LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

dzheremi · Jan 25, 2020

Okay then.

That certainly does apply to the Mormon religion.

mmksparbud · Jan 25, 2020

He is the way said:
Dead bodies are not baptized, living people are baptized for those who did not receive that ordinance while they were alive on the earth. The proper way to ne baptized is mentioned in the Bible:

(New Testament | Romans 6:3 - 6)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

(New Testament | Mark 1:7 - 10)

7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Yes, I meant you do it by proxy by having an LDS member be baptized in place of the dead body---but can't seem to grasp that a live body already did it for those who couldn't be bapotize4d---Jesus is their proxy--not an LDS member.

dzheremi · Jan 25, 2020

If we are going to venture into how else baptism can occur for people who could not undergo it personally, then there are many typological baptisms in the Bible -- the floo (the 'baptism' of the world), Pentecost (the 'baptism' of the Church), martyrdoms (the 'baptism' into Christ's death and resurrection to eternal life by their own shedding of blood), etc. Any of one of these could be pointed to as fulfilling in some way the command that man be baptized, and all happened without baptizing a single dead person, because that has never been a practice in any group other than the gnostics who were openly mocked by the early Church for having this practice, as I've already presented in several other threads from the writings of St. John Chrysostom (who is no theological lightweight).

mmksparbud · Jan 25, 2020

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co_10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

He is the way · Jan 25, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
So then---the proxy baptism is effectively a joke?
You agreed with what is done in the body---even quoted the very same verse back to me.

Baptism for the dead is no joke. Paul used baptism for the dead as evidence for the resurrection.

He is the way · Jan 25, 2020

dzheremi said:
With regard to authority supposedly given to Joseph Smith by St. John the Baptist: what makes Mormons think that authority possessed by any individual is theirs to be given to anyone as though they personally possess it of themselves in the first place? Authority is vested in the Church itself (e.g., Matthew 18:15-17), exercised by the power of God, and those who try to 'transfer' it out of that context have been condemned for as far back as anyone can trace conflicts within the Church, as when St. Paul withstood St. Peter to his face over the latter's acceptance of Judaizing heresy (they were both called of God, but St. Peter even personally knew Christ before His death, resurrection, and ascension, so if anyone was going to 'pull rank', so to speak, then that confrontation should've gone the other way, yet it didn't; hmm...), or a little while later (c. 140s), when Marcion of Sinope started preaching against the God of the OT, and even went so far as to create his own Biblical canon to support his weird ideas, and the Church -- rather than treating it as a matter of a baptized, believing member (which he had been before he went off the rails) taking the legitimacy that supposedly conferred upon him and doing his own thing -- took up a collection to give him back all the money he had given to the Church up to that point (he was a very rich ship builder and had greatly supported the Church financially), gave him his money, and told him to get out and not come back.

You don't get to start a new religion or a 'restored' religion on the grounds that you are personally imbued with authority from someone else who got it in a different set of circumstances, and Christian saints (which is what St. John the Baptist is; he's a Christian saint) don't bless the starting of parasitical assemblies by giving the founders of said assemblies the power to do anything. This is all a gigantic sham.

Matthew 18:15-17 is not about priesthood authority. Priesthood authority is confered by someone who has been given that authority:

(Old Testament | Exodus 28:41)

41 And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 34:9)

9 ¶ And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

(New Testament | Matthew 16:19)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

(New Testament | Mark 3:14)

14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

(New Testament | 1 Timothy 4:14)

14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

(New Testament | Titus 1:5)

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

And then there is this:

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:1 - 5)

1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

truefiction1 · Jan 25, 2020

He is the way said:
This earth, where Jesus Christ lived, is not the kingdom of God:

(New Testament | John 18:36)

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Neither is the spirit world the kingdom of God.

The earth where Jesus Lived, is the Kingdom of God, even though Jesus Christ's Kingdom is not of "this world". What Christ meant by "this world" and Earth are two separate things. He meant the world of the passions, where evil reigns because the prince of this world is the devil. But the Earth is "good" (see the creation account in Genesis). When Jesus Christ is in your midst on Earth, the Kingdom of Heaven is "in your midst", or "within you", according to some Bible translations:

When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Luke 17:20-21)

Do you see how you are not understanding? You think that the Kingdom of Heaven is "somewhere else". You are joining the company of those who say "Look, here it is," or "There it is."

But it is not where you say it is. It is, as Christ said, in our very midst. It is within us, because God is within us. Yes, right here where we are.

Orthodox Christians enter through the narrow gate, and this is the beginning of our journey into God's Kingdom. This journey begins in the present, hear on Earth, by the grace communicated to us by the Holy Spirit.

But what would you know about any of that? Your imaginary god is not omnipresent like the God of the Bible; the God of Orthodox Christians, whose God is always with them because He is "everywhere present and fills all things": (Psalms 139:7-12) (Jeremiah 23:23-24).

Jamesone5 · Jan 25, 2020

He is the way said:
Baptism for the dead is no joke. Paul used baptism for the dead as evidence for the resurrection.

You seem to make it a joke when you say this:
John the baptist had the authority to baptize. He gave that authority to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. That authority has been passed down by those in authority to do so. We all have free will but there are consequences to the choices we make----He is the way

How about the dead people and the choices THEY MADE, to Not get baptized in your Church--- while they lived?

He is the way · Jan 25, 2020

truefiction1 said:
The earth where Jesus Lived, is the Kingdom of God, even though Jesus Christ's Kingdom is not of "this world". What Christ meant by "this world" and Earth are two separate things. He meant the world of the passions, where evil reigns because the prince of this world is the devil. But the Earth is "good" (see the creation account in Genesis). When Jesus Christ is in your midst on Earth, the Kingdom of Heaven is "in your midst", or "within you", according to some Bible translations:

When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Luke 17:20-21)

Do you see how you are not understanding? You think that the Kingdom of Heaven is "somewhere else". You are joining the company of those who say "Look, here it is," or "There it is."

But it is not where you say it is. It is, as Christ said, in our very midst. It is within us, because God is within us. Yes, right here where we are.

Orthodox Christians enter through the narrow gate, and this is the beginning of our journey into God's Kingdom. This journey begins in the present, hear on Earth, by the grace communicated to us by the Holy Spirit.

But what would you know about any of that? Your imaginary god is not omnipresent like the God of the Bible; the God of Orthodox Christians, whose God is always with them because He is "everywhere present and fills all things": (Psalms 139:7-12) (Jeremiah 23:23-24).

So basically you are saying that we are now living in the kingdom of God because God is everywhere therefore everywhere is the Kingdom of God. However I don't see Sheol as being the kingdom of God. These are good scriptures, but do we really understand them. They may be beyond our grasp at the present time. Anyway somehow God can prevent us from seeing the kingdom of God or He would not have said:

(New Testament | John 3:3)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

He is the way · Jan 25, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
You seem to make it a joke when you say this:
John the baptist had the authority to baptize. He gave that authority to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. That authority has been passed down by those in authority to do so. We all have free will but there are consequences to the choices we make----He is the way

How about the dead people and the choices THEY MADE, to Not get baptized in your Church--- while they lived?

Many people did not have the opportunity to be baptized. Are there any members of the church you belong to in North Korea? Do you actually believe that everyone living on the earth or that have ever lived on the earth had the opportunity to be baptized while they were alive?

Jamesone5 · Jan 25, 2020

He is the way said:
Many people did not have the opportunity to be baptized. Are there any members of the church you belong to in North Korea? Do you actually believe that everyone living on the earth or that have ever lived on the earth had the opportunity to be baptized while they were alive?

It is all about the non-Biblical "second chances" that only your Church want to give. You are not God who can pass Judgements whether this person or that person should have a "second chance" to make it into to heaven by this proxy baptism that you insist upon.

He is the way · Jan 25, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
It is all about the non-Biblical "second chances" that only your Church want to give. You are not God who can pass Judgements whether this person or that person should have a "second chance" to make it into to heaven by this proxy baptism that you insist upon.

Whether the proxy baptism will be accepted or not is not up to the one doing the ordinance. However the gospel is taught to the dead:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

dzheremi · Jan 26, 2020

He is the way said:
Matthew 18:15-17 is not about priesthood authority.

Of course it isn't about "priesthood authority" because that's something that Joseph Smith made up in an attempt to bolster his non-existent authority.

Jamesone5 · Jan 26, 2020

He is the way said:
Whether the proxy baptism will be accepted or not is not up to the one doing the ordinance. However the gospel is taught to the dead:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Where does it say the must be baptized again? You are imagining things if you see baptized anywhere in the whole of that passage.

And was preached to those who are dead, Not will be preached at some future time when they supposedly get a second chance.

Goes for you Mormons who already had the true Gospel preached to you but yet did not listen.

He is the way · Jan 26, 2020

dzheremi said:
Of course it isn't about "priesthood authority" because that's something that Joseph Smith made up in an attempt to bolster his non-existent authority.

Joseph Smith did not make it up. There are plenty witnesses to the golden plates.

He is the way · Jan 26, 2020

Jamesone5 said:
(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Where does it say the must be baptized again? You are imagining things if you see baptized anywhere in the whole of that passage.

And was preached to those who are dead, Not will be preached at some future time when they supposedly get a second chance.

Goes for you Mormons who already had the true Gospel preached to you but yet did not listen.

You know fine well that baptism for the dead is taught by Paul and is mentioned as a defense for the resurrection. Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints are taught correct principles.

dzheremi · Jan 26, 2020

He Is The Way, may I suggest to you that we know what you believe to be true (e.g., that "priesthood authority" is a real thing, that JS finding the plates and all that other stuff actually did happen, that baptism for the dead is taught in the Bible, etc.), but that it is a really big leap from that -- and quite wrong and baseless -- for you to suggest that other people who are not Mormons know these things to be true.

We didn't all just happen to get lost one morning on our way to the local Mormon stake and somehow randomly end up in Christian churches. People here who are rejecting the things that you are posting are doing so because they're false, not because we know them to be true but are not willing to admit it or something.

It's one thing to believe that you are right, or to argue for it (which you never really do in the first place; just look at your last reply to me: "Nuh uh, it is so!", basically), and another thing to assume that others who have posted in disagreement actually agree with you or would agree if they weren't so in denial or whatever is behind things like your reply to Jamesone5. And whatever it is, it reads like incredible arrogance on your part.

He is the way · Jan 26, 2020

dzheremi said:
He Is The Way, may I suggest to you that we know what you believe to be true (e.g., that "priesthood authority" is a real thing, that JS finding the plates and all that other stuff actually did happen, that baptism for the dead is taught in the Bible, etc.), but that it is a really big leap from that -- and quite wrong and baseless -- for you to suggest that other people who are not Mormons know these things to be true.

We didn't all just happen to get lost one morning on our way to the local Mormon stake and somehow randomly end up in Christian churches. People here who are rejecting the things that you are posting are doing so because they're false, not because we know them to be true but are not willing to admit it or something.

It's one thing to believe that you are right, or to argue for it (which you never really do in the first place; just look at your last reply to me: "Nuh uh, it is so!", basically), and another thing to assume that others who have posted in disagreement actually agree with you or would agree if they weren't so in denial or whatever is behind things like your reply to Jamesone5. And whatever it is, it reads like incredible arrogance on your part.

I don't mean to come away as sounding arrogant. When people make unsubstantiated claims it does rattle me a bit. It makes me wonder about the objectives they are pursuing. I realize that this is a debate forum and I believe that I conduct myself in a proper manner. Pointing out Biblical scriptures that others may not have considered is one of the points I like to make. I do realize that people have been taught differently and want to stand up for their beliefs as do I want to stand up for my beliefs. Some people say that we see things through the filters that we were taught to use. Having been a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints for most of my life and having diligently sought God through supplication, I have experienced increased knowledge from many resources. I am not saying that that makes me better than anyone else. On the contrary I know that I have a long way to go and I am slowly working towards that goal. I have shown over and over that Paul used baptism for the dead as a resource for teaching about the resurrection. Both the resurrection and baptism for the dead are taught by Paul.:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:27 - 29)

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2020

He is the way said:
So basically you are saying that we are now living in the kingdom of God because God is everywhere therefore everywhere is the Kingdom of God. However I don't see Sheol as being the kingdom of God. These are good scriptures, but do we really understand them. They may be beyond our grasp at the present time. Anyway somehow God can prevent us from seeing the kingdom of God or He would not have said:

(New Testament | John 3:3)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The Holy Prophet King David said that if he were to go down to Sheol, God would be there. You should have read his Psalm verse that I included with my last post, then you would also know, as God's true prophet, King David knows, that God is indeed everywhere present, and fills all things. Here are the Scriptures again: (Psalms 139:7-12) (Jeremiah 23:23-24)

Try to imagine this: spiritual states of being are referred to in the form of physical "places", but these are only metaphors that point to the nature of the spiritual states. They are not literal places. God does not dwell on a planet somewhere in outer space. God dwells everywhere, and is in all places at all times, filling all things with Himself.

The only thing standing in the way of journeying into the Kingdom of Heaven, by way of the narrow way, is sin. Sin prevents Communion with God, because it is a freewill choice to turn aside from the narrow way in order to commune with sin instead of Communing with God. That is why Christ taught us not to look for the Kingdom of heaven anywhere other than within our own hearts, because within our own hearts is where the Kingdom of Heaven dwells, because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit come to make their home in our hearts when we "abide in Him", by turning away from sin and drawing near to God in repentance.

But what would you know about any of that? Your God resides not in your heart, but far away on some distant world, somewhere in this universe he created because gods like him grow to have the power to create universes and the like. This is a completely different sort of god than the God of Orthodox Christians, Who is the God of the Bible.

truefiction1 · Jan 26, 2020

He is the way said:
Baptism for the dead is no joke. Paul used baptism for the dead as evidence for the resurrection.

Paul used the memorial shrine to the pagan "Unknown god" to talk to pagans about Jesus Christ's Gospel to convince them to believe in Christ. Paul did not, however, say that they ought to worship the pagan unknown God. Talking about something and doing it are two different things.

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