The State of the Dead!!!

Lovetrusion said:

I see a lot of intellectualism, a lot of you are using to understand the Lord. We cannot get to understand or claim all knowledge of God and His things if we do not petition Him, so the Holy Spirit can reveal all to us. By the Holy Spirit, I came to understand that our Lord keeps our spirit and truly I tell you ghosts do not exist. If that were the case the God has no control at all, and what is stopping the Satan and his devils from taking/tricking people's soul to hell in the spirit world. Basically, somewhere along the lines of us dying and the day of judgement there has to be a way God shows his mercy and justice as he is sovereign.

On hell - a lot of people including Christians actually believe eternal hell is fake news. If anything the Devil has done a good job making sure people are deceived of that truth. In fact the deceit has even liquefied the eternal afterlife repercussions of our lives lived - into something that morphs the after life and reincarnation which is part of the New Age stuff.

So all I am saying is you cannot interpret the Word of God by your own mind because as humans we know absolutely nothing. I wish people new how God views our wisdom and intellect; one truly wouldn't saying whatever they put together with so much conviction.

I also see that a lot of the times we truly do not understand or know the blasphemies we are saying before the Lord.

Then the question of the Lake of Fire, the Lord guarantees for eternity those that are unrepentant, unbeliever, idolaters, etc. Because the Lord lives in the eternal and his justice and mercy and wrath shall also be eternal. When you hear the Lord say Satan shall be thrown in the bottomless pit - think eternal deep not 5 KM deep.

All I have said cannot be sought through intellectual scrutiny foremost but through your interaction with the Holy Spirit - pray for these things for they are mysteries and so you should ask Him, for the Lord is there to listen.

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I think of Satan as allegory for evil thoughts and actions, mistakes intentional and unintentional. To tell you the truth, Revelation does not make much sense to me. I spent more time reading the Gospels, Acts and the Epistles. Occasionally I read Old Testament books. I read the entire Bible in order two or three times, remembered a little, forgot much.

BrotherD said:

You are correct brother, the scriptures are plain for anyone to see them and say ok i get it. The tree of life being taken away is the reason why Adam and Eve didn't live forever.

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So Adam and Eve, if they never fell and remained in their pure sinless state, could have physically died anyway if they merely chose to abstain from the tree of life? (which would not have been sinful for them to do)

Partaking of the tree was necessary for them to live forever whether they sinned or not? The were not created intrinsically immortal?
Is that what you are claiming?

Ecclesiastes 9 is clearly just saying that those who are deceased will never again take part in the affairs happening on the Earth, i.e. "under the sun". It doesn't prove, or come close to proving the doctrine of soul sleep, that all who die are simply unconscious until the Judgment Seat of Christ, or His Second Coming.

This is what we call a stretch.

visionary said:

One of the greatest deceptions is the devil's first lie. "Thou shalt not die" If there is any kind of existence after death, then God lied. Death is the absence of life. That is what makes the resurrection so powerful both in the reality and in its testimony against those who believe in life after death without the resurrection. If there was life after death, then why didn't Lazarus give his testimony?

I understand how the "ghosts" imitating bygone people from the past, have many believing in life as a spirit being. God never made us to exist as just spirits like angels. He never promised us an angelic spirit body. Our life after death as always been through the resurrection of the body. Even in the creation, where, from the earth, we were formed and life was breathed into us, did we become a living soul. When the breath of life departs from our body it goes back to God where it came from, not as an angel but as a memory.

I have heard nurses talk about the last moments of death of a patient and afterwards how there is a "smell" some foul and some sweet that lingers for a moment.

I have also heard and read stories of people coming back from the death with their stories of what it was like. But like a computer shutting down, the quick saving of the file, in their case, their life flashes before them, their mind as the essence leaves the body hears, sees, and understands. But also note that their body doesn't have any more visions, hearings, or stories to tell within the next 10 minutes. There is a shut down time, after which their life is no more. So even if they come back to life, the only few moments at death's door do they remember, whether it is a vision, a sense of what is happening to them and their body, it is all only those last few moments. If someone has been dead for a couple of hours, days, etc, you will not have them tell you anything further than those precious moments of mind shutdown. I will not deny these people their last moment experiences, but it not the experience of the dead.

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Actually, death is the separation of the human body and soul. It is not the absence of life:

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ " (Luke 16:22-24)

BobRyan said:

My wife's relatives were deeply into the spirit medium business at one time before she was born and witnessed a lot of strange ghosts-of-the-dead stuff somewhat like the spirit medium in 1 Sam 28 who was able to "conjure up" by "the familiar spirit" whomever you may wish to have "brought up".

The Bible condemns that sort of thing as 1 Sam 28 also states. The same reason Adam and Eve were told not to go near the tree of knowledge of good and evil -- because the evil one was there.

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Yes, it is risky business to attempt to contact the dead through mediums and should probably only be done as a very last resort, if perhaps all other efforts to cleanse a home fail.

BrotherD said:

We would have to ignore all the scriptures in the OP about the wicked will perish and be as ashes under the saints feet. Look at what Jude says about Sodom and Gomorrah:

Jude 1:7 KJV — Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

We know it is not still buring as of today. The fire from the Lord consumes until nothing is left to burn. Check out the ashen remains of Sodom and Gomorrah on youtube.

Now i do believe that the Lord will punish people by fire but the duration depends on how much you know of the Lords will and did not do it; check these scriptures:

Luke 12:42-48
Look at what 47 and 48 say:
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This tells me that the Lord in his infinite mercy will not punish someone severely for not knowing his will but those that did know his will he will give them what is due. God is:

Exodus 34:6,7
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

An eternal place of torment is defemation of character, because that means God is not who he says he is and cannot be satisfied.

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I believe that people death is the best way to describe hell, simply because it is the opposite of life. I don't believe that God punishing people in hell forever makes him unmerciful, as a matter of fact, I would say that it shows how merciful he is to his children, that he would save us from such a fate. In response to your quote from Jude, Sodom and Gomorrah is exactly what Jude says it is, an example. He is using Sodom and Gomorrah to present his point, and that point is that there will be punishment for the ungodly.

About your quote from Luke, I personally interpreted the lashes as being degrees of punishment. The one who did know God's will, but didn't do it, will be punished worse than the one who did not know. I don't enterpret it as lengths of time, but as degrees of punishment over time.

Another point that I would like to add, based off of my under Buddhist, nothingness is heaven. Does it make sense that God would punish Buddhist with the very thing that they want?

BrotherD said:

We would have to ignore all the scriptures in the OP about the wicked will perish and be as ashes under the saints feet. Look at what Jude says about Sodom and Gomorrah:

Jude 1:7 KJV — Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

We know it is not still buring as of today. The fire from the Lord consumes until nothing is left to burn. Check out the ashen remains of Sodom and Gomorrah on youtube.

Now i do believe that the Lord will punish people by fire but the duration depends on how much you know of the Lords will and did not do it; check these scriptures:

Luke 12:42-48
Look at what 47 and 48 say:
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This tells me that the Lord in his infinite mercy will not punish someone severely for not knowing his will but those that did know his will he will give them what is due. God is:

Exodus 34:6,7
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

An eternal place of torment is defemation of character, because that means God is not who he says he is and cannot be satisfied.

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I interpret Jude using Sodom and Gomorrah as an example as Jude using Sodom and Gomorrah in an attempt to get people to realize what was at stake. He was not using them as a literal example, but as more of a, look this is similar to this, type of thing.

I interpret Luke as saying that those who know God's will and don't do it will receive worse punishment (degree of punishment not length of punishment) Han those who did not know his will.

God is merciful, so merciful that he would forgive and spare anyone who accepts Jesus as Lord and repents of their sins, from the fire. I don't think that God punishing those who said that they didn't want his mercy as him being unmerciful, he offered to pay bail and the unbelievers said no. Therefore, they sit in jail and serve their eternal sentence that they were warned about.

Another thing, based on my limited knowledge on eastern religions, some do interpret Nirvana in a way, that basically associates lack of self as Nirvana (freedom). If you cease to exist, then you have no self, are you suggesting that God will give those people (who don't believe in him) what they want after punishing them?

truefiction1 said:

Actually, death is the separation of the human body and soul. It is not the absence of life:

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ " (Luke 16:22-24)

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That is a de'va ju. The place is The City of God. The time is after the millennium.
Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That is the only time the saints will see those tormented in the Lake of Fire.

visionary said:

That is a de'va ju. The place is The City of God. The time is after the millennium.
Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

That is the only time the saints will see those tormented in the Lake of Fire.

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All metaphorical imagery, and nothing in it indicates that the devouring fire (which God is) annihilates anyone from existence.

parousia70 said:

So Adam and Eve, if they never fell and remained in their pure sinless state, could have physically died anyway if they merely chose to abstain from the tree of life?

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This is an interesting point you bring up. What about in the new heavens and new earth, is one eventually going to stop eating from it in that endless age? Per Revelation 21-22, I don't see a hint of that happening. But as to Adam and Eve though, it was never meant for man to live forever in the beginning to begin with. If it was meant for man to live forever in the beginning, why threaten man with death? In the new heavens and new earth age man is no longer being threatened with death, yet this same tree of life that was present in the garden, is present in that age as well.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:. The way a lot of people interpret this, they take this to mean instant immortality, as in, eat of it just one time, one is then an instant immortal and can never die from that point on. But is that the correct way to interpret it though?

Let's assume it is the correct way to interpret it.

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Straight from God's lips---Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it

Let's analyze this for a moment. Was the tree of life in the garden? According to verse 9 is was. Did God ever say they are not allowed to eat from it? No. He only said that about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, when God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, this obviously included eating from the tree of life.

With that in mind, let's still assume that if one eats of the tree of life just one time, they become an instant immortal that can't be reversed. Since God clearly said they can freely eat from every tree in the garden except for the knowledge of good and evil, that obviously included eating from the tree of life.

So what would happen if they did eat from the tree of life before they fell, assuming one is correct to interpret that to mean they become instant immortals that can't be reversed? What would be the point of Genesis 3:22 at that point? The damage would already be done. So why take the tree of life from their midst in order to prevent them from becoming instant immortals after the fall if they already became instant immortals before the fall?

I would then think that eating from the tree of life just one time, one then does not become an instant immortal. It has to be the continual eating from it that allows one to live forever without dying. Take this tree away from man altogether, like God did in the beginning, no one can help but die. Which then gets us back to the some of the OP, since the OP initially brought up the tree of life.

In order for someone to suffer in torment in the LOF for forever without end, something has to be keeping them alive in order to do so. So what would be keeping them alive for forever? No one in the LOF is going to be eating from the tree of life while there. Clearly the tree of life is connected with living forever, the fact Genesis 3:22 indicates that it is, and that this same tree of life will be present in the eternal age within the gates of the city. So unless someone can provide us with what keeps those cast into the LOF alive for forever, it should be pretty safe to conclude that they don't live for forever after having been cast into it.

BrotherD said:

That is the Buddist perception but I don't think we could fully comprehend what a life without God is. When God says second death we don't know how that feels, i certainly don't want to find out.



I used Sodom and Gomorrah in reference to the "eternal fire" part saying that eternal in that sense doesn't just mean a forever type of thing.



I agree.



No one knows how that feels, lack of self, it could be diffrent from others. All i can go on is his words that say the righteous will inherit eternal life and the wicked the second death. An eternal sinner is not of the bible. Personally it makes me love the Lord more knowing that some of my family won't burn forever while i enjoy paradise, although i sincerely hope they choose eternal life with Christ. When he says every knee shall bow and tounge shall confess Jesus is Lord they will realise what they forfeited.

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I don't believe that Jude is using Sodom and Gomorrah as a literal example, since he adds "eternal fire" at the end of the verse. Sodom and Gomorrah ended, this will not.

I to hope that our families get saved, but at the end of the day, we are all made by God and God gets to do what he wants with his creation. God will do what is right (not necessarily what is merciful) to all. If we trust in Christ and strive to be like him by repenting of our sins, then he will be merciful, if we turn down bail, then bad things await. That is what I believe. If the fire is not eternal, then the Bible is either contradicting itself or the writers are exaggerating to an extreme degree.

dqhall said:

He may have been suffering on earth; a living hell for some.

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That's not what the scripture says. It says that Lazarus was with Abraham and there was a chasm between them. The rich man was in a place of torment..
They weren't on earth.

JacksBratt said:

That's not what the scripture says. It says that Lazarus was with Abraham and there was a chasm between them. The rich man was in a place of torment..
They weren't on earth.

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In the parable it was called the bosom of Abraham if I recall correctly, where Lazarus ended up. There were plenty of righteous people who died before Abraham was even born, such as Abel, for example. So where did they go when they died? It couldn't have been the bosom of Abraham.

JacksBratt said:

That's not what the scripture says. It says that Lazarus was with Abraham and there was a chasm between them. The rich man was in a place of torment..
They weren't on earth.

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Other people used a passage about Lazarus of Bethany, the brother of Martha and Mary in the Gospel of John to argue the dead sleep.

On the day of judgement God will separate the good from the bad. Evil will pass away. God is not one to torture a man forever. The evil reach all sorts of pain and suffering in this world. If the good are made to suffer, the bad can not escape judgement.

The Bible is not without errors. If the Old Testament was perfect, Jesus would not have come to teach a better way.

DavidPT said:

In the parable it was called the bosom of Abraham if I recall correctly, where Lazarus ended up. There were plenty of righteous people who died before Abraham was even born, such as Abel, for example. So where did they go when they died? It couldn't have been the bosom of Abraham.

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You are right... I don't know what you call the place where they went. Their consciousness must be somewhere. The unrighteous in one place and the righteous in another.

dqhall said:

Other people used a passage about Lazarus of Bethany, the brother of Martha and Mary in the Gospel of John to argue the dead sleep.

On the day of judgement God will separate the good from the bad. Evil will pass away. God is not one to torture a man forever. The evil reach all sorts of pain and suffering in this world. If the good are made to suffer, the bad can not escape judgement.

The Bible is not without errors. If the Old Testament was perfect, Jesus would not have come to teach a better way.

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There will be a final judgement day. However, that is only for those who died, from the beginning of time, up until the rapture.

At the rapture all those who died and were righteous by God's judgement, and those still alive who are righteous, are raised, given new bodies and judged.

Those not raptured and all those from the rapture on, righteous and unrighteous, will be judged at the Great white throne judgement.

BrotherD said:

The State of the Dead

Psalm 6:5 KJV — For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:10 KJV — Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psalm 115:17 KJV — The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Job 7:9,10
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

The Dead Are Dead/Sleep

2 Samuel 12:21-23
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The Wicked Dead:

Psalm 37:20 KJV — But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:2 KJV — As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Righetous Dead:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Only the Righteous Live Forever:
Romans 6:23 KJV — For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Genesis 3:22 KJV — And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

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Like you I was convinced of the Soul Sleep Theory from 1973 to 1990 but when I began to read near death experience accounts I was forced to take a whole new look at my understanding of 2 Corinthians 12 verses two to four as well as many other verses like this that in English seem so simple and straightforward but it has been said that English is a legalistic language that was affected by lawyers and legislation over centuries whereas Hebrew and Greek are very different and not so well suited for the production of the loophole free sentence or clause.