Questions About Hell

FineLinen

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Only God and his attributes are eternal.

His mercy endures forever. Ps.118, Ps.136
His loving kindness is everlasting. Ps.118, Ps.136
Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:13

Dear Saint: That is a fact! Only the Author and Finisher is eternal. He IS the Aidios One.

In your noble work of Christ Triumphant summaries>>>

Let us next consider the true meaning of the words aion and aionios. These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators "everlasting,"" for ever and ever :" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for aion means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective aionios means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and never " everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter nine --- bold emphasis mine
 
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FineLinen said:
Dear Saint: That is a fact! Only the Author and Finisher is eternal. He IS the Aidios One.
In your noble work of Christ Triumphant summaries>>>
Let us next consider the true meaning of the words aion and aionios. These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators "everlasting,"" for ever and ever :" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for aion means "an age," a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective aionios means "of the age," "age-long," "aeonian," and never " everlasting" (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God.
Repeating the same copy/paste over and over and over does not make it true.
I have conclusively shown from the New Testament alone, no quotes from any scholars, lexicons, concordances etc. only 24 verses from the NT that aionios means eternal, everlasting etc. and my post has never been addressed or refuted.
.....This statement is nonsense."the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God."
There is no such rule in any Greek grammar. It is made up for the sole purpose of supporting UR doctrine.
 
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Only God and his attributes are eternal....
404 Error!
In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
List of verses cited:
1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36 , John 4:14, John 6:27
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
…..In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[Character limit. Continued next post]
 
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Der Alte

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[Previous post continued]
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[24]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[25]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent
"The double negative signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally."
 
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FineLinen

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It is so sad the Author of all is not able to complete His great Plan as the Finisher of all. He has begun what He cannot complete?

Alas, such is the view of those who cannot conceive the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ completing what He has begun with flair!

Every knee bows, every tongue confesses in worship, in union with His Name, You are Lord.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
It is so sad the Author of all is not able to complete His great Plan as the Finisher of all. He has begun what He cannot complete?
Alas, such is the view of those who cannot conceive the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ completing what He has begun with flair!
Every knee bows, every tongue confesses in worship, in union with His Name, You are Lord.
It is sad when so many people think by repeatedly spamming their unsupported opinion they can convince others that UR is scriptural.
 
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FineLinen

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Is God a Failure?

Now that’s a pretty poignant question. Or is it an insinuation? An inference? Or implication? Or is it truth, as many would have you believe? Have you ever heard a sermon by that title? I doubt if you have. But I’m certain you have heard many a sermon which has been riddled with such implications.

Allow me to rephrase the question: Have you ever heard a sermon stating that if you don’t accept Jesus, you’ll burn forever in hell? Ah, I knew I’d touch a raw nerve. You have, haven’t you? If you heard that God is going to lose so much as one individual to the devil forever, then God is a failure.

If you have heard that the heathen (who have never had an opportunity to hear of Jesus) will be tormented forever for not believing in Him, then you’ve heard that God is a failure. If you’ve heard that man’s puny will can withstand the omnipotent will of God, and that man’s will can paralyze God’s will, then you have heard that God is a failure.

If you’ve heard that the Adversary outsmarted God in the garden of Eden, if you’ve heard that God did not want Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then you’ve heard that God is a failure.

If you’ve ever heard anyone affirm that God will lose 95% of His created beings that He’s placed on planet earth, and will torment them forever, then you’ve clearly heard that God is a failure.

If the Good Shepherd is not willing that any should perish, and yet gets weary and gives up before He finds the last sheep that’s lost, then you know that God is a failure.

If no one can come to Jesus except the Father draws him, and if the Father - eventually - does not draw every single person, then God is a failure.

What is the response of your heart to the poised question: Is God a failure? Ah, my heart says, “Nay, a billion nays.” My heart has fallen in love with a God who does all things perfectly, and one day all will be made plain, and in the end He will become ‘All in All’ and for that day my heart does wait and meanwhile I rejoice and endure because I see Him, the invisible One.

By faith I see a Master Plan for the ages and beyond, and I know I am part of that plan, and for this I whisper, “Thank you, Jesus.” I sing a song to my Beloved, Hallelujah!

In Love with Him - Eleanor Garrod-
 
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com7fy8

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Questions Without Answers On Hell
But there are answers. But one thing you did not mention is how a number of people could not stand Jesus.

Jesus is the most beautifully wonderful loving and caring of all; yet, evil people could not stand Jesus, they tried to kill Jesus, and they hated Him.

They only wanted Him so they could kill Him.

So, how do you think it would be for these people to spend eternity with Jesus????

They could become as horrible as possible in Satan's self-seeking spirit, like how the flesh of a worm burns in sunshine which can help a plant to have life energy and to grow.

Already in this life ones are becoming "worse and worse" > 2 Timothy 3:13. In their resurrection they will reap so much more of however they really have been becoming > Galatians 6:7-8 >

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Galatians 6:7-8)

Are you open to the possibility of hell being remedial?
Now is the time (2 Corinthians 6:2) to seek God (Isaiah 55:6-7) for real correction > Hebrews 12:4-11.
 
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FineLinen

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But there are answers. But one thing you did not mention is how a number of people could not stand Jesus.

Jesus is the most beautifully wonderful loving and caring of all; yet, evil people could not stand Jesus, they tried to kill Jesus, and they hated Him.

They only wanted Him so they could kill Him.

So, how do you think it would be for these people to spend eternity with Jesus????

They could become as horrible as possible in Satan's self-seeking spirit, like how the flesh of a worm burns in sunshine which can help a plant to have life energy and to grow.

Already in this life ones are becoming "worse and worse" > 2 Timothy 3:13. In their resurrection they will reap so much more of however they really have been becoming > Galatians 6:7-8 >

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Galatians 6:7-8)

Now is the time (2 Corinthians 6:2) to seek God (Isaiah 55:6-7) for real correction > Hebrews 12:4-11.

Dear Com: There is but one way! The Unlimited God of Glory must change every last rotten and broken sinner by at-one-ment.

"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Dear Com: There is but one way! The Unlimited God of Glory must change every last rotten and broken sinner by at-one-ment.
"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."
If God is going to change every last rotten and broken sinner by at-one-ment even after death after they have been tossed in the lake of fire for some longer or shorter period, why doesn't God do that at-one-ment thing in this life so those rotten broken sinners don't get tossed in the lake of fire? Or does God want some people to be punished?
 
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FineLinen

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When the horrors of endless sin and pain are so stoutly defended on the (supposed) authority of the Bible, it is well to remember, that slavery was unanimously defended for more than fifteen hundred years on exactly similar grounds; so was the infliction of most cruel tortures; so was religious persecution with its indescribable horrors; so was the existence of witches, and the duty of burning them alive. Nay, every theologian in Europe was for centuries persuaded of the truth of actual sexual intercourse between evil spirits and men and women. "Holy men," you say, "everywhere defend endless pain and evil on the authority of Scripture." Holy men, I reply, have with absolute unanimity defended, on the authority of Scripture, tenets and practices so abominable that one shudders in attempting to recall them. -Christ Triumphant-
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen" said:
When the horrors of endless sin and pain are so stoutly defended on the (supposed) authority of the Bible, it is well to remember, that slavery was unanimously defended for more than fifteen hundred years on exactly similar grounds; so was the infliction of most cruel tortures; so was religious persecution with its indescribable horrors; so was the existence of witches, and the duty of burning them alive. Nay, every theologian in Europe was for centuries persuaded of the truth of actual sexual intercourse between evil spirits and men and women. "Holy men," you say, "everywhere defend endless pain and evil on the authority of Scripture." Holy men, I reply, have with absolute unanimity defended, on the authority of Scripture, tenets and practices so abominable that one shudders in attempting to recall them. -Christ Triumphant-
That is the logical fallacy of "False analogy." That many people erroneously tried to justify slavery from scripture does not prove that that any other belief is erroneous.
 
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Saint Steven

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1. As we are required to love our enemies, may we not safely infer that God loves His enemies? (Matt. 5:44)
Questions from the OP: Question #1 (quoted above)

The Damnationists make God, our loving heavenly Father, out to be worse than a pagan, or tax collector (traitor), with their eternal hell dogma. Loving our enemies is godly behavior. Meaning, it REFLECTS the CHARACTER of God.

On this basis, a forever burning hell makes no sense. A violation of God's character.

Matthew 5:44-48
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
 
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com7fy8

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Humans are the ones who have upheld wrong things. But God is the One who knows about hell and why hell.

Jesus on the cross suffered and died like He did, for us. If you claim God can not require suffering and dying for sin, then you might be someone who also throws out the Gospel and says people have misunderstood the Scriptures.
 
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Saint Steven

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2. If God loves His enemies, will He punish them more than will be for their good?
Questions from the OP: Question #2 (quoted above)

Even humankind calls prisons "corrective" facilities. There is a purpose for the punishment. Is humankind MORE humane than God? If any human proposed to do what God is being accused of with a forever burning hell, it would obviously be considered cruel and unusual punishment, and would not be allowed by human governments concerned about such things.
 
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FineLinen

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But humans can have quarantine, and ones in the quarantine can suffer torment.

Dear Com: I know of no individual in quarantine suffering "torment" of unending proportions with additional "torment" as an end in itself.
 
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Saint Steven

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But humans can have quarantine, and ones in the quarantine can suffer torment.
It is called solitary confinement. There are rules about such things as well. (for those concerned with humane treatment)
 
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com7fy8

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"torment" as an end in itself
The Bible does not say torment is an end in itself, in hell.

A person's own character determines if and how he or she can suffer spiritual torment.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

There are people who do not obey how God would correct them; so they stay in their selfish nature which makes them weak enough to suffer torment in fear > "fear of death" is slavery to Satan, by the way > Hebrews 2:14-15.

According to this scripture, God is compassionate; so He sent Jesus to save us from suffering the torment of "fear of death" and other torment which our selfish nature makes us degraded enough to suffer.
 
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The Bible does not say torment is an end in itself, in hell.

Dear Com: It is the ghastly dogma of unending torture by individuals who grasp the Father of all fathers as the Supreme Being of torture who are the problem!

All four hell's end, swallowed up in the One who does everything to perfection.

Behold, I make the radical all new!
 
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