Which of the following people are saved?

A_Thinker said:

So ... given that you began the christian walk in the spirit, ... and you going to keep it in the flesh (i.e. by works of responsibility) ?

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See my recent post #118, and post #119.

You said:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that brings life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

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This was said to those who did not even believe in Jesus and His grace to begin with.


I believe we must first be saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I also believe we are ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and by His mercy. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). Good works cannot erase sin if a believer happens to stumble into sin on rare occasion. No man can lay any other foundation but Jesus Christ.

When a person believes in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for salvation, accepts Him as their Savior, and seeks forgiveness with the Lord Jesus by way of prayer, they are given a new heart and new desires by the Spirit. No doubt about it. But these men you refer to in John 6:63 did not understand that fact. They were seeking to be justified by the flesh alone without God.

I believe Sanctification (Which is holy living, putting away sin, and in doing good works) is by the working of all three persons of the Trinity or Godhead. I believe we cannot do any good without God doing the good work through us. So any good done in my life is not my own work alone, but it is ultimately the work of God done in my life (John 15:5, Philippians 2:12). So all praise and glory goes to God for any good done in my life and there is no boasting in my own good work because such a thing does not exist. Only God alone is good, and we must continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off, just like the Jews (See: Romans 11:21-22).

Ephesians 2:9 is referring to Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism because they are the kind of works a man would boast in himself by doing so.
Ephesians 2:10 is referring to a different kind of work (i.e. God directed works done through the believer) because these are the kind of works a person is created unto Christ Jesus to do (Which is ordained of by God).

Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to the Justification Process in salvation (Which is the first step or stage in the salvation process). This is a process of salvation that is without works because we are being saved by God's grace and mercy.

Ephesians 2:10 is an allusion to Sanctification (i.e. the next step or stage in the salvation process). This is God doing the good work through you to put away sin, and to live holy, and be fruitful for His kingdom.

A_Thinker said:

Romans 11:6 And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

P.S. I'm sure that you do plenty in service to God. I just read your enlightening testimony.

Every encouraging word, every prayer in support of God's work, as people see you persevere in the faith and joy in the Lord ...

"Not by might ... not by power, but by My Spirit", says the Lord ...

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Romans 9, Romans 10, and Romans 11 is in reference to Israel. Israel sought to be saved by Law Alone Salvationism via the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole or contract.

Grace did not really enter into the equation all that much for them in their false Pharisee religion. So Paul here was trying to get them to enter the Justification Process of salvation which does not involve works because they made salvation all about Works and not grace. In this sense, their "Works Alone" view of salvation (that did not include God's grace) is contrasted to their rejection of God's grace through faith in Christ. Romans 11 is not in reference to the believer who is already walking in the faith and they decided to be faithful to God as a part of their salvation. It is referring to the Jew who needs to be saved.

So yes; Works Alone (without God's grace) is no longer grace if it be of "Works Alone," (like in the Pharisee religion).

A_Thinker said:

So ... given that you began the christian walk in the spirit, ... and you going to keep it in the flesh (i.e. by works of responsibility) ?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that brings life; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

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The passage does not refer to keeping the Moral Law, or doing good works by the Spirit after being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. Romans 4:4 is in context to the false Jewish religion and "Circumcision Salvationism." Just skip back to Romans 3:1, and you will read this:

"What advantage then hath the Jew?
or what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

Jamdoc said:

We're saved because of a substitution, Jesus Christ for us. That's Grace. You have to put your whole faith that Jesus' finished work on the Cross is what is saving you, and nothing you could have done personally would save you. You have to have faith as if you did absolutely nothing else, just put your future entirely in the hands of Jesus and freefall for Him to catch you.

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Problem. No Scripture actually says this. Sure, there are Provisional Atonement Salvation verses that refer to how Christ paid the price for the sins of the entire world, etc.; But surely you don't believe in Universalism (Note: See this thread here to learn more about the Provisional Atonement). Yes, Christ can be our substitute, but even you believe we must first exercise faith in Jesus in order for the sacrifice to be applied to our lives. I believe we are saved by faith in Christ, too. But James tells us what a true faith looks like. James says,


James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Can a dead faith save anyone?
James says even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
So James is comparing a belief alone kind of faith to that of demons.
So this is not good to have that kind of faith.
I believe there are some who think they can sin and still be saved and yet they think works are important to do. So they will do works in Christ's name, etc. but they will also work sin or iniquity or lawlessness. We see that this kind of faith is condemned by the Lord Jesus Himself in Matthew 7:23. For those who did wonderful works in His name were told to depart by Jesus Himself because He said they worked iniquity (or lawlessness - as some translations say). In essence: They justified sin with the thinking they were saved and they also did good works. Jesus is saying that this kind of faith is not acceptable in Matthew 7:23. Just read the context. In Matthew 7:26-27, Jesus says that everyone who does not do what He says, they are like a fool who built their house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 confirms this. It says every soul who does not hear (does not obey) that prophet (JESUS), they shall be destroyed.

Yes, it is true, that we can have forgiveness of sins by having faith in Christ's blood for salvation (Romans 3:25), but we also need to "walk in the light" so that the "blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin."

Walking in the light is loving your brother (1 John 2:9-11).
1 John 3:10 says he that does not love his brother is not of God.
1 John 3:15 says whoever hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Jamdoc said:

Then do works and obey the law why? Because you think if you don't Jesus won't catch you? That's not putting faith in Jesus. No, you obey the law and do works because you love God and want to serve Him.

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Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly and righteously in this present world.

The purpose and reason Christ died for us was that He might sanctify and cleanse the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27).

Paul says a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

The author of Hebrews says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Jesus says any branch that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6).

In the Parable of the Talents: The servant who was faithful over a little was told to enter into the joy of His Lord (Matthew 25:21); Yet, the unprofitable servant was told to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30).

Bible Highlighter said:

This was said to those who did not even believe in Jesus and His grace to begin with.

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Actually, it was Jesus talking to His disciples after the unbelievers had left, so ...

Bible Highlighter said:

Titus 2:11-12 says that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live godly and righteously in this present world.

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Agreed ...

Bible Highlighter said:

The purpose and reason Christ died for us was that He might sanctify and cleanse the church with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-27).

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Rather, I would counter that Jesus died, primarily, because God loves us ...

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Bible Highlighter said:

Paul says a person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

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Actually, this text refers to Interlopers in the faith, who are out to take advantage of the faithful ...

Bible Highlighter said:

The author of Hebrews says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

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Standard Christian belief is that we are saved via the holiness of Christ ...

2 Corinthians 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jamdoc said:

No, because God never intended for us to go to Heaven in the first place, His plan for us was to take care of Earth, so a life being cut short is not a blessing even if it means they go to heaven, because humans are meant to be on earth, not heaven. When all things are made new, we will be on a new earth, not heaven. There's also a lot of character building here, that they will never experience. So it's not a blessing to die as a baby, it's just also not a curse that should make people be ripping their hair out and getting angry with God over. I was angry with God for a long time, years, because of the unjust, false doctrine of original sin.

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Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the Garden) or be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God is dependent on your just humbly accepting God's charity (where you are today)?

Bible Highlighter said:

Jesus says any branch that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6).

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Jesus does say this.

However, every believer has, in believing, produced fruit pleasing to God ...

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Bible Highlighter said:

In the Parable of the Talents: The servant who was faithful over a little was told to enter into the joy of His Lord (Matthew 25:21); Yet, the unprofitable servant was told to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 25:33)

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Perhaps the one (buried) talent was Faith ...

This servant certainly did not display FAITH in his Master ...

Jamdoc said:

Some people, are very limited in what works they can do. I'm a cripple, most days, I can't walk more than a dozen feet or so. I don't have a wheelchair either. So what works am I going to do?
I HAVE to place my entire faith in Jesus, because I have no faith in myself to be able to do things to please God. If it were my deeds that earned my way into God's presence, I'd be doomed.

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Jesus says,

In other words, God is going to require more of me, than he will of you, but I would not say that you are completely off the hook in this modern digital age.

You can preach the gospel on YouTube, or on forums, etc.
You can even help the poor via online.
You can connect with other Christians online and pray for them, and do good unto them, and give them whatever what little extra you have left over each month to help. There are many ways to love the brethren, love our enemies even online.

I grew up in the 80's. So I know that there was a time when the internet is not like it is today. So what if you were in your condition during the early 80's?

Well, one could save up for a wheelchair and go to the streets to preach Jesus and to help the poor. They could put out flyers looking for other Christians that believe like they do and to call so as to meet up (so as to love the brethren). If people sought to hate you for preaching the gospel on the streets, love them in return and speak words of love to them in return, and pray for them. Even if it took 2-5 years to save for a wheelchair to do this, then they should focus on doing so if that was their situation and they knew the truth of God's Word.

Nick Vujicic is a man who was born without limbs, and he preaches for Jesus Christ.


Granted, unfortunately his statement of faith appears to agree with what most churches teach today:
https://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/about-life-without-limbs/statement-of-faith/

His net worth is debatable. Some say it is 500,000 and others say it is 1-5 million.
I pray that he is not holding on to great riches and he distributes that wealth to those who are truly in need and in spreading the gospel and in helping others to live righteously.

Anyways, as long as men are alive there is always hope for them to accept the truth of what God's Word really says. Most are on the widegate path. Yet, Jesus said, narrow is the way, and few be there that find it.

A_Thinker said:

Jesus does say this.

However, every believer has, in believing, produced fruit pleasing to God ...

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

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Not negating grace here. Again, I believe it is essential that we need God's grace and mercy first and that this is the primary foundational part of our salvation. This does not get us off the hook in serving God and entering into the Sanctification Process.

A_Thinker said:

Perhaps the one (buried) talent was Faith ...

This servant certainly did not display FAITH in his Master ...

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There is no doubt that a proper faith leads to works, but in this example in Scripture, his lack of works showed that he was not allowed into God's kingdom and he was punished instead. So this shows that we cannot be saved by a belief alone and be unprofitable servants in the sense of trusting in the finished work of Christ alone. He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). Those who do not bring forth fruit will burned or destroyed (John 15:1-6).

A_Thinker said:

Rather, I would counter that Jesus died, primarily, because God loves us ...

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

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Keep reading... and you will run into the "Condemnation" mentioned in Scripture (i.e. John 3:19-21). Verse 20 is particularly noteworthy. It says everyone who does evil hates the light. So a person who thinks they can do evil and be saved by having a belief alone Jesus does not understand John 3:20 in what it plainly says. Everyone who does evil hates the light. The light is Jesus.

Jamdoc said:

Physical death happens because Adam brought sin into the world. Spiritual death happens when each person commits their own sins. The eternal punishment of the spirit is earned only by our own sins.

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The eternal punishment of the spirit is earned by denying Christ. Good works and sin do not determine our salvation.

A_Thinker said:

Actually, this text refers to Interlopers in the faith, who are out to take advantage of the faithful ...

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It does not matter what false believers are being described or not. The characteristic of these false believers is that they deny God by being reprobate unto every good work. So a true believer cannot be reprobate unto every good work and be saved, otherwise they would be denying God like these false believers.