ours if we ask.

Someone's already talked about what Paul called the general revelation of God thru creation. But I believe the Lord's sovereignty goes even deeper than that as it has to do with people the OP referenced in this thread. I'm currently seeking and waiting on God to teach me deeper secrets as it relates to this. I'll post them in the controversial theology section after I get the 'download'.

Smokey19 said:

One thing that's always perplexed me is how God can fairly judge mankind when we are all dealt such different hands in life. For example, a person born and raised into a loving, Christian household is far more likely to be open to Christ than someone whose culture/environment doesn't even acknowledge Christianity. How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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You are trying to rationalize what God has established- not a very fruitful exercise! We are finite, God is infinite. God will never deal with mankind treacherously.

He laid down the rules for salvation, one must trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin debt! Apart from that , there is no salvation.

He commissioned the church to bring that message globally.

He also will not allow one person who deisres salvation to be lost!

Lost4words said:

Everyone has free will.

You read of many times a Muslim, for example has converted to Christianity.

Everyone has that chance to turn to Jesus. For many it can be frought with danger to turn from their 'faith'. God has His arms open to all who seek Him.

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But there are people who believe in their religion the same way you believe in yours. They feel they have experienced their God the same way you have experienced yours. If you could show them clearly why they are wrong(I’m not talking about scripture or hearsay(not everyone believes it) I would hope people would change and come to the truth but no one of any religion can give this.

grasping the after wind said:

I don't think that describes even one person. Decent human beings I will say are out there in the billions, but selfless? No way. Moral existence? What do you mean by that? Morally upright or morally bankrupt? We are creatures that are by nature basically self centered. That does not mean we are incapable of being nice or even generous at times and it certainly does not mean we are consistently evil but who is actually selfless.? No one.

You have this thing somewhat backwards. God does not condemn us to hell. We already abide in hell because we are not selfless and perfect enough to abide with God. Hell is our rightful dwelling place and none of us have any reason to expect we deserve better. We don't earn a release from hell, God releases us. If we reject the offer of release that He made to us by sending His Son, He does not.

◄ Romans 5 ►


6For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7For rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! 10For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life! 11Not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

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And if someone hasn’t heard of Jesus?

Smokey19 said:

One thing that's always perplexed me is how God can fairly judge mankind when we are all dealt such different hands in life. For example, a person born and raised into a loving, Christian household is far more likely to be open to Christ than someone whose culture/environment doesn't even acknowledge Christianity. How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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They are not all judged like you think. Read your Bible man.

Smokey19 said:

One thing that's always perplexed me is how God can fairly judge mankind when we are all dealt such different hands in life. For example, a person born and raised into a loving, Christian household is far more likely to be open to Christ than someone whose culture/environment doesn't even acknowledge Christianity. How can a person who was raised in a strictly Muslim household be judged by the same yardstick as someone who was raised a Christian? To some degree, we are all influenced by environmental factors, our parents, our peers and the culture of our country. It just doesn't feel like there's an even playing field for God to condemn all non-believers.

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Why do you believe God would condemn all non-believers?

-CryptoLutheran

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

And if someone hasn’t heard of Jesus?

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You persist in finding a problem where there is none, why? Trust God! He has the answers, you do not.

Loversofjesus_2018 said:

And if someone hasn’t heard of Jesus?

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misput said:

You persist in finding a problem where there is none, why? Trust God! He has the answers, you do not.

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