Not Subject to the Law?

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ro 8:7
because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.

(CLV) Ro 8:8
Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

Quite simple.

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What you have posted appears to be saying that sinners do not have to get Gods law.

If this were correct they would not be sinners.

If you use the NIV or the NKJV what the passage says is that sinner cannot obey Gods lawbecause they are sinners.

Hello @HARK!, while it is indeed a simple truth that those who cannot obey God cannot please Him (Romans 8:7-8), what further point are you making in your OP?

Thanks for your help!

--David

HARK! said:

That pretty much sums it up; although I should add that if they are in the flesh; they're not in the Ruach Ha'Kodesh.

Those in the Ruach Ha'Kodesh obey YHWH's law.

It's really quite simple.

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Is there an elephant in the room? So where does that leave those in the church who don't obey Torah?

HARK! said:

I should add that if they are in the flesh; they're not in the Ruach Ha'Kodesh. Those in the Ruach Ha'Kodesh obey YHWH's law.

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Agreed (the only exception to that being @Oldmantook's "elephant", because no Christian obeys God's law perfectly on this side of the grave, well, except the Lord Jesus Himself, of course).

HARK! said:

Sinners haven't subjected themselves to YHWH's law. That's why they're sinners.

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Agreed, in the plainest sense, sinners are sinners because they have disobeyed God, but since your OP reference is Romans 8:7-8, there is actually more to it than that, isn't there?

Thanks again!

--David

Hello again @HARK!, leaving everything else that he had to say in those two verses aside for the moment, why do you believe that it was important for the Apostle Paul to take the time to drive such an obvious point home (that a sinner is someone who sins)?

Thanks again

--David

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ro 8:7
because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.

(CLV) Ro 8:8
Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

Quite simple.

Click to expand...

The verses you quoted only apply to non-Christians. You didn't include the next verse....


It says unbelievers' minds do not submit to God's law. For Jews that would be the Mosaic Law, for gentiles it would be the law written on their hearts (their instinctive knowledge of right and wrong).

HARK! said:

Nonsense. You made that up.

Then you butchered the verse.


(CLV) Ro 8:9
Yet you are not in flesh, but in spirit, if so be that God's spirit is making its home in you. Now if anyone has not Christ's spirit, this one is not His.

He draws no distinction between Jew, Gentile, Christian, Atheist . If the Ruach Ha'Kodesh is in you; you do not transgress YHWH's law. If the Ruach Ha'Kodesh is not in you; you're not his.

Plain and simple.

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Verse 9 says what it plainly says. "You, however, [in distinction to those in the previous 2 verses] are not in the flesh but in the Spirit".

The rest of the verse confirms this. Unbelievers (those without the Spirit) do not belong to Christ.

HARK! said:

From the same letter:

(CLV) Ro 10:12
For there is not distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same One is Lord of all, being rich for all who are invoking Him.

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Read the context of Rom 10:12. It is saying that God gives the same gift of salvation to whoever calls upon him (Jew or Gentile). It doesn't say both Jew and Gentile are under the same Mosaic Law.

HARK! said:

Yes it makes a clear distinction. Anyone is in the Ruach, is not in the flesh, breaking YHWH's laws. Anyone!

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Yes, Rom 8:7-9 says unbelievers do not submit to God's Law (they are sinners).

Unbelieving Jews do not submit to the Mosaic Law and Gentiles do not submit to the law written on their hearts (their instinctive knowledge of right and wrong).

HARK! said:

Let's look at it in context; instead of paraphrasing it to fit your wishes.

(CLV) Ro 10:9
that, if ever you should be avowing with your mouth the declaration that Jesus is Lord, (MASTER! Master of what? You! If he's your master you'll listen to him when he tells you to obey his father's words) and should be believing (If Adam believed in YHWH instead of Satan; He's still be in the Garden) in your heart that God rouses Him from among the dead, you shall be saved. (He was raised because he was obedient. He calls us to follow his example.)

(CLV) Ro 10:10
For with the heart it is believed for righteousness, yet with the mouth it is avowed for salvation.

What is righteousness?

righ·teous | \ ˈrī-chəs \
Definition of righteous
1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin


Our actions reveal what we believe.


(CLV) Ro 10:11
For the scripture is saying: Everyone who is believing on Him shall not be disgraced.

(CLV) Ro 10:12
For there is not distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same One is Lord of all, being rich for all who are invoking Him.

Nowhere does this verse say that there is one set of rules for one, and another set of rules for another.

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My point is Rom 10:12 is not saying Jews and Gentiles are both under the Law as you want it to say. It says

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on ALL who call on him."

Calling on the Lord is the indistinction in this verse. This is backed up by the context.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ro 8:7
because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able.

(CLV) Ro 8:8
Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.

Quite simple.

Click to expand...

Also:

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

1 John 2:15-16
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world.

Ephesians 4:18-19
They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.

Romans 7:22
For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Timothy 3:4
treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

Colossians 1:21
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,