Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

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claninja

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It has a near/far context. Its near context was God's judgements on Assyria and Babylon. However, like so much Old Testament vision, it is a precursor of something greater. Isaiah 13 has a 'far' context that is picked up again in chapter 34:4

"All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree."

It is picked up again by Jesus in Mark 13:25. Yes, I do take it literally. No, I dont apply it to to AD70.

I definitely agree there is a near/far context, as there is with most OT scripture. Isaiah 13 being about God's judgment on Babylon, which foreshadowed another future judgment, just as, for example, Moses lifted up a snake to heal the people, which foreshadowed Christ being lifted up.


However, I would disagree that it can't be applied to 66-70ad.


1.) Christ is quoting from Isaiah in regards to the tribulation of the olivet discourse, which many Amils agree, took place in 66-70ad. Jesus quotes from Isaiah as being "immediately" after the tribulation of Jerusalem. This is in agreement with the 6th seal of revelation

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Revelation 6:12-13 And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind


2.) Jesus quotes from hosea as being fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, which again fits with the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:16 And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usfrom the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb

Luke 23:27-30 A great number of people followed Him, including women who kept mourning and wailing for Him. But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time
‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’c


3.) In revelation, Babylon is charged with the blood of the servants of God. When Babylon is judged, the marriage of the lamb and his bride is ready. This fits perfectly with Christ charging 1st century Jerusalem with all the righteous blood shed. And what happens after God sends his armies to destroy them? the marriage feast is ready.

Revelation 19:2, 7 For His judgments are true and just. He has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality. He has avenged the blood of His servants that was poured out by her hand.” Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready

Matthew 23:35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Matthew 22:7-9 The king was enraged, and he sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the crossroads and invite to the banquet as many as you can find.’

Thus the evidence is pretty clear that the judgment of Babylon in Isaiah has immediate near context with the literal judgment of the earthly kingdom of Babylon, but also a far context in the judgment of spiritual Babylon, which was 1st century Jerusalem charged with all the righteous blood shed and not recognizing the time of God's visitation.


 
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claninja

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It is heresy to believe there is no physical resurrection of the body (the 2nd resurrection) and no physical return of Christ (the 2nd coming).

What Christian theological belief does not believe in a physical resurrection of the body and the physical return of Christ?
 
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DavidPT

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I definitely agree there is a near/far context, as there is with most OT scripture. Isaiah 13 being about God's judgment on Babylon, which foreshadowed another future judgment, just as, for example, Moses lifted up a snake to heal the people, which foreshadowed Christ being lifted up.


However, I would disagree that it can't be applied to 66-70ad.


1.) Christ is quoting from Isaiah in regards to the tribulation of the olivet discourse, which many Amils agree, took place in 66-70ad. Jesus quotes from Isaiah as being "immediately" after the tribulation of Jerusalem. This is in agreement with the 6th seal of revelation

Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The rising sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Revelation 6:12-13 And when I saw the Lamb open the sixth seal, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black like sackcloth of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs dropping from a tree shaken by a great wind

You are clearly correct to connect those passages like that, so I agree with you on that. What you are not correct about is that any of those passages in the NT you submitted are meaning what took place in 66-70 AD. In Matthew 24:29 when do you think the tribulation of those days are meaning? If you perhaps think it's meaning what took place in 66-70 AD, you then can't claim Isaiah 13:10, even though it is meaning what you have in red letters in Matthew 24:29, that this is meaning what took place in 66-70 AD.

Clearly Matthew 24:29 makes it as clear as day, what you have in red letters in Matthew 24:29 is meaning immediately after the trib of those days, and not during the trib of those days instead, which means the same has to be true of Isaiah 13:10. During the trib of those days and after the trib of those days is a contradiction if both are supposed to be referring to the same time period.

Even though I disagree that the trib of those days are meaning what took place in 66-70 AD, let's assume it is meaning that. That would mean we need to understand all of the following like such.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after what took place in 66-70 AD shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Not only does that place Isaiah 13:10 after what took place in 66-70 AD, it also places the coming in verse 30 after what took place in 66-70 AD, therefore making it illogical to apply the coming in verse 30 to that of what took place in 66-70 AD instead of after 66-70 AD like the text plainly tells us.
 
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Andrewn

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claninja

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Both Amils and Premils of the historical and the dispensational varieties believe they're are caught up to Paradise after physical death.

Premils of the SDA and JW varieties believe in soul sleep.

From my understanding on the Amillennial position on life after death, Christians go to heaven upon physical death to be with the Lord.

Paradise = Heaven, as confirmed by Paul

2 corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise. The things he heard were too sacred for words, things that man is not permitted to tell.
 
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solid_core

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Full preterism believes that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment.
Full preterism believes that resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming happened in the first century. Its not equal with just destruction of Jerusalem, the destruction of Jerusalem was just one of many main events ending the old age.
 
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claninja

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You are clearly correct to connect those passages like that, so I agree with you on that.

It's always good to find common ground :)

What you are not correct about is that any of those passages in the NT you submitted are meaning what took place in 66-70 AD.

Then please address all 4 points as to why I am wrong:

1.) Jesus didn't charge 1st century Jerusalem with all the righteous blood shed in Matthew 22:35-36, which is also what Babylon the great was charged with in revelation 18:24?

2.) Jesus didn't say that the marriage feast was ready after the destruction of the original invited wedding guests in Matthew 22:7-8, which is just coincidentally similar to the destruction of Babylon the great followed by the marriage of lamb in revelation 18-19?

3.) Jesus didn't quote hosea 10:8 as being fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem in Luke 23:28-30, which is just coincidentally similar to that of hosea 10:8 being fulfilled at the 6th seal in revelation 6?

4.) Jesus didn't quote Isaiah 13:10, which was about the fall of Babylon, in regards to the events immediately after the destruction of Jerusalem?


In Matthew 24:29 when do you think the tribulation of those days are meaning?

1st century

If you perhaps think it's meaning what took place in 66-70 AD, you then can't claim Isaiah 13:10, even though it is meaning what you have in red letters in Matthew 24:29, that this is meaning what took place in 66-70 AD.

Correct, I believe the tribulation of Jerusalem took place from 66-70ad, as clearly attested by Christ.

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened.

Luke 19:33-34 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”

Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ 30At that time

‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”

and to the hills, “Cover us!”’


Matthew 23:35-36 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

I don't believe Isaiah 13:10 finds its fulfillment during the tribulation, but immediately after as stated by scripture.



Clearly Matthew 24:29 makes it as clear as day, what you have in red letters in Matthew 24:29 is meaning immediately after the trib of those days, and not during the trib of those days instead, which means the same has to be true of Isaiah 13:10. During the trib of those days and after the trib of those days is a contradiction if both are supposed to be referring to the same time period.


I'm not really sure why you are making this argument. I believe Isaiah 13:10 finds its fulfillment immediately after the tribulation of Jerusalem.
 
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Andrewn

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From my understanding on the Amillennial position on life after death, Christians go to heaven upon physical death to be with the Lord.

Paradise = Heaven, as confirmed by Paul

2 corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to Paradise. The things he heard were too sacred for words, things that man is not permitted to tell.
My understanding is indeed that Paradise is in the 3rd (out of 7 heavens). This is not a point I would fight for. I may very well be wrong.
 
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DavidPT

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From my understanding on the Amillennial position on life after death, Christians go to heaven upon physical death to be with the Lord.



Even many Premils believe that as well, except Premils don't equate that as reigning with Christ a thousand years in heaven as do Amils. For one, Revelation 20:6 indicates, in regards to those that reign with Christ a thousand years---these shall be priests to God and Christ. In what way does it make sense for disembodied souls to be priests of God and Christ while in heaven awaiting their eternal bodies via the resurrection of the dead? Where is a 2nd witness to this alleged fact in the Bible, where anyone while in heaven awaiting their eternal bodies, are performing priestly duties at the time?

One can't cherry pick in Revelation 20:6 and claim only some of those who reign with Christ a thousand years, are priests to God and Christ, and that some aren't. And Amils wonder why some of us can't get onboard with Amil. To do so one would have to accept, as bizzare as what I submitted above already is, as normal and as fact, though Amils can't remotely prove this via other Scriptures, where anyone while in heaven awaiting their eternal bodies, are performing priestly duties at the time, in heaven.
 
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DavidPT

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I'm not really sure why you are making this argument. I believe Isaiah 13:10 finds its fulfillment immediately after the tribulation of Jerusalem.


Apparently I misunderstood something in the post of yours I was replying to at the time. After lunch I may look at that post again and try and determine where I misunderstood you. That aside for now, what about my point in regards to the coming in Matthew 24:30? Don't Preterists apply that to what took place in 66-70 AD?

After lunch I will do my best to try and address those 4 points you brought up. Don't have time atm.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Full preterism believes that resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming happened in the first century. Its not equal with just destruction of Jerusalem, the destruction of Jerusalem was just one of many main events ending the old age.

If you are talking about the old covenant, it finished when Jesus said "it is finished," that saw the immediate ripping of the curtain in two in the temple, rendering the old covenant obsolete.

If you are talking about the term “this age,” that comes to an end at the climatic coming of Jesus Christ. The biblical dynamic between “this age” and “the age to come” is repeatedly shown to be that between time and eternity, corruption and incorruption, this current heavens and earth and the new heavens and new earth.
 
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solid_core

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If you are talking about the old covenant, it finished when Jesus said "it is finished," that saw the immediate ripping of the curtain in two in the temple, rendering the old covenant obsolete.

If you are talking about the term “this age,” that comes to an end at the climatic coming of Jesus Christ. The biblical dynamic between “this age” and “the age to come” is repeatedly shown to be that between time and eternity, corruption and incorruption, this current heavens and earth and the new heavens and new earth.
I mean old earth and heaven, old laws, Jewish era... all this I mean by "the old age".
 
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sovereigngrace

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I mean old earth and heaven, old laws, Jewish era... all this I mean by "the old age".

Scripture does not use terms like a "Jewish era" or "the old age." It rather talk about "the old testament." That ended at the cross, with the introduction of the new testament/covenant.

The old corrupt old earth and heaven will be removed when Jesus comes and introduces the new heavens and new earth.
 
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solid_core

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Scripture does not use terms like a "Jewish era" or "the old age." It rather talk about "the old testament." That ended at the cross, with the introduction of the new testament/covenant.
We do not have to use the same terms as long as we agree about the meaning.
 
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sovereigngrace

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We do not have to use the same terms as long as we agree about the meaning.

I believe it is wiser to use biblical terms. Especially when it comes to theology. Man-made theology tends to build its beliefs around man-made terms.

Also, the old corrupt old earth and heaven will be removed when Jesus comes and introduces the new heavens and new earth.
 
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solid_core

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I believe it is wiser to use biblical terms. Especially when it comes to theology. Man-made theology tends to build its beliefs around man-made terms.

Also, the old corrupt old earth and heaven will be removed when Jesus comes and introduces the new heavens and new earth.
I think Jesus has already come and the old earth and heavens passed away. And we live in a new age.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I think Jesus has already come and the old earth and heavens passed away. And we live in a new age.

Really? You must be living on a different earth to me. The world we live in today is definitely not the new heavens and new earth of Scripture. If we were living in “the age to come” then, on the authority of God’s Word, there would be no more death, marrying, crying, pain, sorrow, a curse, or evil. Yet the opposite is the truth!

· Death is rampant today.
· Decay is everywhere.
· Marriage can be found throughout the earth in our day.
· Crying continues in “this age.”
· Pain is prevalent.
· Sorrow abounds.
· The evidence of the curse is staring us in the face all around us.
· We still live in an “evil age.”

This proves that we are still in “this age” and have yet to arrive at the perfection and glory of “the age to come” and “the new heavens and new earth.”
 
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solid_core

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Really? You must be living on a different earth to me. The world we live in today is definitely not the new heavens and new earth of Scripture. If we were living in “the age to come” then, on the authority of God’s Word, there would be no more death, marrying, crying, pain, sorrow, a curse, or evil. Yet the opposite is the truth!

· Death is rampant today.
· Decay is everywhere.
· Marriage can be found throughout the earth in our day.
· Crying continues in “this age.”
· Pain is prevalent.
· Sorrow abounds.
· The evidence of the curse is staring us in the face all around us.
· We still live in an “evil age.”

This proves that we are still in “this age” and have yet to arrive at the perfection and glory of “the age to come” and “the new heavens and new earth.”

You must use spiritual eyes, not the physical eyeballs.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I think Jesus has already come and the old earth and heavens passed away. And we live in a new age.

So, you do not believe in a literal physical visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ?
 
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parousia70

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If you are talking about the old covenant, it finished when Jesus said "it is finished," that saw the immediate ripping of the curtain in two in the temple, rendering the old covenant obsolete.

Yet according to the writer of Hebrews , while it was indeed obsolete, it was still extant, and had yet to disappear decades AFTER the cross:

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
 
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