What is your view of atonement?

rturner76 said:

Correct, the Ransom theory was being applied in the Church until the Substitutionary Atonement theory was published.

Almost all of the atonement theory is based on Paul's writings on "Participation." THrough CHrist we participate in faithfulness.

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Death didn't come all of a sudden. Instead death followed God's wrath. Wrath followed the knowledge of good and evil (kge).

But christus victor ridiculously & abruptly jumps to address death without addressing kge & God's wrath. Why? Isn't it absurd?

rturner76 said:

I was always under the impression that Calvin said we are exclusively under Penal Substitution but the above also talks about Satisfaction through Christ's obedience. His view is not so extreme as I have been lead to believe by some of the things I have read.

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I think people read Calvin through the eyes of later Reformed writers. That's generally not a good idea.

Luther's position is disputed. Aulen said he supported Christus Victor, but that's not so clear. Did Martin Luther teach penal substitution?

Si_monfaith said:

Death didn't come all of a sudden. Instead death followed God's wrath. Wrath followed the knowledge of good and evil (kge).

But christus victor ridiculously & abruptly jumps to address death without addressing kge & God's wrath. Why? Isn't it absurd?

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In Paul at least, God's wrath is against sin. If we are no longer sinners through dying and rising with Christ, there is no longer any cause for wrath.

I'm not sure how the knowledge of good and evil fits in here. As far as I can tell, it's a problem when humans try to understand good and evil independent of God. But that's not the case with someone who is living in faith.

Do we have here a difference in understanding of forgiveness? My understanding of Jesus' teaching is that God forgives anyone who repents freely. Do some people here think he can't or doesn't forgive without punishment?

Paul speaks of being bought with a price (1 Cor 6:20 and 7:23). However I understand that as referring to buying a slave and freeing them. Indeed that's right there in 7:22. Paul seeings Christ's death as freeing us from slavery to sin, as per Rom 6:1-14.

Similarly, he took on our sin, but he did that so he could defeat sin, not because God couldn't forgive until someone was punished.

Of what value to all of mankind would Christ's sacrifice have been had he run from the Crucifixion and disobeyed God after living a life of obedience and sacrifice? As He said, He could have called legions of angels to his defense. He could have wiped out all of those who stood against him. That was not His purpose on earth. He had to live as a human, suffer the worst pain one could go through at the time and in that suffering, not once did he renounce the truth of who He was or why He was here. Not once did He falter. His body had to voluntarily go through it so that we didn't.

hedrick said:

In Paul at least, God's wrath is against sin. If we are no longer sinners through dying and rising with Christ, there is no longer any cause for wrath.

I'm not sure how the knowledge of good and evil fits in here. As far as I can tell, it's a problem when humans try to understand good and evil independent of God. But that's not the case with someone who is living in faith.

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hedrick said:

In Paul at least, God's wrath is against sin

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What sin Adam Eve committed for God's wrath to come upon them?

hedrick said:

If we are no longer sinners through dying and rising with Christ

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Without being freed from the law, how can you be free from sin when sin gets life through the law (Romans 7: 9: "but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died").

hedrick said:

there is no longer any cause for wrath.

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But christus victor denies wrath let alone no longer have any cause for wrath!!!

hedrick said:

As far as I can tell, it's a problem when humans try to understand good and evil independent of God

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Didn't they try to understand good & evil independent of God's command making that forbidden knowledge a problem?

hedrick said:

But that's not the case with someone who is living in faith.

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Isn't faith trusting in the good works of Christ to please God & diagonally opposite to trying to please God by doing good & shunning evil through the knowledge of good and evil? How can both go together?

Si_monfaith said:

Didn't Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead by a spoken word of authority? So why did He not defeat death by His word of authority & instead die on the cross in order to defeat death?

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I see two issues here, having missed the connection to atonement.
<<Didn't Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead by a spoken word of authority?>> This does not tell us how the miracle was achieved or who exactly was spoken to (presumably angels moving faster than light). But there is a distinction between miracle and magic; a miracle is real but above our comprehension, where magic is always a deception.

<<So why did He not defeat death by His word of authority>> A better question is "Why did He create death in the first place?" Death was given a life from creation to the end of time, around six thousand years when death is to be thrown into the lake of fire; many things happen during this six thousand year period. One thing is each of us live to be judged; another thing is the kingdom of God is constructed; Why, always to get the right answer one has to ask the right question, and only God could answer, but it probably has to do with the war in heaven.

marineimaging said:

Of what value to all of mankind would Christ's sacrifice have been had he run from the Crucifixion and disobeyed God after living a life of obedience and sacrifice? As He said, He could have called legions of angels to his defense. He could have wiped out all of those who stood against him. That was not His purpose on earth. He had to live as a human, suffer the worst pain one could go through at the time and in that suffering, not once did he renounce the truth of who He was or why He was here. Not once did He falter. His body had to voluntarily go through it so that we didn't.

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I am not suggesting what you say is wrong and I have missed the context. Jesus's death was a price paid for us by our judge; our natural death is to do with expired time. what we are saved from is the second death, which more than half of all who have lived, die.

Si_monfaith said:

Was God angry with Adam Eve for starting to have the forbidden knowledge of good and evil & cursed them with sufferings and death?

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I am inclined to think it was necessary for Adam and Eve to do what they did, else it would reflect badly, on God's ability to create what he wanted.

hedrick said:

I think people read Calvin through the eyes of later Reformed writers. That's generally not a good idea.

Luther's position is disputed. Aulen said he supported Christus Victor, but that's not so clear. Did Martin Luther teach penal substitution?

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I get the impression that Theologians dig their own grave. Calvin did make some interesting prophesies.

Atonement is to do with being one with God, and the covenant (which includes Christs blood) achieves this; so what do Theologians do; they abrogate that which could save them.

sparow said:

I see two issues here, having missed the connection to atonement.
<<Didn't Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead by a spoken word of authority?>> This does not tell us how the miracle was achieved or who exactly was spoken to (presumably angels moving faster than light). But there is a distinction between miracle and magic; a miracle is real but above our comprehension, where magic is always a deception.

<<So why did He not defeat death by His word of authority>> A better question is "Why did He create death in the first place?" Death was given a life from creation to the end of time, around six thousand years when death is to be thrown into the lake of fire; many things happen during this six thousand year period. One thing is each of us live to be judged; another thing is the kingdom of God is constructed; Why, always to get the right answer one has to ask the right question, and only God could answer, but it probably has to do with the war in heaven.

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So you don't have an answer to the following question?

Didn't Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead by a spoken word of authority? So why did He not defeat death by His word of authority & instead die on the cross in order to defeat death?

Si_monfaith said:

So you don't have an answer to the following question?

Didn't Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead by a spoken word of authority? So why did He not defeat death by His word of authority & instead die on the cross in order to defeat death?

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I thought I answered the question. So again; death was created for a purpose; until the purpose is complete death will continue.

Revelation 20:14-15 (NKJV)
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

rturner76 said:

This question has been fascinating to me since my further study into Catholicism revealed the view something like the "Satisfaction Theory" or that is the classic description that comes the closest to what I have come to understand. Christ's infinite love and obedience satisfied God's judgement not his pain and suffering. through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Colossians 1:20

That is my personal view of Christ;s atonement, what is yours?

• • The Martyr Theory: Christ gave up His life for a principle of truth that was opposed to the spirit of His day. This view is usually found outside of mainstream Christianity.

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This single topic/doctrine is why there is a Seventh-day Adventist church - it is as much as focus in Adventism as Mary is a topic in Catholicism or OSAS is a focus for Presbyterians and Baptists.

To understand the doctrine - start with Lev 16 "The Day of Atonement" to see what it tells you about the work of Christ in Atonement.

Si_monfaith said:

So you don't have an answer to the following question?

Didn't Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead by a spoken word of authority? So why did He not defeat death by His word of authority & instead die on the cross in order to defeat death?

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God is the one who pronounced the sentence of death in Genesis 3 and in fact stationed angels at the gate to Eden so that mankind would not have access to the Tree of Life and "Live Forever".

IF the entire problem to be solved was "please speak death to be at an end" then it could have been "ended" as soon as it began - in Gen 3.

Christ's death on the cross did not save mankind from the first death - He died to save "whosoever will" from the second death -- the one we see in Rev 20.

Christ said this of Lazarus

1. "Our friend Lazarus sleeps... I go that I may wake him" John 11.

2. He also says "Lazarus is dead"

3.And He says "he who believes on me shall never die".

His first statement speaks of the condition of man in death. Also found in 1 Thess 4:13-18

His second statement refers to the first death - as we find it in Romans 5 and it applies to all mankind, the saints and the wicked.

His third statement refers to the fact that Christ pays our debt of sin in the second death (of Rev 20) so that anyone who accepts the Gospel is spared having to pay that debt.

Death is the 'last enemy" to be conquered - 1 Cor 15.

And in Rev 21 we see "no more death" -- which happens right after the Lake of Fire event of Rev 20 ends.

In the OP we see some errors listed - but also a bit of truth in almost every case. So then - leaving out the options that have almost no truth at all to them - I re-present the list in the OP where error is removed in each case and only Truth left in

• The Ransom Theory: Christ offered himself as a ransom (Mark 10:45). The wages of sin is death and Satan claims those who like-him - choose rebellion and sin should be members of his kingdom and under his rule. God's Law (not Satan) demands death of the sinner as "payment" -- "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23. So that His Own law is upheld rather than destroyed by the Gospel - He had to pay the full price demanded by the Law in the case of the sinner. And pay that full debt for all.

• The Recapitulation Theory: . Christ is the second Adam as we see in Romans 5. As in Adam all die - so in Christ all may be made alive and have eternal life - if they accept the Gospel

• The Satisfaction (or Commercial) Theory: God's Law (Justice) could only be satisfied by the second death debt paid for every sin of every sinner in all of time... only one being in the universe could pay such a price. God Himself. God so loved that "He gave" not "That He demanded" .

• The Penal-Substitution Theory: penal substitution pays the debt we owe in the person of Christ "nailing our certificate of debt" to the cross. Col 2. Our speeding-ticket, our debt demanded by the LAW of God for the sin we committed
  • The Moral-Example Theory (or Moral-Influence Theory): Christ lived and died to provide a perfect example for man 1 John 2 says we who are born again, and claim to know Christ, "should walk as he walked". And we are to "Take up our cross" and follow Christ Matthew 10
  • The Governmental Theory: Christ an example of suffering to exhibit to erring man that sin is displeasing to him. God's moral government of the universe made it necessary for him to evince his wrath against sin -- and so we have the lake of fire - the second death for all sinners, both demons and wicked men. So to save mankind and still uphold the Law of God that rules the universe Christ died to show that the debt the law demanded is paid rather than God's law bent or abolished in order to save the sinner
• • The Declaratory Theory: Christ died to show men how greatly God loves them. What love is this - that God died for us - while we were yet sinners Romans 5.

hedrick said:

Paul seeings Christ's death as freeing us from slavery to sin, as per Rom 6:1-14. Similarly, he took on our sin, but he did that so he could defeat sin, not because God couldn't forgive until someone was punished.

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In what sense did Christ defeat sin?

Andrewn said:

In what sense did Christ defeat sin?

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Paul saw sin as owning us as slaves. Christ freed us from that slavery.

What does this metaphor actually mean? I think both Jesus and Paul saw individuals as having a primary orientation, either as followers of Jesus or as opposed to him. This doesn't mean that followers are sinless, as Paul acknowledged, nor that sinners never do anything good. (See Luke 6:32) Paul's metaphor of being trapped as slaves needing rescue suggests that it's not something we can just stop. Perhaps something like an addiction.

Paul suggests (e.g. in Rom 6) that Christ's death and resurrection gets us out of slavery, because we participate in him. I recommend Calvin's commentary on the early part of Rom 6. He speaks of our fellowship with the death of Christ, "which is followed by a joint-participation also of eternal life." In my opinion Paul never explains in detail just how this works, but it is based on our being in Christ and participating with him. He says in Rom 6:4 that we are buried with him, and that Christ being raised allows us new life. In 6:6 we died with him so that "the body of sin" is destroyed and we are freed from sin. Why? 6:7 "For whoever has died is freed from sin." However this works (he doesn't say), dying and rising with Christ moves us into a realm where sin no longer can hold people in bondage, even though we still remain imperfect.

hedrick said:

Paul suggests (e.g. in Rom 6) that Christ's death and resurrection gets us out of slavery, because we participate in him. I recommend Calvin's commentary on the early part of Rom 6. He speaks of our fellowship with the death of Christ, "which is followed by a joint-participation also of eternal life." In my opinion Paul never explains in detail just how this works, but it is based on our being in Christ and participating with him.

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This sounds like the Recapitulation Theory, very nicely presented.

Andrewn said:

This sounds like the Recapitulation Theory, very nicely presented.

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Perhaps, but I think participation is the key element in Rom 6, and in Calvin's explanation. Some people consider it a separate model.

Si_monfaith said:

So you don't have an answer to the following question?

Didn't Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead by a spoken word of authority? So why did He not defeat death by His word of authority & instead die on the cross in order to defeat death?

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Christ's death defeated death precisely because He is God - the very Source of Life itself.

Sometimes they use a balloon to illustrate it as an object lesson. Death "swallowed" a man but encountered God. In the same way, you can blow air into a balloon and the balloon can contain it all. But you can blow so much air into a balloon that it overwhelms the balloon and bursts it entirely.

That is how Christ defeated death through His own death.