This is not the appropriate thread to debate if the hebrew and greek were accurately translated and which language takes precedence. Please direct your convo in a dm or something
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Repent of our Sins?
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This is not the appropriate thread to debate if the hebrew and greek were accurately translated and which language takes precedence. Please direct your convo in a dm or something
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Oldmantook
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Indeed as that is what Scripture states. The scriptures also state that Judas was also a believer who sinned and thus lost his salvation as I already described per John 17.
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Oldmantook
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Whose wrath? Not subject to God's wrath but subject to Satan's wrath which is where you err.
Oxmoron in your eyes; not mine. Can you as a believer at anytime of your own will refuse to repent? Yes or No?
I already in my previous post to you described Reformed belief in referring to Judas. Deal with what I already wrote. I don't have to rewrite it for you do I?
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John 17 makes no mention that Judas believed and lost his salvation.
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Unbelievers are subject to the wrath of Satan? Please show this.
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All you have to do is follow the Scriptures. Judas was a devil, son of perdition before he did the deed.
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God judges the heart(s) knowing each heart fully, etc...
IOW's, How much and for what and this and that and whatnot, God will or will not or whatever, hold each one accountable or not or whatever, for this or that or whatnot or another or whatever, is always going to always be a "ball in his court" only and alone, so to speak, etc, and/or/but is not supposed to ever be up to us ever, to ever fully truly know fully for absolutely sure with anyone ever, etc, or judge for absolutely sure with anyone, etc, not even with our own selves, etc, but only Him (God) and Him (God) alone, etc...
It is always a potential "risk" to sin in other words, etc... How you will be judged by it or for it/them depends on an innumerable amount of a lot of "factors", etc... (innumerable and uncalculable and unknowable fully to us anyway, etc, but not with God, etc)...
But God, as the only true knower and discerner of hearts, always judges the hearts always, etc, and always very truly and rightly and justly, etc...
Anyway,
God Bless!
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As far as we go, whenever or wherever we might think someone is not saved, etc, we are always supposed to always give them "the benefit of the doubt" that they are saved, or at least could or can be saved, etc. Otherwise we might be sinning in the process when and where we are not doing that, etc, or rather are not doing that, etc (always giving everyone and anyone the benefit of the doubt always, etc) (that they are or can be saved, or are or can be good, or a good God fearing and honoring believing person or individual or whatever, etc)...
When we are not giving people the benefit of the doubt in this, then we might want to check ourselves again to see if we are actually (still) saved or not, or ever were actually truly saved to begin with, our own selves, etc...
Anyway,
God Bless!
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Was Paul wrong in his teaching that we are saved apart from works?
No. This is merely a misunderstanding by many within the church on Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6. In these portions of Scripture, we know from the whole of His Word that:
#1. Paul was referring to Initial Salvation or the Justification Process (Which is a process of salvation that does not include works) for one is first saved by God's grace and mercy and by His work of redemption through faith without works. For when a person seeks forgiveness with the Lord for the first time, they are not saved by anything they primarily did, but they are saved by Christ's mercy, and by believing in His finished work (i.e. His death, burial and resurrection). Ephesians 2:1 says we have been quickened. Being quickened is a one time act. Ephesians 2:8 refers to this kind of salvation as a gift. Gifts are received one time. So this is referring to "Initial Salvation." Ephesians 2:10 confirms that works will then follow one being saved. These are God directed works done through the believer (Philippians 2:13). Ephesians 2:9 refers to a completely different kind of work (i.e. Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism - because these are the kind of works a man would boast in himself in doing; Unlike the work in Ephesians 2:10 which are works we are created in Christ Jesus to do by the power and working of God).
#2. Paul was referring to "Law Alone Salvationism" (Which was in most cases in reference to trying to be saved by keeping the 613 Laws of Moses and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers). The Pharisees believed in a form of Law ALONE Salvationism that de-emphasized God's grace. We see this in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14). The Pharisee did not humble himself like the Tax Collector by crying out to God in seeking forgiveness over his sins.
Also, we know that there were a certain sect of Jews who wanted Christians to be saved by first being circumcised and or by keeping the whole of the Law of Moses.
- Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
This is why Paul spoke against Law and works in the way that he did in the book of Romans, Galatians, and Corinthians. He was fighting against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism."
- Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
- Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
- Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
- Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
- 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
- Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
- Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
- Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
- Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”
But make no mistake: Paul later spoke of the necessity of the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation in other verses. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation by:
(a) A belief in the truth (i.e. Jesus is the truth - Jhn 14:6).
(b) Sanctification of the Spirit (Sanctification is referring to works because verse 12 says that there are those who did not believe the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness; And verses 16-17 says that God and the Son has given us an eternal comfort in the hope of his grace, and that he would establish us in every good word and work).
(b) Sanctification of the Spirit (Sanctification is referring to works because verse 12 says that there are those who did not believe the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness; And verses 16-17 says that God and the Son has given us an eternal comfort in the hope of his grace, and that he would establish us in every good word and work).
Paul says in Titus 1:16 that we can deny God by a lack of works.
Titus 2:11-12 says the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously, sober, and godly in this present world.
Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and he gives grace to the humble. Paul says “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1). This is supported by Paul saying in the same chapter: “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13). To "live after the flesh" is to live after sin. To "mortify the deeds of the body" is to put to death sin out of one's body via by the Spirit. Paul is referring to spiritual life vs. spiritual death because he says in Romans 8:1 about the same thing in relation to the "Condemnation" (Note: To learn more about the "Condemnation" see: John 3:19-21, and take note that everyone who does evil hates the light.).
In conclusion:
In Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:2-6: Paul was referring to the Justification Process (Which is the 1st step in the salvation process that is without works). This process of salvation is how we are initially and ultimately saved. For if a believer happens to stumble into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to offset that sin, but they go to Jesus and they confess of their sins to be forgiven of that sin (See: 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). For Paul says shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's answer was not that we can do so and still be saved. His answer was: "God forbid" (See: Romans 6:1-2). His answer was: "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" (Romans 6:16). For Paul said that works of the flesh are these: Adultery, fornication, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, etc.; Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (See: Galatians 5:19-21). So Paul was defending the Justification Process of salvation (i.e. the 1st step in the salvation process), and James was defending the Sanctification Process in James 2:24 (i.e. the second step in the salvation process). For we are initially saved without works by God's grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Justification) when we first come to the Lord, and we are then later justified (saved) by works and not by faith alone aftwards (James 2:24) (Sanctification). For James says show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:18). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). But it is even more than just having works. One cannot justify sin. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). Most churches today preach a greasy grace or easy believism. Yet, Jesus said narrow is the way. I will choose to follow Jesus and not the popular way promoted by most churches today.
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Oldmantook
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You are prone to expressing your personal opinion without any scriptural backing. I already wrote you why John 17:6-12 states that Judas was a believer and despite that was still condemned. You provided no counter-reply whatsoever based on what I wrote. If you disagree, write down why you disagree, otherwise your personal opinion doesn't hold any weight.
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Oldmantook
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Read your Bible. You're the one who brought up the subject of wrath. I won't do your homework for you. Hint: In Revelation I'm sure you'll find the wrath of Satan directed against the saints somewhere. Seek and ye shall find.
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Oldmantook
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Scripture states he was a sinning believer because he was a thief who had the bad habit of stealing from the money bag of which he was put in charge. Did you not know that? Therefore, Judas meets the definition of 1 Jn 3:8 - "The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil."
All you have to do is follow the scriptures.
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John 17: NASB
6“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7“Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11“I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12“While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.(NASB)
Was Jesus asking on the behalf of Judas? Did Judas believe (see bolded above) what Jesus said His followers truly believed. No. What does the Bible tell us about Judas?
In John 17:12 he is called the son of perdition who would fulfill the Scriptures.
In John 6:20 Jesus calls Judas a devil:
Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
In John chapter 13 Jesus indicates all of the disciples are clean but Judas:
9Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.” 10Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”
So Judas was a devil, son of perdition and unclean. He would fulfill the Scriptures. Not only this but Jesus said it would have been better that Judas was never born:
Matthew 26: NASB
20Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. 21As they were eating, He said, “Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me.” 22Being deeply grieved, they each one began to say to Him, “Surely not I, Lord?” 23And He answered, “He who dipped his hand with Me in the bowl is the one who will betray Me. 24“The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born.”25And Judas, who was betraying Him, said, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself.” (NASB)
So far not seeing a “saved” Judas here. Can you point out any fruit which provides evidence of your claims?
So how does Judas fulfill the Scriptures?
Psalm 41: NASB
5My enemies speak evil against me,
“When will he die, and his name perish?”
6And when he comes to see me, he speaks falsehood;
His heart gathers wickedness to itself;
When he goes outside, he tells it.
7All who hate me whisper together against me;
Against me they devise my hurt, saying,
8“A wicked thing is poured out upon him,
That when he lies down, he will not rise up again.”
9Even my close friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me
Judas was son of Simon Iscariot.
Scholars have several ideas about the derivation of the surname. One is that Iscariot refers to Kerioth, a region or town in Judea. Another idea is that it refers to the Sicarii, a cadre of assassins among the Jewish rebels.
The possible association with the Sicarii allows for interesting speculation about Judas’ motives for his betrayal, but the fact that he made a conscious choice to betray Jesus (Luke 22:48) remains the same. The surname Iscariot is useful, if for no other reason, in that it leaves no doubt about which Judas is being referred to. (Warren Wiersbe)
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Dude you made the claim of unbelievers being subject to the wrath of the devil.
It is you, who actually made the claim, to clarify your assertion.
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Scripture says nothing about Judas being a believer. In fact in Scriptures Judas never refers to Jesus as Lord and always calls Him Rabbi. That shows a void of a personal relationship and commitment.
Jesus also called Judas unclean.
You have not pointed out one verse in which sheds light on Judas being a believer in the Christ revealed.
Well not following how one assertion without evidence magically leads you to the above verse.
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No the Scriptures make no such claim. If they did you would be able to show me clearly that Judas was onboard with Jesus’s ministry. All evidence points otherwise.
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I think we share the fact that God will preserve His Word.
I’ve served with men who had a Bible limit their injuries. And these were small Bibles in physical nature.
Even though retired from the Military now the Bible I have used for years for church and Bible study can easily stop any 7.62 round.
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Oldmantook
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You totally neglected to address the fact that the Father GAVE Judas to Jesus - which indicates Judas was elected by the Father = believer. It is apparent that you are unaware of what election means. Perhaps you ought to study the subject. If you have already done so, then explain to me how this verse does not relate to election. You cannot ignore certain verses to suit your own preference. Moreover the very verse you cite, v.9 states on whose behalf Jesus was asking for = THOSE WHOM YOU HAVE GIVEN ME. So of course the answer is YES Jesus did ask on Judas' behalf since Judas was given by the Father to Jesus. I suggest you read more carefully.
Furthermore, need I remind you that Judas was a devil not because he did not believe, but because he was a believer who practice stealing? Thus again, your point is moot.
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Oldmantook
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You forget easily don't you. You brought up the subject of wrath. I simply pointed out to you that you failed to distinguish between God's wrath and Satan's wrath in Revelation which so far you haven't bothered to look up. Do your homework why don't you?
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