iamlamad

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The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:
Did you not understand the difference in being seals on the forehead by angels and sealed in the human spirit by the Holy Spirit? This is two different kinds of sealing.

The church age will end at the 6th seal and start of the Day of wrath. These are sealed after the church has been caught up. Therefore I disagree with you.
 
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iamlamad

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Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and oneness of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.
No doubt about it…the 144,000 is not a part of "the church."
Revelation 14 shows us the VERY SAME 144,000, but this time they are seen in heaven. This makes sense becaue they are called "firstfruits" meaning they will arrive in heaven first - before their Jewish brothers.

I will stick to just what is written and not try to extrapolate: they are 12,000 from each tribe as written. They are descendants of Jacob. They are NOT Gentiles, nor are they a part of the Gentile church of today - nor will they ever be. The church age will end at the pretrib rapture, a moment before the 6th seal begins wrath.

I don't think those that are martyred (beheaded) by the Beast will become a part of the church. They will be resurrected with all the rest of the Old Testament saints. I believe this will take place at the 7th vial.
 
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GospelS

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Did you not understand the difference in being seals on the forehead by angels and sealed in the human spirit by the Holy Spirit? This is two different kinds of sealing.

Thanks for sharing. I understand the difference. I just think that God selects a group of people who He already sealed by the Holy Spirit and then additionally seal them on their foreheads also by the angels in the last days of this age.
 
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jgr

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Did you not understand the difference in being seals on the forehead by angels and sealed in the human spirit by the Holy Spirit? This is two different kinds of sealing.

The church age will end at the 6th seal and start of the Day of wrath. These are sealed after the church has been caught up. Therefore I disagree with you.

Revelation 7
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

One does not qualify as a servant of our God until one has first believed and received the seal of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
 
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martymonster

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They (the 144,000) have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as first-fruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless (Revelation 14).

We know God will set apart 12,000 from each tribe and seal them, the identity of whom is known only to God, to prepare the way for His coming (Revelation 7). God keeps them to Himself to speak for Him before all people as they are His first-fruits of the end time harvest and prepares them for a special task during the Great Tribulation. I can imagine they will be severely trained and tested. They could be mocked by some people who call themselves Christians/God’s people just as it had always happened in the history with the prophets.

Now, they could be here today and considering the literal meaning of this and most Christians choosing celibacy now, could this be a hint of the soon coming of our Lord and the reason why He is enabling some men to remain celibate at the present time? In Torah, all firstborn males/sons belong to God. We also read in the history that some men made themselves eunuchs so they could serve as special agents of king/in a kingdom. Jesus said some men will live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 19:12).

Please share your thoughts.

You are spot on, except for you main point. God's elect being virgins is not literal, it's spiritual. God's elect keep themselves from spiritual fornication with the harlot (Unfaithful Christian Church)
 
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jgr

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I will stick to just what is written and not try to extrapolate: they are 12,000 from each tribe as written. They are descendants of Jacob. They are NOT Gentiles, nor are they a part of the Gentile church of today - nor will they ever be.

They are the faithful and obedient saints within the OT nation of Israel, comprised of both Jew and Gentile from its birth, and throughout its history.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.


There is no "Gentile church", nor has there ever been. The Church born at Pentecost in Acts 2 was comprised overwhelmingly of Israelites, and all Jews who have come to Christ since that time, to this moment in time, and to the end of time, have become and will become members of a body in Christ wherein ethnic distinctions between Jew and Gentile cease to exist.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us.

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
 
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GospelS

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You are spot on, except for you main point. God's elect being virgins is not literal, it's spiritual. God's elect keep themselves from spiritual fornication with the harlot (Unfaithful Christian Church)

Thanks for sharing.
 
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Paulus59

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Copied & pasted this from GotQuestions.

*************************************************************​

Question: "Who are the 144,000?"

Answer:
The 144,000 are first mentioned in Revelation 7:4, “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.” This passage comes in an interlude between the judgment of the sixth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:12–17) and the opening of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1).

How one answers the question “who are the 144,000?” depends on which interpretive approach one takes to the book of Revelation. The futurist approach, which we consider the best, interprets the 144,000 literally. When taken at face value, Revelation 7:4 seems to speak of 144,000 actual people living during the end-times tribulation. Nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the children of Israel, according to verses 5–8.

These 144,000 Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God. They are kept safe from the divine judgments and from the wrath of the Antichrist. They can freely perform their mission during the tribulation. It had been previously prophesied that Israel would repent and turn back to God (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of that redeemed Israel. Their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the “heavenly hope.” Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the “earthly hope”—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. It is true that there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:2), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent, Daniel 7:27), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation, Revelation 20:4). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will be established at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God, and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13–14) will become ours, and we will be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

Hope you find this informative?


*************************************************************​
 
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GospelS

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Copied & pasted this from GotQuestions.

*************************************************************​

Question: "Who are the 144,000?"

Answer:
The 144,000 are first mentioned in Revelation 7:4, “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.” This passage comes in an interlude between the judgment of the sixth seal of the tribulation (Revelation 6:12–17) and the opening of the seventh seal (Revelation 8:1).

How one answers the question “who are the 144,000?” depends on which interpretive approach one takes to the book of Revelation. The futurist approach, which we consider the best, interprets the 144,000 literally. When taken at face value, Revelation 7:4 seems to speak of 144,000 actual people living during the end-times tribulation. Nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the children of Israel, according to verses 5–8.

These 144,000 Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God. They are kept safe from the divine judgments and from the wrath of the Antichrist. They can freely perform their mission during the tribulation. It had been previously prophesied that Israel would repent and turn back to God (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of that redeemed Israel. Their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.

Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the “heavenly hope.” Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the “earthly hope”—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. It is true that there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:2), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent, Daniel 7:27), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation, Revelation 20:4). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will be established at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God, and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13–14) will become ours, and we will be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

Hope you find this informative?


*************************************************************​

Thanks for sharing.
 
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Need answers

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Revelation 14:4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,


James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[a] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


First fruits of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
 
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GospelS

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Revelation 14:4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,


James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[a] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.


First fruits of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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iamlamad

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Thanks for sharing. I understand the difference. I just think that God selects a group of people who He already sealed by the Holy Spirit and then additionally seal them on their foreheads also by the angels in the last days of this age.
It is good you understand the difference. Do you also understand that for the most part the church of today is a GENTILE church? Oh, there are a few Jews who have become born again, but very few as a percentage.

Yet, those sealed are descendants of Jacob. There is a difference.

Do you understand the purpose for their sealing was for protection during the trumpet judgments? The truth is, the church will be raptured before ANY trumpets are sounded.
 
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GospelS

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It is good you understand the difference. Do you also understand that for the most part the church of today is a GENTILE church? Oh, there are a few Jews who have become born again, but very few as a percentage.

Yet, those sealed are descendants of Jacob. There is a difference.

Do you understand the purpose for their sealing was for protection during the trumpet judgments? The truth is, the church will be raptured before ANY trumpets are sounded.

Thanks for sharing. I think as the prophecy unfolds the Holy Spirit will reveal much greater truths as needed at the appointed times, even as we grow and mature in the Lord.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Thanks for sharing. I think as the prophecy unfolds the Holy Spirit will reveal much greater truths as needed at the appointed times, even as we grow and mature in the Lord.
It would seem in any case that some of the - apocalyptic - events in Revelation and in Matthew 24, etc., are not necessarily talking about the church (by definition a heavenly people), as opposed to a remnant of Israel on earth. We in the church, with its pilgrim, heavenly character, keep looking unto Jesus (Hebrews 12.2) 'till He come' (1 Corinthians 11.26).
 
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