The fatal flaw of Universalism

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What happens when you die?

You will go to heaven or hell.

Not at all. The Bible you subscribe to says you will enter

the Kingdom of Heaven...not the "harp-on-a-cloud" Heaven

or

the Lake of Fire...not Hell.
 
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
You "have only scratched the surface of God's Word," yet you "know enough to refute it [Universalism]"?

Amazing!
See how easy it is to see through UR.

Common sense is really all you need.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
You "have only scratched the surface of God's Word," yet you "know enough to refute it [Universalism]"?

Amazing!

Dear Laz: It is amazing to behold individuals who have barely scratched the surface of the mighty God of Glory attempting to refute that which exceeds their grasp.

Elementary = relating to, or dealing with the simplest elements or principles.

Abecedarian, basic, beginning, elemental, introductory, rudimental, rudimentary.

ἀρχή = arche =

Beginning, the first principles/ the beginning of Christ.

Elementary facts concerning Christ. .

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 6 - New American Bible (Revised Edition)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Dear Laz: It is amazing to behold individuals who have barely scratched the surface of the mighty God of Glory attempting to refute that which exceeds their grasp.

Elementary = elementary = relating to, or dealing with the simplest elements or principles.

Abecedarian, basic, beginning, elemental, introductory, rudimental, rudimentary.


1: ἀρχή
(Strong's #746 — Noun Feminine — arche — ar-khay' )
"beginning," is used in Hebrews 6:1 , in its relative significance, of the beginning of the thing spoken of; here "the first principles of Christ," lit., "the account (or word) of the beginning of Christ," denotes the teaching relating to the elementary facts concerning Christ. See BEGIN , B.

Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 6 - New American Bible (Revised Edition)

I admit you guys are smarter than me! I will not deny that.

But in God's Word you're not!
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I admit you guys are smarter than me! I will not deny that.

But in God's Word you're not!


Charles: This has absolutely nothing to do with how smart any of us are ! ! !

What is at issue is how deep has our ears been dug?

You, our dear Baptist, must be awakened to fresh avenues of our mighty God or forever trot in circles in the same ole, same ole evenues of elementary.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I admit you guys are smarter than me! I will not deny that.

But in God's Word you're not!

I may not be as smart as you think - I'm just a layman who had questions needing answers. I'm not even trained in Greek or Hebrew. Fine Linen, on the other hand, impresses me as a genuine scholar...

It may not be a matter of smarts. I remember my brother and I watching old westerns when we were kids. Whenever we saw a telephone pole or contrail, we burst out with "Fake! Fake!"

As far as God's Word, your pet translation is just that, a translation. It is not really God's Word, except in the original languages. My pet translation is just a translation, as well, in the same manner. However, it will most likely fall to the most consistent translation to be in the best alignment with the Word of God.
 
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
I may not be as smart as you think - I'm just a layman who had questions needing answers. I'm not even trained in Greek or Hebrew. Fine Linen, on the other hand, impresses me as a genuine scholar...

It may not be a matter of smarts. I remember my brother and I watching old westerns when we were kids. Whenever we saw a telephone pole or contrail, we burst out with "Fake! Fake!"

As far as God's Word, your pet translation is just that, a translation. It is not really God's Word, except in the original languages. My pet translation is just a translation, as well, in the same manner. However, it will most likely fall to the most consistent translation to be in the best alignment with the Word of God.

I agree it's not a matter of smarts.

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 18:3

Actually the dumber the better in one sense.

It's to simple for some of the complicated minded people.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
I may not be as smart as you think - I'm just a layman who had questions needing answers. I'm not even trained in Greek or Hebrew. Fine Linen, on the other hand, impresses me as a genuine scholar...

Dear Laz: Alas F.L. cannot even spell scholar. What I have is a deep interest in our Heavenly Father and an unwillingness to bounce across the surface of the mighty words of our Lord!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lazarus Short
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,386
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What happens when you die?

You will go to heaven or hell.

That is the judgement Paul was speaking of, if you believe Paul wrote Hebrews, I do.

You will stand before Jesus later for judgement if you are saved.

You will stand before God later at the Great White Throne of Judgement if lost.
You are claiming something contrary to the verse you quoted.
Does the verse say, "it is appointed unto men once to die, then you go to heaven or hell"?(nope)


Charlie24 said:
Heb. 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After death you are judged! There is no more chance to repent.

That would mean the lost will stay lost with no chance of entering heaven.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You are claiming something contrary to the verse you quoted.
Does the verse say, "it is appointed unto men once to die, then you go to heaven or hell"?(nope)


Charlie24 said:
Heb. 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After death you are judged! There is no more chance to repent.

That would mean the lost will stay lost with no chance of entering heaven.

Yes, after death you are judged...but God does not spell out right there what that judgment is. So, don't suppose that He sends you on to Heaven or Hell. Remember, He did not create a dualistic Heaven versus Hell Cosmos. Search the Scriptures. The answer you find may be like the treasure buried in a field, for which you must dig many holes to find.

Can you dig it?
 
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
You are claiming something contrary to the verse you quoted.
Does the verse say, "it is appointed unto men once to die, then you go to heaven or hell"?(nope)


Charlie24 said:
Heb. 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After death you are judged! There is no more chance to repent.

That would mean the lost will stay lost with no chance of entering heaven.
You are claiming something contrary to the verse you quoted.
Does the verse say, "it is appointed unto men once to die, then you go to heaven or hell"?(nope)


Charlie24 said:
Heb. 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After death you are judged! There is no more chance to repent.

That would mean the lost will stay lost with no chance of entering heaven.
You are claiming something contrary to the verse you quoted.
Does the verse say, "it is appointed unto men once to die, then you go to heaven or hell"?(nope)


Charlie24 said:
Heb. 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

After death you are judged! There is no more chance to repent.

That would mean the lost will stay lost with no chance of entering heaven.

Steven, do you believe at death we will go instantly to heaven or hell?

Why or why not?

I am going to ask questions for a while and let you answer.
 
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Yes, after death you are judged...but God does not spell out right there what that judgment is. So, don't suppose that He sends you on to Heaven or Hell. Remember, He did not create a dualistic Heaven versus Hell Cosmos. Search the Scriptures. The answer you find may be like the treasure buried in a field, for which you must dig many holes to find.

Can you dig it?

Are you speaking to me or Steven? Your post was to Steven, but sounds like it may be addressed to me in reference to my post.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Yes, after death you are judged...but God does not spell out right there what that judgment is. So, don't suppose that He sends you on to Heaven or Hell. Remember, He did not create a dualistic Heaven versus Hell Cosmos. Search the Scriptures. The answer you find may be like the treasure buried in a field, for which you must dig many holes to find.

Can you dig it?

In reference to whether we go to heaven or hell right away.

Luke 16:22-26

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
OK, here is my view of the parable, from my book:

Now we reach the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, one of the usual pillars and proofs of the Hell theory – but there is a lot more going on here. First, all of Jesus’ parables, as far as I can tell, are teaching about the Kingdom of God, especially how it operates. We should not view any of it as being literally true in itself. Consider how Jesus explains the parable of the Sower (Matthew 13:24-30) to His disciples. In verses 37-39 He gives it all away – He Himself is the Sower, the field is the world, the good seed are the children of the Kingdom, the tares are the children of the “wicked one,” the enemy is the devil, the harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. We could say that His parables are allegories or similes. No one has any problem with political cartoons – elephants and asses are political parties, bears are Russia, bulldogs are the UK, etc.



Given that, how should we regard the characters of this parable/allegory/simile? We will go step-by-step. First off, who is the unnamed rich man? We see him wearing purple, the color of rulers, of royalty. He also wears linen, the fabric of the priesthood. God Himself granted Israel to be a kingdom of priests, in Exodus 19:6. With ten tribes long lost to exile, and most of Judah and Benjamin left behind in Persia, the little kingdom around Jerusalem was “the last man standing,” or the Israel of record. It had a king, it had priests, and it was prosperous – at least, it saw itself as rich in the ways of God. Given all this we should view the rich man as the nation of Judah.



Lazarus has a name, but we must figure him out too. If the rich man is Judah, and Lazarus is poor, could he be a foreign nation, one not rich in the ways of God? Confirmation comes in Luke 16:21 – he wanted to be fed with crumbs from the rich man’s table. This takes us back to Jesus’ brief encounter with the Canaanite woman – she humbly accepted being called a dog, but hinted that she yet deserved some crumbs (Matthew 15:22-28). This sad picture is completed by the dogs licking Lazarus’ sores. Lazarus, then, stands for any heathen nation, or for all of them – in fact, the name “Lazarus” in its Hebrew form, is very close to the name of Abraham’s servant Eliezer, who God refused as Abraham’s heir. Any hearer of Jesus who knew the stories of Genesis would not have missed that. Just as in the parable of the wedding feast, where people are brought into the feast/Kingdom indiscrimately, Lazarus dies and is brought to Abraham’s bosom.



Now as I’ve said before, a funny thing happened on the way to the Septuagint. Jews had more contact with Greek language and culture than they had had before the Babylonian exile. As part of that contact, after the exile, some of their ideas about Sheol began to change. In their minds, Sheol came to be compartmentalized like the Greek Hades. Part of it was now thought to be for the righteous, called the Bosom of Abraham. Another part was for the wicked, and called “hell” in the KJV, but CCR footnoted as “hades.” These parts were thought to be separated by a fiery gulf - all that would have been easily understood by Jesus’ hearers.



OK, we’ve got the rich man and Lazarus both dead, meaning that Judah and the gentiles (nations) are both now in a new condition. The rich man (Judah) sees that Lazarus (the Nations) is now accepted into the Kingdom of God. Jesus spoke of this when He told His Jewish hearers, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matthew 21:43). Do you see how He rejected the figurative fig tree of Judah, just as He cursed the literal fig tree, as we read in Matthew and Mark? I would go so far as to say that the Jewish nation had become the basket of very good and very bad figs we read about in Jeremiah. These represent the Jews who responded to Jesus, and those who did not.



Back to our parable – Lazarus is in a good place, and no doubt the “good fig” Jews are there with him. The early church was made up of these good fig Jews, and more and more non-Jews came in until this whole group came to be called Christians, and made a final split from Judaism. The rich man, and those he stands for, is not in such a good place. These “bad figs” have suffered Roman oppression, the siege of Jerusalem, destruction of the Temple, exile and dispersion. Persecutions went on and on for many centuries, in many countries. Truly, Judah the rich man is now tormented in a flame. He calls out to Abraham for the smallest favor – a drop of water – and could that be a reference to the water Jesus told the woman at the well of? Yes, I think it is.



Abraham admits that the rich man is his son, but reminds him that his time and status as God’s favored nation has come and gone. Truly, his place has been taken by “a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” I won’t try to label any specific nation, but for the sake of convenience, let’s just say it is the “nation” of Christendom, a term seldom heard of in today’s secular world. Since the split between Judaism and Christendom, a fiery gulf has indeed come between them, with few people bridging that gap or being converted one way or the other.



The rich man asks Abraham to send warning to his five brothers. This is another reason to see him as Judah, for the man Judah had five full-blooded brothers, as we can easily read in Genesis 29:32-35 and 30:17-20. They are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun. Abraham insists that Moses and the prophets (which Jesus said testified of Him) should keep the brothers from the rich man’s fate, but then the rich man makes the odd request that someone witness to them from the dead. Truly, this is an odd request, for the Jews disputed the resurrection of Jesus, and did not record the resurrection of those few whose graves were opened after that of Jesus. History bears out that these resurrections would have no impact on those who rejected Jesus. Abraham in the parable confirms this.



There it is, my view on the parable – a prophecy, not a proof text for Hell. Jesus is using a well-understood mythological template as a way to say things without some of His audience understanding the meaning. In our time, many still do not. Consider a literal Hell, based on this parable involving a figurative rich man, figurative Lazarus, and figurative Abraham – it is just absurd.
 
Upvote 0

Lazarus Short

Well-Known Member
Apr 6, 2016
2,934
3,009
74
Independence, Missouri, USA
✟294,142.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
To be fair, Charlie, I'm completing a 240+ page book, covering the KJV from Genesis to the Revelation, so be aware that I probably already have a ready answer to anything you may bring up. I simply copy/pasted the above in a very short time.
 
Upvote 0

Charlie24

Newbie
Oct 17, 2014
2,306
963
✟103,731.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
OK, here is my view of the parable, from my book:

Now we reach the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, one of the usual pillars and proofs of the Hell theory – but there is a lot more going on here. First, all of Jesus’ parables, as far as I can tell, are teaching about the Kingdom of God, especially how it operates. We should not view any of it as being literally true in itself. Consider how Jesus explains the parable of the Sower (Matthew 13:24-30) to His disciples. In verses 37-39 He gives it all away – He Himself is the Sower, the field is the world, the good seed are the children of the Kingdom, the tares are the children of the “wicked one,” the enemy is the devil, the harvest is the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels. We could say that His parables are allegories or similes. No one has any problem with political cartoons – elephants and asses are political parties, bears are Russia, bulldogs are the UK, etc.



Given that, how should we regard the characters of this parable/allegory/simile? We will go step-by-step. First off, who is the unnamed rich man? We see him wearing purple, the color of rulers, of royalty. He also wears linen, the fabric of the priesthood. God Himself granted Israel to be a kingdom of priests, in Exodus 19:6. With ten tribes long lost to exile, and most of Judah and Benjamin left behind in Persia, the little kingdom around Jerusalem was “the last man standing,” or the Israel of record. It had a king, it had priests, and it was prosperous – at least, it saw itself as rich in the ways of God. Given all this we should view the rich man as the nation of Judah.



Lazarus has a name, but we must figure him out too. If the rich man is Judah, and Lazarus is poor, could he be a foreign nation, one not rich in the ways of God? Confirmation comes in Luke 16:21 – he wanted to be fed with crumbs from the rich man’s table. This takes us back to Jesus’ brief encounter with the Canaanite woman – she humbly accepted being called a dog, but hinted that she yet deserved some crumbs (Matthew 15:22-28). This sad picture is completed by the dogs licking Lazarus’ sores. Lazarus, then, stands for any heathen nation, or for all of them – in fact, the name “Lazarus” in its Hebrew form, is very close to the name of Abraham’s servant Eliezer, who God refused as Abraham’s heir. Any hearer of Jesus who knew the stories of Genesis would not have missed that. Just as in the parable of the wedding feast, where people are brought into the feast/Kingdom indiscrimately, Lazarus dies and is brought to Abraham’s bosom.



Now as I’ve said before, a funny thing happened on the way to the Septuagint. Jews had more contact with Greek language and culture than they had had before the Babylonian exile. As part of that contact, after the exile, some of their ideas about Sheol began to change. In their minds, Sheol came to be compartmentalized like the Greek Hades. Part of it was now thought to be for the righteous, called the Bosom of Abraham. Another part was for the wicked, and called “hell” in the KJV, but CCR footnoted as “hades.” These parts were thought to be separated by a fiery gulf - all that would have been easily understood by Jesus’ hearers.



OK, we’ve got the rich man and Lazarus both dead, meaning that Judah and the gentiles (nations) are both now in a new condition. The rich man (Judah) sees that Lazarus (the Nations) is now accepted into the Kingdom of God. Jesus spoke of this when He told His Jewish hearers, “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” (Matthew 21:43). Do you see how He rejected the figurative fig tree of Judah, just as He cursed the literal fig tree, as we read in Matthew and Mark? I would go so far as to say that the Jewish nation had become the basket of very good and very bad figs we read about in Jeremiah. These represent the Jews who responded to Jesus, and those who did not.



Back to our parable – Lazarus is in a good place, and no doubt the “good fig” Jews are there with him. The early church was made up of these good fig Jews, and more and more non-Jews came in until this whole group came to be called Christians, and made a final split from Judaism. The rich man, and those he stands for, is not in such a good place. These “bad figs” have suffered Roman oppression, the siege of Jerusalem, destruction of the Temple, exile and dispersion. Persecutions went on and on for many centuries, in many countries. Truly, Judah the rich man is now tormented in a flame. He calls out to Abraham for the smallest favor – a drop of water – and could that be a reference to the water Jesus told the woman at the well of? Yes, I think it is.



Abraham admits that the rich man is his son, but reminds him that his time and status as God’s favored nation has come and gone. Truly, his place has been taken by “a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.” I won’t try to label any specific nation, but for the sake of convenience, let’s just say it is the “nation” of Christendom, a term seldom heard of in today’s secular world. Since the split between Judaism and Christendom, a fiery gulf has indeed come between them, with few people bridging that gap or being converted one way or the other.



The rich man asks Abraham to send warning to his five brothers. This is another reason to see him as Judah, for the man Judah had five full-blooded brothers, as we can easily read in Genesis 29:32-35 and 30:17-20. They are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun. Abraham insists that Moses and the prophets (which Jesus said testified of Him) should keep the brothers from the rich man’s fate, but then the rich man makes the odd request that someone witness to them from the dead. Truly, this is an odd request, for the Jews disputed the resurrection of Jesus, and did not record the resurrection of those few whose graves were opened after that of Jesus. History bears out that these resurrections would have no impact on those who rejected Jesus. Abraham in the parable confirms this.



There it is, my view on the parable – a prophecy, not a proof text for Hell. Jesus is using a well-understood mythological template as a way to say things without some of His audience understanding the meaning. In our time, many still do not. Consider a literal Hell, based on this parable involving a figurative rich man, figurative Lazarus, and figurative Abraham – it is just absurd.

If it's a parable, it's the only one that Jesus gives a name to a man.

What does this teach us about what happens immediately after death?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums