Which of the following people are saved?

Bible Highlighter said:

Jesus said children are of the Kingdom.

Click to expand...

Bible Highlighter said:

The problem in believing that babies are not saved is kind of like a dog owner who kicks the poor animal like a football across the room because it poops on their white carpets (because the poor animal has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick). It is inhumane to believe in such a way. They are innocent in the fact that they are being punished despite having done no evil.

Click to expand...

Mark Quayle said:

Do any of us "fully understand" the Gospel?

Click to expand...

bling said:

I believe there is a very good reason for why it is very important for a child to live and grow to the age they can fulfill their earthly objective, but if we are assured a baby is "saved" just like an adult is "saved" with no difference then it would be better for the baby to die (we know they are saved) than to become an adult and possible be lost?

Click to expand...

bling said:

I do not think I am explaining it to you very well.
You do not have to "save" a person who is not lost. Only after they are "lost' do you need to save them. Babies are not lost until they sin, so until they sin they are save. The sinner needs to be saved, not the innocent.

Click to expand...

mcarans said:

That was apparently the view of the Spanish Conquistadors who had babies baptised before dashing their heads against rocks on the basis that the souls would go to heaven and they wouldn't have to deal with potential enemies when the babies grew up.

Click to expand...

bling said:

I agree they are in the Kingdom, but where does Jesus say exactly children are in the kingdom (we are to be like children to enter the kingdom)?

Click to expand...

Bible Highlighter said:

My deepest apologies. Okay. That is 1 million times percent better, but this is still not exactly correct in my understanding of the Bible. Yes, babies will go to Heaven, but hypothetically speaking alone (not that it would ever be a possibility with God): If Christ did not die on the cross for man's sins, then everyone would be doomed to condemnation (including babies). I believe the stain of Adam's sin was upon every person who came into existence (except for Jesus because he was born of the seed of the woman - whereby the sin of Adam was not transferred to Him; Hence, why He came into the flesh via by the virgin Mary).

Granted, again, I do not think there was any possibility that Christ would have not succeeded in His mission dying for mankind's sins because God's plans always come to pass, and GOD is love. For the very goodness of God would not allow for the innocent to suffer and then perish at His final judgement.

Click to expand...

mcarans said:

That was apparently the view of the Spanish Conquistadors who had babies baptised before dashing their heads against rocks on the basis that the souls would go to heaven and they wouldn't have to deal with potential enemies when the babies grew up.

Click to expand...

mcarans said:

For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

Click to expand...

mcarans said:

For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby

Click to expand...

2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian

Click to expand...

3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian

Click to expand...

4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered

Click to expand...

6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity

Click to expand...

7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

Click to expand...

mcarans said:

For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

Click to expand...

Ricky M said:

I don't believe we are held responsible for Adam's sin, but we do fall under his punishment by being born into a world run by an entity who's only goal is to lead us to sin.

Click to expand...

bling said:

If all these people are “saved” then killing a baby would be a blessing for that baby?

If at conception and for some time afterwards a baby is innocent, then it would not need salvation, so would the baby be in a safe condition?

Should we be happy when a baby dies?

If there is “nothing” for the baby by grow to a mature adult can obtain over dying as a baby then there is no reason for us to desire the baby to grow to maturity, knowing they will intentionally sin (because if they reach maturity they will sin)?

If mature adults do have an earthly objective which can only be fulfilled on earth, then we want our babies to become mature adults.

Click to expand...

Bible Highlighter said:

Dear Jamdoc:

You said,

"Explain 1 Corinthians 5:5 using your works based salvation doctrine."
~ Quote by: Jamdoc.​

I will quote this part of what you said in two parts (in reverse order). In other words, I will, address the latter half of what you said first, and then I will address the beginning part of what you said (after I first explain the latter half of what you wrote).



Well, this is not a true statement to what I actually believe. I do not believe in "Works Alone Salvationism" which is implied by your statement here when you say "your works based salvation doctrine." This suggests that I do not believe we are saved by God's grace. So your statement here is a false accusation. Yet, this is no surprise; Jesus said we would be accused falsely on His account (Matthew 5:11). For clarification:

I believe salvation is based on God's grace. That is the foundation. That is the base. Jesus is that grace. Jesus is the foundation like the foundation of a house. No man can lay another foundation but Jesus Christ. So to say that I believe in "works based salvation" is patently false. I believe we are saved by the work of God. This would be salvation in the work of God in...

#1. "The Justification Process" (i.e. Believing in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (the gospel), receiving Jesus as one's Savior, and in seeking forgiveness with Him by way of prayer) (Which is a process of salvation that is not based on works but God's grace, and mercy - Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-5), and in:

#2. "The Sanctification Process" (that follows afterwards) whereby all three persons of the Trinity (or Godhead) work in the believer's life to be fruitful in the gospel, helping the poor, loving the brethren, loving their enemies, and in putting away grievous sins like lying, lusting, hate, etc. (Under our free will cooperation in surrendering to the Lord); For Jesus said that if a branch does not bear fruit, it is cut down and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6). The servant who was faithful over a little was told to enter into the joy of His Lord (Matthew 25:21), and yet the unprofitable servant was told that they were to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30). Paul says you can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16), and the author of Hebrews says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

If a believer happens to stumble into a sin on rare occasion, do they do a good work to offset that sin? No, of course not. They go to God's grace (Which is the base and or the foundation) by confessing their sin to Jesus. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9 cf. 1 John 2:1). Confessing sin is with the intention of forsaking that sin because John also says "we walk in the light... and the blood of Jesus Christ ... cleanses us from all sin" (Which is the context - 1 John 1:7). Walking in the light is loving your brother (See: 1 John 2:9-11). For Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.



As to address 1 Corinthians 5:5:

Well, if you were to read the context, it condemns the man who committed fornication. Just look at the bolded words in red below.

"I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."
(1 Corinthians 5:9-13).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners,
shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).​

It is saying above here that forincators will not inherit the kingdom of God!
This means that fornicators are not saved.
The words "inheriting the kingdom" is dealing with salvation because we read in Matthew 25 the following words:

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat..."
(Matthew 25:34-35).​

Now, let's read 1 Corinthians 5:5 (in light of the context of what we just read).

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5).

1 Corinthians 5:5 is a Glorification Salvation verse. It is speaking of salvation in the future tense when the Rapture happens. "The dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) (Note: Where are the dead in Christ rising from? This would be Abraham's bosom; Then after the Rapture, faithful believers who die then go directly to Heaven).

Also, it needs to be stated here: 1 Corinthians 5:5 is NOT saying that salvation cannot be had in the present tense if they seek forgiveness with the LORD. Paul was merely hoping that this fornicating believer would seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and be saved (by confession) before they died, and that they would THEN have the hope to be a partaker in the Rapture. 1 Corinthians 5:5 is describing a destruction of their flesh or body and not the destruction of the entire person whereby they would die. It is possible that they could be on the road to death quicker, as a result of their sin, but this was to push them to seek forgiveness with the LORD in order to have salvation again before they physically died.

Furthermore, this Christian Corinthian fornicator was delivered unto Satan. This means they are Satan's and not in God's possession anymore. Meaning, they are of the devil's kingdom and are unsaved like the rest of the devil's kingdom. With the prodigal son, he had gotten fed up by his own sin filled life and the emptiness in it and the problems it caused him. There was no peace. The Christian Corinthian fornicator was delivered unto Satan in a similar way like the prodigal son's sinful or prodigal situation. In the case in 1 Corinthians 5:5, this time of being in the devil's possession (Meaning he was unsaved) was to show the Corinthian believer the futility and despair of his own sin (and lack of peace in not being saved) so as to get him to break him with a godly sorrow so as to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ, and come back to God's people and express his sorrow and new change of life. For if the Corinthian believer were to do this, he would be saved on the Day of Glorification or the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Satan would be an instrument in his chastisement of his physical body as a result of his sin; And this would give him the push or nudge to seek forgiveness with the Lord and find peace and salvation again (like when he first had it when he first accepted Jesus). There is no true salvation, peace and love if one is in their sins or justifying sin.



This sounds like gnosticism to me. That the body can sin, and yet the soul and the spirit does not sin and can be saved (despite what the sinful body does). St. Augustine helped to push this belief, and then John Calvin and his followers help to propagate it (Which is now the dominant belief in most churches today). But it's true origins is the enemy. In the garden: One of the first lies by the devil was to convince Eve that she could break God's command and not die. Gnosticism was later revived in John's day and he wrote about how there would be those believers who said that they do not have sin [when they do sin] (1 John 1:8). For the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).



Wow. Really? You really believe that?!
How can God be good if this is the case?
Can God agree with sin?
Surely not.

Anyways, the Corinthian believer was not killed. His flesh was persecuted or destroyed in the sense of like that of something similar to what happened to Job (even though Job was not being cast out and neither did he temporarily lose his salvation in such a situation, either). Job's flesh met destruction, but he himself was not destroyed.

Besides, it is implied in 2 Corinthians 2 that this fornicator Corinthian believer sought forgiveness with the Lord and he was trying to come back, and the brethren were not allowing him to come back; But Paul was telling the Corinthians to restore him back into the fold. At least, that is what is a strong possibility here (When looking at the whole counsel of God's Word). For we read in the 2nd letter to the Corinthians this...

"Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. " (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).​

Anyways, I hope this helps;
May God's good ways be upon you (even if I strongly disagree with your unbiblical view of Soteriology).

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ J.

Click to expand...

Strong in Him said:

They might know that they've done wrong, but if they haven't heard of God or the Gospel, how will they know they have even sinned against God; never mind what they have to do to put it right (accept Jesus)?



I don't believe that God would condemn them for sin if they have no concept of what sin is, how they have sinned against God and how they can repent.
I don't believe he's that mean.



Again, who says that God will condemn people for sin when they have no idea what sin is, how they have sinned against God and that it is possible to repent and be forgiven?



I don't believe that.
I believe God will judge them according to what they know and what they have received.



We don't know what God's judgements would be in such cases, but we can trust his mercy, compassion, goodness and love.
He is the One who has been sinned against, and he will do what is right - and out of his mercy and compassion.



Again, I don't believe they will be punished for all eternity for something that they didn't know about. They may have known that they did wrong, and apologised and tried to make amends; but if they don't know that they sinned against God, why would they be punished in the same way as those who DID know they were sinning against God, and didn't care?

When Peter stood up at Pentecost to preach about Jesus, he told the crowd that the One that they had crucified was the Messiah, Acts of the Apostles 2:36. When the crowd heard what they had done, THEN they were "cut to the heart" and wanted to know what to do. As far as they were concerned before Peter spoke, they had just crucified a man; a false Messiah who had been a threat. When Peter told them the truth; they were convicted of their sin and wanted to repent. Same with John the Baptist, and all the prophets before him; when they told people that they had sinned and would be punished, THEN the people repented. See also Jonah and Ninevah.
All the way through the Bible people, and not just Jews, were told that they had sinned against God and given a chance to repent; so why would God, in the future, destroy people who have never been told of their sin, never been taught about him and never had a chance to repent?



Of course - the Great Commission; what we were commanded to do.
But people HAVE died without hearing the Gospel; like I say, I do not believe they will be condemned for not believing what they didn't know.



So we start off in the book of life, are removed when we sin and get put back in again when/if we are saved?
God must be constantly removing people then writing their names back in again.



But he doesn't.
JESUS died to take the punishment for our sins. If we were going to be punished by illness every time we sinned, there would have been no need for Jesus' death.
God does not give his children depression, cancer, Parkinson's disease, dementia or anything else because they have sinned; the implication would be anyway that when the person repented, the illness would disappear. God has provided a way for us to be forgiven though Jesus.



In the NIV it says "sinful nature".
The term "flesh" in the NT does not always mean a literal body; flesh and blood. "Flesh" is another way of talking about a sinful, human nature. A Christian is led by the Spirit, and walks in the Spirit, or lives and serves God in their own strength - we ask God for wisdom, James 1:5, or we try to figure it all out on our own, with our own minds

A person may be "handed over to Satan" and tested in some way, or allowed to go through some kind of difficulty, so that they will learn to die to, and deny, self; put God first and trust in him. It doesn't mean they will be punished by having a physical illness.



Some people believe that, certainly.
I believe that Jesus took the punishment for our sins. It would make no sense to put Jesus through all that if God was going to punish people by illness every time they sinned.



And yet there are, and have been, some Christian leaders who preach the Gospel and make disciples but are secretly committing adultery/fraud, gambling, getting drunk or whatever, who hide it successfully and don't have any physical or other problems.
Whereas someone like Joni Eareckson-Tada has been in a wheelchair for years, and I don't believe is a worse Christian than any of us. Her diving accident happened because she did not check the depth of the water she was diving into - not because God struck her down.

Click to expand...

Jamdoc said:

2 Samuel 12:22-23
Romans 7:9-11
Matthew 18:3
Matthew 18:10
Matthew 19:14
Logic question. What sin does an infant commit that would earn them eternal punishment? The only way to condemn a miscarriage, stillborn, abortion, or infant who dies, is to adopt the "original sin" doctrine which imputes Adam's sin directly on all of us, which is ridiculous.

Click to expand...

mcarans said:

For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

Click to expand...

GaveMeJoy said:

Matt 19:14 seems to infer some possible covering from sin for small children. Thanks for your response

Click to expand...