Which of the following people are saved?

hedrick · Jan 20, 2020

mcarans said:
Thank you. Since it starts "Since we must make judgments about God’s will from his Word" and doesn't quote from the Bible, it seems a lot like an opinion rather than something Scriptural. Also it is only about children not the adult cases I raised.

The specific references they're talking about were pretty well understood at the time. The canon specifically references 1 Cor 7:14. Passages such as Mat 19:14 are in the background.

To my knowledge, almost every Christian group thinks that infants are saved. I admit it's a bit odd that this is true for Reformed theology. Unlike others who think that people can't be blamed for sin until they reach a certain age, Calvin and much of Reformed theology believed that the fact that we start out with a corrupted nature makes us alienated from God from the beginning. It is only through grace that infants can be saved, not because they are free from a sinful nature -- whether they have committed any actual sin or not.

hedrick · Jan 20, 2020

Steve97 said:
Where do I find the age of accountability in the Bible? What happens to babies and young children when they die? | GotQuestions.org

The argument given in this article would seem to apply to adults as well as children, at least baptised adults.

Indeed it suggests an interesting basis for baptismal salvation: not the baptism automatically creates faith, but that baptism incorporates us into God's people, and according to his covenant God is committed to saving all of his people.

I think the challenge for people who think all infants are saved (and that's most of us) is showing why the same shouldn't apply to adults.

Anthony2019 · Jan 20, 2020

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

I believe that God has foreknowledge of who will accept or reject Him, although it is His will that all will repent and believe in Christ.
With regard to the other questions, I simply do not know who will be saved. God alone will make that final judgement in His perfect wisdom and love. My life, as St Therese of Lisieux put it, is to "be charitable in my thoughts toward others at all times, for Jesus has said: ‘Judge not, and you shall not be judged.'”

Der Alte · Jan 20, 2020

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.
1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 20, 2020

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

We are not God. So we can not say what will happen to any of those groups. However I know of countless stories Christian NDE's where people have died, not knowing God, in the formal sense, but in the process of dying God revealed Himself to them, and saved them, they became believers. Often these people return from the grave, with this message.

We as believers in Jesus are responsible for our own faith, and lives, and should share Jesus, but we are not to doubt the kindness, and justice of God, who will not leave man without a chance at life.

Resha Caner · Jan 20, 2020

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so.

It doesn't matter what I think. They are in God's hands.

Josheb · Jan 20, 2020

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

Persons 4, 5, possibly 6, and 7 are saved if in fact God saved them and their respective professions of faith were sincere.

Once purchased a person is not his/her own (1 Cor. 6:19) and cannot return the purchase price they did not pay for their own life. Nor are they sufficiently powerful to usurp God's work to make that work and the God Who did that work ineffective and powerless (Job 9:12 & 42:2; Rom. 8:38-39). If by the term "double predestination," readers are being asked, "Do you believe God deliberately causes some to sin and thereby actively worked/works in the lives of those individuals to damn them and actively exclude them from salvation by that activity then I reject "double predestination. I affirm John 3:18 which states all stand condemned simply and solely because they have not believed in Christ and WCF 3.1 which states what God ordained He did so 1) without being the author of sin, 2) without causing violence to human will, and 3) without doing violence to the contingency of secondary causes. God is sovereign over all of creation, including but not limited to sin, humanity, and time (Ps. 115:3; Isa. 46:10; Dan. 4:35; ). Sin is sovereign over humanity (Gen. 2:17). Humanity is sovereign over nothing apart from Christ (Jn. 15:5). We can be only one of two types of slaves, either slaves of sin or slaves of righteousness (Rom. 6:16-18). There is no third alternative presented in scripture; humanity is not autonomous (Ps. 24:1), especially not in the sinful state (Rom. 1, 6-8).

Sin is lawlessness (1 Jn. 3:4). Sin is any unrighteousness (1 Jn. 5:17). Sin is any unfaithfulness (Rom. 14:23). Sin is any imperfection (Mt. 5:48). Sin is both a function of conduct and disposition. We sin because were sinful and we are sinful because we sin. God and God alone can change that condition. He does so through the shed blood of His Son (Acts 20:28) and that blood is not shed ineffectively.

John 3:18 ESV
"...whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Tropical Wilds · Jan 20, 2020

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

That’s up to God, and a matter between God and those in the above situations.

joshua 1 9 · Jan 20, 2020

mcarans said:
1. A miscarried baby

I know for sure that a "miscarried" baby is saved because I had a very vivid and very real dream about my daughter in Heaven. There were two angels. One was reading a book and the other was sort of an ogre that never took his eyes off of her. He was always watching to keep her safe. It turns out that the book the intelligent angel was reading was the book of her life that God writes before we are born. (Psalm 139:16) Actually she never made it to the womb. Over time I understand more about what I saw in this dream. For example there was a lot of toys, maybe fifty or sixty of them. They were all brand new in the box and she never opens them. Then later on I found out that these are gift from family members that goes there to visit with her. She did not understand why I did not bring her a gift. Later on she found out I was her father and they were very excited about that. Because of course they want to learn as much as they can about their parents. They can be comforted if their parents do not make it to Heaven but we can imagine there are lots of babies there. Jesus talks about "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." (Matthew 19:4) If we do not like Children then we will not be happy in Heaven. Of course if they never experience Earth and it's fallen condition then all they know about the Earth is what we teach them.

spiritfilledjm · Jan 20, 2020

1. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
2. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
3. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
4. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
5. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
6. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
7. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

Jamdoc · Jan 20, 2020

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

1. Definitely, still innocent, they could not have possibly sinned then
2. Possibly still innocent, it can depend on individual development. A lot of 5 year olds won't really know what Jesus' sacrifice means beyond just regurgitating what they're told, likewise, they won't fully understand the concept of sin either. As Paul said, "alive without the law once". It's also possible that they did know right from wrong clearly and did wrong consciously.
3. Probably not, they understand right from wrong, have done wrong (that's that Romans 3:23 there, you're not going to have someone who never does wrong). They could have some sort of developmental disability that might change that.
4. Yes, they've developed an end of life stage degenerative disease, that's biology, that's the flesh dying, if they're saved, their spirit probably feels trapped.
5. Yes, their flesh forgot, their spirit does not, but if they don't remember how to live in the spirit and only know the flesh, they're going to walk in the flesh, I'd think someone would remind them and teach them the gospel again though.
6. Depends heavily on the nature of their mental illness, is it a biological cause, a chemical imbalance, they can possibly still be saved, maybe they're being chastened for disobedience, or.. if they were never truly saved, demonically possessed.
7. It sounds like a 1 Corinthians 5:5 situation, destroying the sinful flesh so that his spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So.. possibly he was saved and just walking in the flesh.

Jamdoc · Jan 20, 2020

spiritfilledjm said:
1. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
2. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
3. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
4. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
5. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
6. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination
7. I have not been given the authority by God to make this determination

I'd agree but, I'm looking at this as a thought exercise about what you believe about salvation, about an age of accountability, about mental illness or TBI.

mcarans · Jan 21, 2020

Jamdoc said:
I'd agree but, I'm looking at this as a thought exercise about what you believe about salvation, about an age of accountability, about mental illness or TBI.

Yes exactly, that's the point of the post.

Strong in Him · Jan 21, 2020

mcarans said:
What about a 10 year old or a 5 year old who rejected the Gospel? Is it a case of the age at which they full understand what they are rejecting?

Does anybody fully understand what they are rejecting; that's the question?
How many people hear the Gospel, accept Jesus, receive eternal life, KNOW his amazing love, are filled with the Holy Spirit, and THEN say; "no, all this is not for me; I choose to reject it, and him"?

This is very different from people who may go into church at Christmas, hear the Christmas story and say "no, I don't believe that". Or they may hear about Jesus and say, "if Christians are anything like my obnoxious, pious, church going neighbour, I don't want to know." Or "calls himself a Christian? He wouldn't baptise my baby".
I have heard/heard about all of the above.
It's likely that person would then be judged (by us) as "someone who has rejected the Gospel", when in fact they have rejected the church/our example of what a Christian is.

I think, in your examples, the Lord is able to distinguish between someone with Alzheimer's who has temporarily forgotten their faith, and someone who was never saved in the first place; similarly between someone who gets drunk in a moment of stupidity/to block out great pain and has no idea what they are saying, and someone who is sober and deliberately, and knowingly, rejects Jesus.

coffee4u · Jan 21, 2020

A miscarried baby is definitely covered since their soul can neither confess or reject. So long as a person is under the age of accountability or ability, but only God knows when this is or the state of someone's heart.

1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

Jamdoc · Jan 21, 2020

Strong in Him said:
Does anybody fully understand what they are rejecting; that's the question?
How many people hear the Gospel, accept Jesus, receive eternal life, KNOW his amazing love, are filled with the Holy Spirit, and THEN say; "no, all this is not for me; I choose to reject it, and him"?

This is very different from people who may go into church at Christmas, hear the Christmas story and say "no, I don't believe that". Or they may hear about Jesus and say, "if Christians are anything like my obnoxious, pious, church going neighbour, I don't want to know." Or "calls himself a Christian? He wouldn't baptise my baby".
I have heard/heard about all of the above.
It's likely that person would then be judged (by us) as "someone who has rejected the Gospel", when in fact they have rejected the church/our example of what a Christian is.

I think, in your examples, the Lord is able to distinguish between someone with Alzheimer's who has temporarily forgotten their faith, and someone who was never saved in the first place; similarly between someone who gets drunk in a moment of stupidity/to block out great pain and has no idea what they are saying, and someone who is sober and deliberately, and knowingly, rejects Jesus.

Once they know right and wrong and choose to do wrong knowing it's wrong, they would be accountable for it. It's less about understanding the gospel and eternal life, you can never hear the gospel, but understand that you do things that are wrong, like lying, or fornicating, or getting drunk, then without hearing the gospel, you're in serious jeopardy. The revelation of God through nature and reality itself is enough to convict someone of sin into death, but not enough to save them. You don't have to consciously reject the gospel to be condemned, we're all condemned once we know right from wrong and sin. The conscious aspect is to hear the gospel, accept it, and put your faith in Jesus to pull them out of condemnation. Otherwise, why preach to people in other parts of the world, if they're ignorant of the gospel and can't accept or deny it and God would give them a free pass on account of their ignorance of the gospel, that'd make no sense.
On Alzheimer's... it's not a temporary loss of memory, it's dementia, it's progressive and eventually fatal.

Strong in Him · Jan 21, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Once they know right and wrong and choose to do wrong knowing it's wrong, they would be accountable for it.

That's not the same as hearing the Gospel and choosing to reject it; knowingly rejecting Jesus, his forgiveness and what he did on the cross.

Jamdoc said:
It's less about understanding the gospel and eternal life, you can never hear the gospel, but understand that you do things that are wrong, like lying, or fornicating, or getting drunk,

Many people would not regard getting drunk or telling lies as being wrong - not compared with "big sins" like murder.
It IS about understanding the Gospel. It's about understanding that you can be a good person, do heaps of charity work and even go to church, but if you are thinking that your own goodness will get you to heaven and reject that salvation is from Jesus alone, you are still a sinner in God's eyes. Believing in and accepting Jesus, confessing him as Lord and receiving the Holy Spirit means a person is born again and becomes a child of God.

Jamdoc said:
You don't have to consciously reject the gospel to be condemned, we're all condemned once we know right from wrong and sin.

Yes, but if someone never hears the Gospel, never knows that they are condemned sinners but that forgiveness and reconciliation with God is possible, they cannot be judged in the same way as someone who DOES know but chooses not to accept.

Jamdoc said:
On Alzheimer's... it's not a temporary loss of memory, it's dementia, it's progressive and eventually fatal.

I know.
But a person with Alzheimer's may forget they are a Christian, or may say they are not, and then forget they've said that.
That would not be THEM talking, but their illness.

Jamdoc · Jan 21, 2020

Strong in Him said:
That's not the same as hearing the Gospel and choosing to reject it; knowingly rejecting Jesus, his forgiveness and what he did on the cross.

Many people would not regard getting drunk or telling lies as being wrong - not compared with "big sins" like murder.
It IS about understanding the Gospel. It's about understanding that you can be a good person, do heaps of charity work and even go to church, but if you are thinking that your own goodness will get you to heaven and reject that salvation is from Jesus alone, you are still a sinner in God's eyes. Believing in and accepting Jesus, confessing him as Lord and receiving the Holy Spirit means a person is born again and becomes a child of God.

Yes, but if someone never hears the Gospel, never knows that they are condemned sinners but that forgiveness and reconciliation with God is possible, they cannot be judged in the same way as someone who DOES know but chooses not to accept.

I think we differ here, I think even if they lived on the other side of the planet and were never preached the gospel, say Native Americans before Columbus came over, no way they heard the gospel (I guess Mormons believe that they did but..). So all of those people, never really had a chance for salvation, but they're still convicted for the sins that they did.
You have to understand what a gift the gospel really is that we WERE given a chance to be spared from the punishment for our sins. Not everyone has gotten that chance. It kind of sucks, but we will see they all get just punishment.

I know.
But a person with Alzheimer's may forget they are a Christian, or may say they are not, and then forget they've said that.
That would not be THEM talking, but their illness.

On this we agree. A person with any form of dementia.. its going to be the illness doing those things, in a similar vein, the drunk does the same thing. The reason we're commanded not to get drunk and to be sober is not because God just doesn't like booze, so many things that God commands are not just pet peeves of his but they're for our own good for protection. Don't get drunk, so you don't lose control of yourself and do something stupid, like get into an accident, or renounce your faith. The command against fornication is to avoid disease, and avoid children out of wedlock, because to have children not brought up in a loving family can ruin the child. Like when God commanded not to eat shellfish, or not to eat pork, or carnivores/birds of prey, it wasn't because he just didn't like those things, because he later got rid of those prohibitions, it was to keep the Hebrews from getting sick from parasites and allergies to shellfish. He commanded those with leprosy to mark themselves by ripping their clothes, cover their upper lip (think like a surgical mask to keep them from coughing on others and spreading the disease) and shout "unclean unclean!" and live without the camp, why? Because he hated those people? No, because those people needed to be quarantined to prevent other people getting sick.

So that's why we're not commanded "don't do stupid things while drunk" it's "be sober minded". Cause God knows when people get drunk they're likely to act a fool out of their control.

So can't you just see the man, being christian, getting drunk, renouncing his faith and getting side swiped by a car and killed, destroying the flesh so the soul might be saved, in the next instant looking at Jesus shaking his head.. how's that for a rebuke?

zoidar · Jan 21, 2020

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

I don't believe in double predestinaton, and I don't know if I really believe in single predestination either.

1. A miscarried baby

I believe heaven, since a baby never had a chance to sin.

2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian

I'm more towards heaven. Each five year old will be judged individually.

3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian

There is no clear answer. Each 15-year old will be judged individually. Hoping in God's mercy, like for everyone.

4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away

If a Christian willfully rejects Christ, I doubt there will be a heaven.

5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered

Doesn't matter if one remembers. If the Holy Spirit is inside, there can be salvation.

6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity

I don't know if there is such a person. God knows what to do.

7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

You can't accidently reject Christ. If you do it willingly and whole heartly, I don't see salvation.

JacksBratt · Jan 21, 2020

mcarans said:
For the following people, please specify if you think they are saved or not and what leads you to think so. Also please indicate if you believe in single or double predestination or not.

1. A miscarried baby
2. A 5 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
3. A 15 year old who dies before becoming a Christian
4. A Christian who develops Alzheimer's or other dementia, rejects that they were ever a believer and passes away
5. A Christian who injures their brain, suffers permanent amnesia, forgets they were ever a Christian, dying many years later having never remembered
6. A person with split personality where one personality identifies as Christian and the other rejects Christianity
7. A Christian who drinks too much one day, while drunk rejects their faith and is killed in an accident before they can remember and repent

I believe that only Christ can judge someones heart...

However... I'll bite here....

This is my take. 1 & 2 never reach a point where they are mature or mentally capable to be held accountable for their actions or understand the concept of sin, repentance etc... They will be in paradise.

Number 3, a 15 year old.. may or may not... depending on their mental capacity.. cannot say.
A Christian who loses their ability to think... is then placed in the same situation as 1 and 2.

The rest are examples that you could argue for hours... while in the end.. Christ judges with a just and righteous verdict.

It is not ours to argue.. It is ours to believe in Christ and trust in His Name.

Which of the following people are saved?

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