Anti-universalism hostility

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Mark Quayle

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HTasiana said, "Universalism is not taught by any of the original apostolic Churches. It is not a teaching of Christianity."

[/QUOTE]
Now is that a little bit knee-jerkish?

St Gregory of Nyssa, for example, a church father and saint in both Eastern and Western traditions, was an ardent universalist.

Who is St Gregory? He is not my church father, and no more a saint than anyone else God calls the elect.

Perhaps Tasiana should have said, "...teaching of the Bible" instead of "...teaching of Christianity, so you could deal with her real point. The Bible is pretty clear that not everybody will avoid eternal condemnation. The OP's idea, or David Hart's, that our reason to object is 'For me to win, someone has to lose', sounds to me like he's crying, "you aren't being nice" when people disagree with him. (After all, if he can relegate my objections to mere emotion, I can do the same to his.)

The Bible teaches that the elect are of themselves no better than anyone else. (In fact, in places it almost sounds like the opposite is true, such as, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.") The fact some escape the result of their sin is mere mercy of God, who laid the debt on his Son in their place.

His justice is precise and thorough. It does not ignore sin.
 
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Gregorikos

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Dear Gregorikos: All four hells have a final resting place in the Lake of all lakes, the Lake of Theos radiating with theion & theioo.

Our God prevails over all death, all despair, all hells: ALL

And if I was in Gehenna when it was picked up and thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where then would I be?
 
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Euodius

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Now is that a little bit knee-jerkish?

St Gregory of Nyssa, for example, a church father and saint in both Eastern and Western traditions, was an ardent universalist.

And he was the student of Origen, honored for his defense of the trinity, not for his universalism (which can only be implied from his writings and not absolutely.) That he corrected much of his teacher's teachings is commendable, but many Saints are wrong about certain issues - that's why Augustine had to write Retractions. They are not infallible, thus they must be taken as a whole, to learn the mind of the fathers.

Lifting up a singular saint is always cultish.
 
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FineLinen

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And if I was in Gehenna when it was picked up and thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where then would I be?

Dear Gregorikos: Whatever hell you are in will be consumated in the Lake of Theos.

Do you know what the koine is for sulphur?

Theion

Do you know in Whom theion is rooted?

Theos.

Our God is consuming fire where each of us fallen wrecks must dwell.
 
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Euodius

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Doesn't DBH also think that the God of the Old Testament is actually just a Canaanite storm deity? His Marcionism goes hand in hand with his universalism.

Just the same as Dr. Joseph Farrell, he is inventing a new religion to avoid theodicy in the naivety of evil. Farrell may now claim the Great Pyramid is actually a planet destroying weapon, but his theories aren't any more outlandish than DBH.
 
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Der Alte

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And if I was in Gehenna when it was picked up and thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where then would I be?
If Gehenna means the grave, that is a bunch of empty holes which cannot be thrown anywhere. If Gehenna means the place of punishment then it can be thrown. But death is also thrown into lake of fire at the same time. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be thrown anywhere.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops with literal and figurative at the same time .

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
I call them the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the lake of fire and their power to kill ended.
 
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Gregorikos

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Dear Gregorikos: Whatever hell you are in will be consumated in the Lake of Theos.

...where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:48 (RSV)

Do you know what the koine is for sulphur?

Theion

Do you know in Whom theion is rooted?

Theos.

Our God is consuming fire where each of us fallen wrecks must dwell.

And that's not a good thing. That quote is from Hebrews 12:27. It is in the midst of a warning about rejecting God in Hebrews 12:12-29 .

And it's in reference Deuteronomy 4:24 and Deuteronomy 9:3.

By all means, believe what you want. But I'm not following you at all.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Dear Daniel: There is no such animal as "simple" in our Father's Barnyard.

This is the deal: every last human being ultimately bows the knee in worship & confesses in union with the Name of all names. "You are Lord."

And lest you think this is forced subjection, please note that wee word IN/EN. This worship is in union with His glorious Name, not perfunctory genuflections!

But there is more > > >

Every knee, every mouth, in EVERY dimension of the heavens, earth & underworld.

When it comes to the article of justification, I beg to differ. That every knee shall bow does not imply that all will be saved, but rather that everyone will recognise that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. Even the demons believe — and shudder!

1. Only God is good and the source of all that is good. His nature, design and Word are good.

2. When we rebel against and reject God, His nature, design and Word, as we all continuously do, we reject and rebel against what is good. Consequently, we're evil. When we sin against God, we're in effect crowning ourselves our own "lords". This is a terrible evil, far greater than what we can comprehend and worthy of a most severe punishment. The fact that we are unable to grasp how evil sin is, is a testament to how evil we are - for evil seems good, and good seems evil to us. If we ever think of God as too harsh or unfair in His judgment, it's most definitely a sure sign of our own evil.

3. It is in line with God's good and righteous nature to punish all evil. If God didn't punish evil, He wouldn't be good and righteous. God promises in His Word to punish all evil, and His Word is true.

4. Damnation is an eternal separation from God - separation from that which is good - which is why it's immeasurably severe and painful. Scriptures illustrate this as everlasting shame and torment of body and soul; a second death, gnashing of teeth, lake of fire etc

So rather than twisting God's Word as Unitarians do when teaching that man is too good to be eternally damned, and Universalists do when maintaining that God is too good to damn man eternally, or as the Atheists do when insisting there is no hell, instead understand:

(A) How severe sin is that it merits such a severe consequence.

(B) How great a suffering Christ endured, who took upon himself the sin of the whole world, receiving the full wrath of God not only for one person but for all, throughout all times and places. For our sake, God made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

(C) How mighty Christ is, who endured God's full wrath, and how merciful He is, who bought us with His own blood. Because of the person and works of Christ, we are declared righteous in God's sight.

This is what makes the cross - the Gospel - so great because it testifies to God's righteous judgment of sin, His mercy and lovingkindness for giving us Christ, His only Son, the burden of epic proportions that Christ had to bear, and the incomprehensible glory and might of Christ to overcome death, sin and hell.

Point is, if we have a low view of God's Law, we'll have a low view of sin. If we have a low view of sin, we'll have a low view of the Gospel, and from this comes universalistic ideas and all kinds of heresy. This is why it's so important to understand God's Law and Gospel in their full sense.
 
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Mark Quayle

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In this short video, David Bentley Hart suggests that the emotionally-driven objection of many Christians to universal salvation/ restorationism is motivated by a childish view that 'For me to win, someone has to lose'. This is a sin that we all suffer from time to time. But is God's grace not higher than that?

It may be that the vehemence with which the heresy of universalism is dealt with is sometimes over-the-top. I have seen the same opposition to Calvinism. But it is based on the denial that Calvinism appears to pose to them concerning precious truth --though they are wrong about it-- they think it denies Scripture. I think Universalism denies the horror of sin, the depth of sin, and the justice of God, not to mention takes man to be capable of sounding the depths of the love of God. To pretend that man's concept of God's love is a valid ideology from which to interpret all of scripture is what it seems to me to be doing.

Instead, we should realize that God does not do love --he is love. As one of the reformers has said, God does not love because it is a good thing to love; instead, love is what it is because God is love.
 
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GaveMeJoy

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Now is that a little bit knee-jerkish?

St Gregory of Nyssa, for example, a church father and saint in both Eastern and Western traditions, was an ardent universalist.
Unfortunately, if that person believed in universalism when they died, that person is now in hell. Also, anyone who is swayed to believe in universalism based on that video or any post in this thread and dies in it will also go to hell. The stakes are SO high :(

Jesus said I am the Way,
The truth, and the life, and no man comes to the father but by me.

I fear for the souls of any human being who thinks the road to heaven is broad. This type of teaching inoculates people from the true gospel of Jesus Christ crucified and risen because the unregenerate have been assured they are heaven bound when they are still dead in sin. It’s really sad, prosperity gospel too, so very many people being robbed of their souls by liars and charlatans, yet i believe God is sovereign and good in all of it
 
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FineLinen

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When it comes to the article of justification, I beg to differ. That every knee shall bow does not imply that all will be saved, but rather that everyone will recognise that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. Even the demons believe — and shudder!

Dear Daniel: Justification by faith in the Lord is a wonderful fact. Being IN/EN Him by that confession is as well. I assume you have had this glorious experience in both aspects, if so you will be on your way to grasping the scope of what is transpiring in Phil. 2. You will note that wee word "IN", not "at" the Name, in the Name of all names.

The confession is one of worship, not constraint, worship IN/EN His Holy Name! It is not by perfunctory genuflections.

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven.

This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.


Under the earth (καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.

Overview - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension IN worship of the Saviour of all
 
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FineLinen

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Rev. 5:13

Every created thing (παν κτισμα — pān ktisma).

Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from κτιζω — ktizō for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in Revelation 5:3, with on the sea επι της ταλασσης — epi tēs thalassēs added). No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (κτισις — ktisis) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.

Saying (λεγοντας — legontas). Masculine (construction according to sense, personifying the created things) if genuine, though some MSS. have λεγοντα — legonta (grammatical gender agreeing with παντα — panta) present active participle of λεγω — legō to say.


And to the Lamb (και τωι αρνιωι — kai tōi arniōi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Revelation 4:11 and the addition of το κρατος — to kratos (active power) in place of ισχυς — ischus (reserve of strength) in Revelation 5:12.
 
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FineLinen

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100 Reasons God will save all mankind.

Thomas Whittemore: 100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind | Mercy Upon All

The Message Bible (online version)

Read the The Message Bible Free Online

2edf657ffc2c2dd7a875e97d65c084b2d805f70c.jpeg
 
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martymonster

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It's a fallacious argument. My objection to universalism is that it is not a teaching of Christianity.

You're certainly right about that. Thankfully though, it's certainly the teaching of Christ.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Dear Daniel: Justification by faith in the Lord is a wonderful fact. Being IN/EN Him by that confession is as well. I assume you have had this glorious experience in both aspects, if so you will be on your way to grasping the scope of what is transpiring in Phil. 2. You will note that wee word "IN", not "at" the Name, in the Name of all names.

The confession is one of worship, not constraint, worship IN/EN His Holy Name! It is not by perfunctory genuflections.

"That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven.

This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.


Under the earth (καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.

Overview - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension IN worship of the Saviour of all

Well, no, that doesn't hold up. For sound exegesis, we should bear in mind two key things: (1) We must always read the text in its immediate context first, and then in its broader context second. (2) Unclear passages should always be subject to clear passages.

So, to put this into practice, all of Philippians has to do with the hope we share in Christ; that is, God's grace in the person and works of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if someone were to reject Jesus, they reject God's grace. Nowhere in Philippians, or any Biblical text, does it say that whoever rejects, disbelieve and hate God will yet live in Christ. No, it's written that those who do not believe are condemned. There is no salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ. That every knee should bow before Christ is to the glory of God and the joy of the believers, but to the shame of the unbelievers.

Let me ask you two questions:

1. Bearing in mind explicit texts such as 2 Peter 2, do you believe that the angels who sinned will be restored along with all sinners? Peter very clearly writes that they are condemned.

2. If someone dies in disbelief and contempt for God, at what point is the person converted? Scriptures nowhere say, indicate or alludes to conversion after death. Even people who believe in Purgatory reject this notion, for they hold that Purgatory is a gradual justification and sanctification of the believer, not the unbeliever.

If it isn't already clear, here's the problem: Although Scriptures nowhere teaches this but rather the opposite, suppose an unbeliever had the opportunity to believe in the next life. That would imply that the unbeliever is still in a state of sin in the new creation, which Scriptures absolutely speaks against, for there is no sin in the new creation, and there cannot be unbelief without sin. Secondly, again, Scriptures nowhere teaches this but instead the opposite, suppose a man dies in disbelief and hatred for God. Suppose he suffers some kind of punishment that pays for his own sins. This idea goes hard against the Gospel, which teaches us that Christ paid for our sins. If someone could suffer for their own sins they would merit salvation by their own works and apart from faith in Christ, but this is the polar opposite of what the Word of God says.

So, unless you can demonstrate any passage in Scriptures that say something to the effect that whoever rejects Christ will live, and that they may be converted in the next life, you won't have much to go on, and you'd have to ignore most of the Scriptures.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Charlie, just the man DBH was thinking of! Welcome in my man. But what if restricting the mercy and grace of God to anything less than the perfect and absolute is a sin, Charlie?

The gospel of good news for all doesn't suddenly turn into terrible news for many. Jesus didn't die in vain.
Just got here.

But then what would be the reason for writing the gospels and the entire N.T.?
I understand that Jesus would still have had to die for the whole world...
but beyond that...why missionaries...why did Paul and Peter travel the known world with the gospel ??
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Where did Christ state this?
The false gospel is full of statements confirming universalism as if it were Yahweh's Plan -
but since it is false in its entirety, origination, and propagation,
those who succumb to it are or may be lost, for now.
 
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In this short video, David Bentley Hart suggests that the emotionally-driven objection of many Christians to universal salvation/ restorationism is motivated by a childish view that 'For me to win, someone has to lose'. This is a sin that we all suffer from time to time. But is God's grace not higher than that?

The foundation of this argument is founded on the presumption that sin is not really a problem.
Fundamentally there is a failure to understand what people actually are.

We are a series of social reactions to situations we find ourselves in. We build up reactions to these situations that give us security in how to respond automatically without any extra work required. What happens when storms and troubles come, and these responses no longer work. The buildings start to collapse and we are left as a rubble on the floor.

Jesus brings us in the word, His gospel, His tying of our behaviour to true relationship and righteousness.
It brings consistency between all our reactions and behaviour setting, putting everything into its right place. When God appears, and is the light that reveals what we truly are, will demonstrate either we are solid and functional or just a series of interactions, but which when put together collapse into nothing.

Now universalism simply does not exist. Either people are integrated into Jesus through the Holy Spirit or they are lost. When the veil is lifted there is nothing left to be said, because in the blaze of this light things can only be resolved.

Lostness is the state of nothing being tied together, that the whole is a whole of functions given a context, but change the context, and it no longer functions. Jesus came with a simple warning. The Kingdom of God is near, sort yourselves out, get ready, cleanse yourselves, repent, walk the straight path and know He will being eternal life, restitution to your souls. God bless
 
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