Is the Rapture biblical?

keras said:

1. As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is no actual verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-Tribulation rapture.

2. Pre-Trib’ers force assumptions on many key Bible verses – especially assuming that all references to “saints” and to the “elect”, who are being persecuted and martyred during the “end-times’ tribulation”, must refer to those individuals who are saved after the Pre-Trib rapture has taken place. How are all these folks getting saved during the “end-times’ tribulation” if the “Church” and the “restrainer” have been removed?


3. There is no instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, or the Apostles made any statement to the effect that “the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth seven years prior to the beginning of the end-times’ tribulation period”.


4. Despite taking several texts out of context from a few early church fathers’ writings, the Pre-Trib’ers really cannot find any predominant, popular teaching that supports the Pre-Trib rapture prophetic viewpoint in any era of Church history prior to the 1830s.


5. Many learned men of the Christian faith, such as John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney, John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, George Whitefield, etc., were all solid Post-Trib believers!


6. The Pre-Trib rapture is a very big “cash cow” for Pre-Trib writers. Yet, there are some Pre-Trib’ers who will admit that their prophetic viewpoint is still a minority among Bible scholars. How can that be, you may ask, since so many prophecy books favor the “Pre-Trib” viewpoint? That is because so many of the major “Christian” publishing houses are, for the most part, owned and controlled by liberal Christians. Post-Trib writers often find it extremely hard to get their books published by these publishing houses, because Pre-Trib “sells”. Could that be because a rapture removal to heaven appeals to an “escapist” mentality? It’s that mentality of: “I sure don’t want to be here when the Antichrist takes over!” The Pre-Trib rapture theory appeals to many, after all, who wants to face persecution?


7. Despite the fact that many Pre-Trib’ers dislike author Dave MacPherson, they haven’t been able to disprove his well-documented findings that show that the Pre-Trib rapture’s origins (as far as any public teaching) date back to the 1830s – and not earlier than that time. Nor have the Pre-Trib’ers been able to disprove MacPherson’s findings that the vast majority of the early church fathers taught that the church would go through the “end-times’ tribulation” – and lots of tribulation before that.

8. Public teaching of the Pre-Trib rapture originated in the British Isles during the 1830s. This theory was then taken to America a little bit later, and was popularized by the “Scofield Study Bible”.


9. To believe in the Pre-Trib rapture, one must ignore several key Bible verses that speak directly against that idea, such as John 17:15 where the Lord Jesus Christ Himself prays that the Father NOT take believers OUT OF the world – and I Thessalonians 4:16, 17, which says that the Christians living at the time of Jesus Christ’s return are not caught up until after the “dead in Christ” are raised first.


10. Believing in the Pre-Trib rapture, goes against the prevalent theme of those portions of the Bible that deal with tribulation and persecution. That prevalent theme is “preservation in the midst of tribulation”. Note: the accounts of Daniel in the lions’ den, and of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace! Isaiah 43:2


11. To believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, you have to think that you will be among a very “select group” of Christians who will not have to suffer horrible things during the “end-times’ tribulation”. Your “select group” excludes those millions of Christians from past centuries who were NOT “air evacuated” out of their tribulation and suffering, and the many individuals who become Christians during the “end-times’ tribulation”, and who will suffer martyrdom!


12. The Pre-Trib rapture belief, for the most part, seems to produce very bad fruit– that is, it seems to have neutralized” many Christians living today, causing them to sit back and to not fight evil. And that is because, don’t you know, they won’t be here when things get really bad. Could this “doctrine” have been specifically designed to make Christians complacent and careless?


13. There will be a ‘rapture’, but not to heaven, when Jesus Returns to earth. this will be the gathering of Matthew 24:31 and the rising into the air to meet Him of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Then we Christians will be with His always; ON EARTH.
Ref; Darryl Eberhart

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The Bible is one of the top selling books. It does not invalidate the Bible because it is a top seller. Also, I remember reading an article once (cannot find it now) whereby the Rapture can be found in history before Darby. But besides that, even if this was not the case, new things are discovered all the time in Scripture. What the early church knew can very well be re-discovered in our recent years.

The problem with Christians believing there is no Imminent Rapture is that they can then beat their fellow servants and become drunken because they believe the Lord is delaying His coming to a time they think He is coming. It is also a lack of faith in the words of Jesus that says we are to watch and look because He comes in a time we are not expecting Him. Post tribbers can act like the world in the fact that they tell others to get ready for tomorrow. Yet, Jesus says sufficient of the day is the evil thereof. Do not worry about tomorrow. Seek first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you. Trust in God. Look to Jesus and His imminent return and do not for the antichrist that kicks off the tribulation.

People who have turned to fables and stopped their ears to the truth, will have a nasty shock when what they expected doesn't happen.
Sadly, they won't change as to do that means admitting their error and their friends will think they have gone crazy.

I have presented the truth of what God has told us thru His prophets, but people are locked into their beliefs.
However; After the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath -

Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth this people, a people whose eyes are blind, whose ears are deaf.

Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

Isaiah 42:18-20 You that are deaf; hear now, you that are blind; look and see! Who is so deaf and blind as My servant, the messenger that I send, the one who has My trust?

Isaiah 29:18 On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see.

Isaiah 29:24 Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will take instruction.

Isaiah 32:3-4 Then those who see and hear will understand clearly, the impetuous mind will know and the stammering tongue will speak fluently and plainly.

keras said:

People who have turned to fables and stopped their ears to the truth, will have a nasty shock when what they expected doesn't happen.
Sadly, they won't change as to do that means admitting their error and their friends will think they have gone crazy.

I have presented the truth of what God has told us thru His prophets, but people are locked into their beliefs.
However; After the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath -

Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth this people, a people whose eyes are blind, whose ears are deaf.

Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

Isaiah 42:18-20 You that are deaf; hear now, you that are blind; look and see! Who is so deaf and blind as My servant, the messenger that I send, the one who has My trust?

Isaiah 29:18 On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see.

Isaiah 29:24 Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will take instruction.

Isaiah 32:3-4 Then those who see and hear will understand clearly, the impetuous mind will know and the stammering tongue will speak fluently and plainly.

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I will not go crazy if the Rapture does not happen. Only those who are weak in the faith will go crazy or lose their faith. It's an Eschatological belief and men realize that they can be wrong on their interpretations in God's Word. So I would say that something else could have easily set them off to lose faith in God and it would not necessarily have to be the Rapture failing to meet their expectations of when they think it should happen. But I do believe it will happen based on Scripture. For no man knows the day or the hour and we are to look to our Lord and watch.

For how do you see the servant today who says the Lord delays his coming? Who is that servant today in your eyes? Who are they? I believe they are Post Tribbers or no Rapture types. They are saying the Lord is delaying His coming to a time when they say and not to a time that is imminent or at any hour or day we do not know.

Why do people fuss over what they may never experience. And even if they do, there is nothing they can do either way about it.

Bible Highlighter said:

My Quick Defense of the Pre-Trib Rapture:


There are two calls:

The Wedding (Marriage) Call for the Bride:
(A raising up of the body of believers that can happen at any day or hour that we do not know):
(This Rapture or call is for those who were Faithful to the Rapture & in living holy):

• Matthew 25:10

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."​

The Call After the Wedding:
(Middle of Tribulation, i.e. Olivet Discourse description of angels gathering the elect up):
(This is the Call for the Servant Who Reformed After Being Left Behind from The Rapture; This servant said that the Lord delayed His coming and they had their portion with the unbelievers by being left behind because of their unbelief):
(These servants are not called the "bride" because they were unfaithful to the call to marriage with the Rapture):

• Luke 12:36

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."​

Note: One call is for the actual wedding or marriage (Matthew 25:10), and one call is after the wedding or marriage (Luke 12:36) (Note: Some Modern Translations add "wedding feast" to Luke 12:36, but this is not what the King James says, which is a trusted translation that existed long before the Modern Translations showed up). The problem with these Modern Translations rendering on saying that this "call" happens after the "Wedding feast" is in the fact that the "Wedding feast" is the battle of Armageddon (Compare Revelation 19:9 with Revelation 19:17). This would mean there will be a call after Armageddon (Which does not make any sense).

The Restrainer Will Be Removed:

• 2 Thessalonians 2:7 (NASB), 2 Thessalonians 2:8

7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way."
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"​

Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 suggests that the Antichrist will not appear until the Restrainer has been removed. I believe this "Restrainer" to be the Spirit indwelling the church body. When the church (filled with the Spirit) is removed, the Antichrist will come (or be revealed).

Promise of the Rapture:
(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):

• 1 Thessalonians 1:10

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."​

• 1 Thessalonians 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
​

The Rapture is a New Mystery Revealed:

• 1 Corinthians 15:51

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
​

Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:
(In order to miss out on the 7 Year Tribulation):

• Matthew 25:13

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

​

We are told to pray so that we may escape all these things mentioned within the Tribulation:

• Luke 21:36

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
​

What things shall we escape if we pray?

• Luke 21:10

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"
​

• Revelation 6:4

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."
​

• Luke 21:11

"And great earthquakes..."
​

• Revelation 6:12

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"
​

• Luke 21:11

"...and famines..."
​

• Revelation 6:5-6

"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."​

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You totally avoided the question! I will take that as an admission you have nothing! If you have something show me Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

I notice you don't address Posttrib rebuttals that expose Pretrib as extra-biblical and erroneous. All you want to do is relay what you have been taught.

keras said:

1. As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is no actual verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-Tribulation rapture.

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Do you have a literal quote?

Bible Highlighter said:

I agree. The Post Trib Rapture option seems highly unlikely.
The saints are coming down from Heaven.

I believe there will be two calls. I believe there will be a "Pre-Trib Rapture," (A Mystery Revealed by Paul), and a "Mid Trib Gathering Up By Angels" (Olivet Discourse).

As for the "Marriage Supper":
I do not believe this is a literal supper in Heaven. I believe it is just another name for His saints defeating the enemy nations at Christ's 2nd coming. In Revelation 19, compare verse 9 with verse 17 (i.e. Revelation 19:9, and Revelation 19:17).

The "eagles" (mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and the fowl in Revelation) are believers (For Isaiah 40:31 says that we saints shall mount up like wings like eagles).

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What verses do you use for a midtrib rapture of any kind? The gathering in Matthew 24 is after the entire "trib" (70th week) is finished.

Not a literal supper? What? Do you not believe it will be a literal marriage?

People have been heaven heaven and returned that have seen the preparations for the supper. Others have been told the preparations are finished.
You surprise me.

sovereigngrace said:

Do you have a literal quote?

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Valvoord has said this, but I think he is mistaken.

But then, we could say:
there is no actual verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the POST-Tribulation rapture.
there is no actual verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-wrath rapture.

It is a silly argument because we don't go by a single verse to establish doctrine, but by all end time verses.

sovereigngrace said:

You totally avoided the question! I will take that as an admission you have nothing! If you have something show me Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

I notice you don't address Posttrib rebuttals that expose Pretrib as extra-biblical and erroneous. All you want to do is relay what you have been taught.

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1 Thes. 4:17 clearly shows a rapture or catching up.
1 Thes. 5 shows that it will happen JUST before God's wrath begins.
In Revelation God's wrath begins at the 6th seal as the DAY of His wrath.
John then SAW the raptured church in chapter 7 as the great crowd too large to number.
The literal 7 years is marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th vial ends it.
The 7th vial is in chapter 16.
Christ's coming in power is in chapter 19.

iamlamad said:

Valvoord has said this, but I think he is mistaken.

But then, we could say:
there is no actual verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the POST-Tribulation rapture.
there is no actual verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-wrath rapture.

It is a silly argument because we don't go by a single verse to establish doctrine, but by all end time verses.

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Not so! There are many passages that teach Postrib, if you are interested. The Church has always been in tribulation. It goes with the territory of being righteous on a sinful earth. That all stops when He comes. It is the end. The righteous are all rescued and the wicked are all destroyed. wicked are destroyed not ushered into another tribulation. There is no 7 years tribulation in the Bible. No Pretribber can show their scenario describing (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ) because it does not exist in the sacred text.

The issue of a 'rapture to heaven' for the Church is far from being accepted by many people who seriously study this belief. So believers in that idea cannot just assume that a rapture will happen.

They say; We Christians are not appointed to wrath. And this is a true statement, but it doesn't in any way mean that God intends to remove His people to heaven, to avoid any hardships and testing to come.
I have a list of 25 scriptures that say how the Lord will protect His people during His wrath.

What people should consider, is what does God want of us Christians? What is our destiny?
Jesus gave us a Commission; to spread the Gospel, Matthew 28:19-20
Will He say; Nah, don't need to bother any more, come up here and do harp practice! Let the ungodly stew in their own juice.

NO; we are His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-13, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16, also Ezekiel 39:27
THAT is our task, our destiny and our great privilege.

sovereigngrace said:

Not so! There are many passages that teach Postrib, if you are interested. The Church has always been in tribulation. It goes with the territory of being righteous on a sinful earth. That all stops when He comes. It is the end. The righteous are all rescued and the wicked are all destroyed. wicked are destroyed not ushered into another tribulation. There is no 7 years tribulation in the Bible. No Pretribber can show their scenario describing (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ) because it does not exist in the sacred text.

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OK, then I will say there are many passages that teach pretrib. You read a verse and say "clearly postrib" and I read the same verse and say "not so fast." A great example is the gathering in Matthew 24: there is no scriptural proof that is Paul's rapture, and much scriptural proof it cannot be.

Agreed: the church has always been in tribulation. According to a few verses, God considers the entire church age "tribulation." But there is a great difference in "tribulation" and the wrath of God. I think scripture is clear that we are not here during the time of His wrath. I am further convinced by scripture that the entire 70th week is His wrath.

That all stops when He comes. It is the end. WRONG! He comes as per 1 Thes. just before wrath but ONLY to the clouds and before the 70th week. So it is NOT "the end." Try as you might, you cannot squeeze two more comings into one.

There is no 7 years tribulation in the Bible. Perhaps, but there is certainly 7 years of the 70th week. John shows us the second half 5 times and in three different ways, and Daniel gave us the last half twice. It is not hard to multiply 3.5 by 2 and get 7. It is not hard to multiply 42 months by 2 and get 84/12 = 7. Same with the 1260 days.

John has clearly laid out the entire 70th week with the 7th seal to the 7th vial. The trumpet judgments are in the first half and the vials in the last half. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet: it will sound in heaven the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

(1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ) How do you know this is truth and a ruler to measure truth? However, Putting end times scriptures together:

The church is waiting at the 5th seal for the final martyr.

Suddenly the dead in Christ rise. This ENDS the church age and so no more martyrs. The dead in Christ rising will cause a worldwide earthquake. Those who are alive and in Christ will feel the ground begin to shake, but they are caught up. Those left behind cannot escape this sudden destruction earthquake. It is Paul's rapture / gathering. (The resurrected dead and the alive and changed are gathered together to meet Christ in the cloud.)

John's next event:

The 6th seal starts the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord
The 7th seal begins the 70th week. 3.5 years or 1260 days later:
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. 1260 days later:
The 7th vial ends the week - 7 long years later. "The trib" is over. The days of great tribulation are over.
Rev. 19: Jesus returns.
It is all plain and simple.

iamlamad said:

1 Thes. 4:17 clearly shows a rapture or catching up.
1 Thes. 5 shows that it will happen JUST before God's wrath begins.
In Revelation God's wrath begins at the 6th seal as the DAY of His wrath.
John then SAW the raptured church in chapter 7 as the great crowd too large to number.
The literal 7 years is marked by 7's: the 7th seal begins the week, the 7th vial ends it.
The 7th vial is in chapter 16.
Christ's coming in power is in chapter 19.

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1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is a vivid record of Christ’s coming and what accompanies it. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

One thing we should acknowledge as we dissect this text is that “the coming of the Lord” is synonymous here with “the day of the Lord.” Moreover, this passage is exhorting the Church to remain watchful as this final day approaches. Man should prepare himself for this great and terrible day because it will spell the end of time, the end of the wicked and the end of all rebellion.

After comforting the Church, Paul then warns it: “Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

After outlining the awfulness of that day for those left behind, the suddenness of its arrival, and the fact that none left behind will escape, Paul makes clear that we are not ignorant of this day and will therefore not be caught unprepared. Christ is going to rescue us – by being caught up – from this awful sudden and total destruction that is going to destroy the wicked. Clearly, we are here when the coming of Christ arrives as a thief in the night, but are prepared and, as a consequence, rescued to escape the awful destruction.

One of the first matters that we encounter in this passage, and which eliminates much of the error circulating within pretribulationist circles today, is the fact that when Christ comes again it is “with” and “for” His saints in one glorious single second coming. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

Therefore, there are not two separate comings or parousias of the Lord separated by a notional 7-year period – one for His Church and another with His Church. In fact, nowhere in this reading does it even vaguely intimate such. The second coming (parousia) of the Lord will see the immediate and complete rescue of the saved and the immediate and complete destruction of the damned (ruling out any notion that the tribulation comes after the second advent).

The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant cry. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful and thorough that none escape. This is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib packed with unsaved people.

The opposite to “wrath” here is shown to be “salvation.” Salvation involves a person taking a hold of eternal life. The antithesis is therefore a person experiencing eternal torment. The wrath of God will be poured out on the wicked at the end. They will then experience the second death.

To get around the climactic detail of this passage Pretribs try to separate the day of the Lord from the second coming of Christ. This totally distorts the wording, the harmony and the thrust of this passage and its detailed description of the fate of the saved and the lost. The day of the Lord is pushed 7 years ahead of the coming of Christ even though there is no mention of such in this text. Pretrib is therefore exposed by this text.

The writer actually warns the believer in the light of the awful unexpected destruction that overcomes the wicked at the coming of Christ for the believer to be watchful of that day so “that that day should overtake you as a thief.” We are told to “watch and be sober” of that day.

Let us try and sum up what this much-debated passage is telling us about Christ’s coming.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

iamlamad said:

OK, then I will say there are many passages that teach pretrib. You read a verse and say "clearly postrib" and I read the same verse and say "not so fast." A great example is the gathering in Matthew 24: there is no scriptural proof that is Paul's rapture, and much scriptural proof it cannot be.

Agreed: the church has always been in tribulation. According to a few verses, God considers the entire church age "tribulation." But there is a great difference in "tribulation" and the wrath of God. I think scripture is clear that we are not here during the time of His wrath. I am further convinced by scripture that the entire 70th week is His wrath.

That all stops when He comes. It is the end. WRONG! He comes as per 1 Thes. just before wrath but ONLY to the clouds and before the 70th week. So it is NOT "the end." Try as you might, you cannot squeeze two more comings into one.

There is no 7 years tribulation in the Bible. Perhaps, but there is certainly 7 years of the 70th week. John shows us the second half 5 times and in three different ways, and Daniel gave us the last half twice. It is not hard to multiply 3.5 by 2 and get 7. It is not hard to multiply 42 months by 2 and get 84/12 = 7. Same with the 1260 days.

John has clearly laid out the entire 70th week with the 7th seal to the 7th vial. The trumpet judgments are in the first half and the vials in the last half. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet: it will sound in heaven the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

(1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ) How do you know this is truth and a ruler to measure truth? However, Putting end times scriptures together:

The church is waiting at the 5th seal for the final martyr.

Suddenly the dead in Christ rise. This ENDS the church age and so no more martyrs. The dead in Christ rising will cause a worldwide earthquake. Those who are alive and in Christ will feel the ground begin to shake, but they are caught up. Those left behind cannot escape this sudden destruction earthquake. It is Paul's rapture / gathering. (The resurrected dead and the alive and changed are gathered together to meet Christ in the cloud.)

John's next event:

The 6th seal starts the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord
The 7th seal begins the 70th week. 3.5 years or 1260 days later:
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. 1260 days later:
The 7th vial ends the week - 7 long years later. "The trib" is over. The days of great tribulation are over.
Rev. 19: Jesus returns.
It is all plain and simple.

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That is typical ad-hoc Dispy hermeneunics. That is why many of us have abandoned that school of thought.

What scriptural warrant is there for, in unprecedented manner, decapitating this harmonious cohesive Messianic prophecy, aimlessly and indefinitely projecting the final week 2000 years+ into the unknown to a supposed end-time 7 year period, when it was perfectly fulfilled in the life and time of our Lord’s ministry, especially when there is absolutely NO corroborated in the New Testament for this 70th week gap-theory. As we have already stated, probably, the most distasteful aspect of this corrupt teaching is how they corruptly attribute it to anti-Christ at the end when it explicitly relates to Christ and His atonement 2000 years ago? To be honest, with this form of hermeneutics you could potentially corrupt any Old Testament passage and apply it to whatever time-period or matter one wishes.

The text does not in any way demand a gap; the Futurists unilaterally (without any scriptural warrant and for his own reason) chooses to insert one there in order to support his unsound theology. Those who do or condone such are unquestionably gap-theorists.

The text does demand – “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to (1) finish the transgression, and to (2) make an end of sins, and to (3) make reconciliation for iniquity, and to (4) bring in everlasting righteousness, and to (5) seal up the vision and prophecy, and to (6) anoint the most Holy” (Daniel 9:24).

These 6 things elements must therefore be fulfilled (1) in Messiah, and (2) must come mid-way through the final week. The desolation is not within the 70 weeks, it is the visible result of the fulfilment of numbers 1-6 in the midst of the week i.e. the rendering of the temple’s former use obsolete.

What is the greater abomination, rejecting the once all-sufficient sacrifice of Calvary, as the Jews evidently did (and are doing), or abolishing or rejecting any idolatrous animal sacrifices in an imaginary temple? The Pretrib scenario is fanciful anyway as the temple has been (and is being) built – Christ’s body.

The overspreading of abominations” was the rebellious idolatrous continuing of the temple sacrifices by the Jews after they were abolished at Calvary. And despite God allowing them time to repent in the intervening 40-year period (AD 30-AD 70), they stubbornly rebelled. The blasphemous continuing of the old order – the abolished (imperfect) sacrifices – occasioned the destruction of the temple – 40 being a perfect probationary period. When the practising of the temple sacrifices had reached their allotted time-span, God destroyed them and the temple.

iamlamad said:

OK, then I will say there are many passages that teach pretrib. You read a verse and say "clearly postrib" and I read the same verse and say "not so fast." A great example is the gathering in Matthew 24: there is no scriptural proof that is Paul's rapture, and much scriptural proof it cannot be.

Agreed: the church has always been in tribulation. According to a few verses, God considers the entire church age "tribulation." But there is a great difference in "tribulation" and the wrath of God. I think scripture is clear that we are not here during the time of His wrath. I am further convinced by scripture that the entire 70th week is His wrath.

That all stops when He comes. It is the end. WRONG! He comes as per 1 Thes. just before wrath but ONLY to the clouds and before the 70th week. So it is NOT "the end." Try as you might, you cannot squeeze two more comings into one.

There is no 7 years tribulation in the Bible. Perhaps, but there is certainly 7 years of the 70th week. John shows us the second half 5 times and in three different ways, and Daniel gave us the last half twice. It is not hard to multiply 3.5 by 2 and get 7. It is not hard to multiply 42 months by 2 and get 84/12 = 7. Same with the 1260 days.

John has clearly laid out the entire 70th week with the 7th seal to the 7th vial. The trumpet judgments are in the first half and the vials in the last half. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet: it will sound in heaven the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

(1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ) How do you know this is truth and a ruler to measure truth? However, Putting end times scriptures together:

The church is waiting at the 5th seal for the final martyr.

Suddenly the dead in Christ rise. This ENDS the church age and so no more martyrs. The dead in Christ rising will cause a worldwide earthquake. Those who are alive and in Christ will feel the ground begin to shake, but they are caught up. Those left behind cannot escape this sudden destruction earthquake. It is Paul's rapture / gathering. (The resurrected dead and the alive and changed are gathered together to meet Christ in the cloud.)

John's next event:

The 6th seal starts the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord
The 7th seal begins the 70th week. 3.5 years or 1260 days later:
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. 1260 days later:
The 7th vial ends the week - 7 long years later. "The trib" is over. The days of great tribulation are over.
Rev. 19: Jesus returns.
It is all plain and simple.

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There is no such thing as "Paul's rapture" or even a "rapture" in the original Greek. That was taken from a translation of a translation and is man-made, not God-breathed. I prefer the biblical phrases 'caught up', 'catching away' or our 'gathering together'. The word rapture is an extra-biblical term and is so associated with Pretrib error.

Dispensationalist Pretrib writers wrongly argue that Revelation 4:1 is the secret rapture, and that Revelation 4-19 is a harmonious chronological 7-year tribulation period. However, there isn’t one single reference to a seven-year tribulation in the book of Revelation as there also isn’t in the whole of the New Testament. In fact, there is only one reference to the term seven-years in the New Testament in Luke 2:36. It describes “Anna” living with her “husband seven years from her virginity.” No other reference!!! When Pretribber are pressed they quote Daniel 9 which (1) is an historic account that has already been fulfilled, (2) which related to Messiah’s first Coming and which makes no reference to a supposed rapture and a third Coming of Christ.

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

iamlamad said:

OK, then I will say there are many passages that teach pretrib. You read a verse and say "clearly postrib" and I read the same verse and say "not so fast." A great example is the gathering in Matthew 24: there is no scriptural proof that is Paul's rapture, and much scriptural proof it cannot be.

Agreed: the church has always been in tribulation. According to a few verses, God considers the entire church age "tribulation." But there is a great difference in "tribulation" and the wrath of God. I think scripture is clear that we are not here during the time of His wrath. I am further convinced by scripture that the entire 70th week is His wrath.

That all stops when He comes. It is the end. WRONG! He comes as per 1 Thes. just before wrath but ONLY to the clouds and before the 70th week. So it is NOT "the end." Try as you might, you cannot squeeze two more comings into one.

There is no 7 years tribulation in the Bible. Perhaps, but there is certainly 7 years of the 70th week. John shows us the second half 5 times and in three different ways, and Daniel gave us the last half twice. It is not hard to multiply 3.5 by 2 and get 7. It is not hard to multiply 42 months by 2 and get 84/12 = 7. Same with the 1260 days.

John has clearly laid out the entire 70th week with the 7th seal to the 7th vial. The trumpet judgments are in the first half and the vials in the last half. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet: it will sound in heaven the moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God.

(1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ) How do you know this is truth and a ruler to measure truth? However, Putting end times scriptures together:

The church is waiting at the 5th seal for the final martyr.

Suddenly the dead in Christ rise. This ENDS the church age and so no more martyrs. The dead in Christ rising will cause a worldwide earthquake. Those who are alive and in Christ will feel the ground begin to shake, but they are caught up. Those left behind cannot escape this sudden destruction earthquake. It is Paul's rapture / gathering. (The resurrected dead and the alive and changed are gathered together to meet Christ in the cloud.)

John's next event:

The 6th seal starts the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord
The 7th seal begins the 70th week. 3.5 years or 1260 days later:
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. 1260 days later:
The 7th vial ends the week - 7 long years later. "The trib" is over. The days of great tribulation are over.
Rev. 19: Jesus returns.
It is all plain and simple.

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1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

Bible Highlighter said:

The Bible is one of the top selling books. It does not invalidate the Bible because it is a top seller. Also, I remember reading an article once (cannot find it now) whereby the Rapture can be found in history before Darby. But besides that, even if this was not the case, new things are discovered all the time in Scripture. What the early church knew can very well be re-discovered in our recent years.

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I think the book you are talking about is the one written by the Jesuit Manuel de Lacunza under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible. It s a Jesuit invention!

Bible Highlighter said:

Then there is Enoch. Enoch was taken by God whereby He did not see death. This is a type of the Rapture. Methuselah dying is a type of the body of Christ that is left behind in the Rapture during the time by the Antichrist and who also missed out on the Mid-Trib Gathering up by angels. These believers will have a third chance to be faithful to God, but it will cost them their lives. Also, other new converts to Christ will arise during the Mid Tribulation, as well (Who are not looking yet for their Lord). Many saints will be killed by the Antichrist (This is a type of Methuselah dying before the Judgment comes). Noah, and his family being preserved through the Ark is a type of the 144,000 Messianic Jews who are sealed or protected against the Judgments in God's Wrath. How long they are there is unknown to me at this time. But the point here is that these are types. Parallels pointing to what is to come. For God's Word is consistent.

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This is all man-made terms and man-made speculations. That is all Pretrib have. They force the Bible to say what it doesn't or will not.

iamlamad said:

6. A posttrib rapture makes attending the marriage and supper, which will take place in heaven before Christ descends, IMPOSSIBLE to attend.

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Really? How? Where is your rapture before Revelation 19?

Bible Highlighter said:

My Quick Defense of the Pre-Trib Rapture:


There are two calls:

The Wedding (Marriage) Call for the Bride:
(A raising up of the body of believers that can happen at any day or hour that we do not know):
(This Rapture or call is for those who were Faithful to the Rapture & in living holy):

• Matthew 25:10

"And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut."​

The Call After the Wedding:
(Middle of Tribulation, i.e. Olivet Discourse description of angels gathering the elect up):
(This is the Call for the Servant Who Reformed After Being Left Behind from The Rapture; This servant said that the Lord delayed His coming and they had their portion with the unbelievers by being left behind because of their unbelief):
(These servants are not called the "bride" because they were unfaithful to the call to marriage with the Rapture):

• Luke 12:36

"And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately."​

Note: One call is for the actual wedding or marriage (Matthew 25:10), and one call is after the wedding or marriage (Luke 12:36) (Note: Some Modern Translations add "wedding feast" to Luke 12:36, but this is not what the King James says, which is a trusted translation that existed long before the Modern Translations showed up). The problem with these Modern Translations rendering on saying that this "call" happens after the "Wedding feast" is in the fact that the "Wedding feast" is the battle of Armageddon (Compare Revelation 19:9 with Revelation 19:17). This would mean there will be a call after Armageddon (Which does not make any sense).

The Restrainer Will Be Removed:

• 2 Thessalonians 2:7 (NASB), 2 Thessalonians 2:8

7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way."
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"​

Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 suggests that the Antichrist will not appear until the Restrainer has been removed. I believe this "Restrainer" to be the Spirit indwelling the church body. When the church (filled with the Spirit) is removed, the Antichrist will come (or be revealed).

Promise of the Rapture:
(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):

• 1 Thessalonians 1:10

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."​

• 1 Thessalonians 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
​

The Rapture is a New Mystery Revealed:

• 1 Corinthians 15:51

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
​

Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:
(In order to miss out on the 7 Year Tribulation):

• Matthew 25:13

"Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

​

We are told to pray so that we may escape all these things mentioned within the Tribulation:

• Luke 21:36

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
​

What things shall we escape if we pray?

• Luke 21:10

"Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom"
​

• Revelation 6:4

"...and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another..."
​

• Luke 21:11

"And great earthquakes..."
​

• Revelation 6:12

"...and, lo, there was a great earthquake;"
​

• Luke 21:11

"...and famines..."
​

• Revelation 6:5-6

"And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."​

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When is the marriage?

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready [hetoimos] went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

This parable speaks of Christ’s Coming and shows that He is Coming for those that are ready. The 5 virgins in this earthly story are a spiritual picture of the bride of Christ. The parable of the virgins supports the idea of a climactic Coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

Where in Revelation do we find the bride of Christ?

Undoubtedly the Church is Christ’s bride, but in Pretrib thinking the Church has already be removed before the tribulation. Pretrib theology has Christ having 2 brides, something that is absurd, unknown to Scripture, and extra-biblical.

In the 6th of 7 recaps in Revelation, Revelation 19:7-9 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready (hetoimazo Strong’s 2090). And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

This is the wedding! The marriage of the Lamb and the marriage supper occurs at Revelation 19 (the end of the Pretrib tribulation, not the beginning as they intimate). This is when this union is consummated. The perfected Church (or bride) is joined to her bridegroom (Christ) forever in glorification.

In the 7th of 7 recaps in Revelation, Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5 confirms, speaking about the second coming and the connected ushering of the new heaven and new earth: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away (or departed); and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, [hetoimazo] as a bride adorned for her husband And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.”

The new heavens and new earth come with the appearing of Christ.

Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: “Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

Not only is it clear that “the marriage of the Lamb” to “his wife” is referring to the final consummation of the relationship between Christ and His bride – the Church – at the second coming. But we see the status of the wife; “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” The wife is the body of believers down through the years, which have placed their eternity on the blood of Christ, whether in the old or the new economy.

The wedding therefore is the consummating of the union between bridegroom and the bride or the catching away of the saints.