The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

Kermos · Dec 18, 2019

renniks said:
He said that to his disciples, not us. And one of the chosen betrayed him.

Sadly, renniks, this sounds like you are disavowing being a disciple of Jesus.

It also sounds like you denying being a friend of Jesus.

Immediately prior to saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and I mean immediately before, Lord Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you" (John 15:13-15).

Kermos · Dec 18, 2019

renniks said:
Do you have any idea how arrogant that sounds?
What you do is twist the word to fit your agenda. It's sad, really.
Why even argue with free Willians? Obviously they're only doing what they're destined to do if you are correct.

I give glory to God for Wisdom, for Christ is the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24, John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8), then you call me arrogant.

You ask "Why even argue with free Willians" to wit I answer.

I love you, so I write the Truth (John 14:6, Romans 10:14, Matthew 28:18-20) to you. Free-willians who attempt to put words into Jesus' mouth practice lawlessness (Matthew 7:21-27); however, there is hope.

Hope, I can and do pray to God to open the eyes of the blind (John 9). Glorious Jesus raises the dead to life (John 11)! Hope and promise, for God promises us believers success!

Free-willians adhere to a person making a decision toward Jesus in order for the person to "accept" salvation, so it's all up to the person. For free-willians have an impotent god that cannot dictate a person's decision; therefore, based on these tenets of free-willians, free-willians appear to have no reason to pray for the lost.

The Apostle Paul wrote "I urge that entreaties [and] prayers, petitions [and] thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity" (2 Timothy 2:2) and "my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for [their] salvation" (Romans 10:1). This is unambiguous writing from Paul.

Here Lord Jesus says "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest" (Matthew 9:37-38). No ambiguity there, for Jesus is the Master Orator!

By the way, since you stripped out the post that attributes repentance to God, here is the link to the post in this thread.

I proclaim the Gospel of Christ by the Power of Christ for the glory of Christ by the gentle mercies of Christ in the love of Christ! Praise be to Jesus Who saves!

Behold in the next paragraph, the Mighty God's power in salvation.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

renniks · Dec 18, 2019

Kermos said:
THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16)

This again? How can you apply this to us? Was Judas a true believer? If he was, then we can choose to lose our salvation, like Judas did. If not, then being chosen can not mean being chosen for salvation. Jesus wasn't talking to us. He was saying he chose 12 disciples. That's it. Not every verse applies to the modern day Bible reader.

renniks · Dec 18, 2019

Kermos said:
The Apostle Paul wrote "I urge that entreaties [and] prayers, petitions [and] thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity" (2 Timothy 2:2) and "my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for [their] salvation" (Romans 10:1). This is unambiguous writing from Paul.

How does this have anything to do with free will? We all pray for people's salvation. It doesn't mean they have no will to choose or reject God.

renniks · Dec 18, 2019

Kermos said:
THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)

Again, nothing in here that does not agree with arminian doctrine.? Of course, men don't save themselves. But we certainly are responsible for our choices. Otherwise, those we "are without excuse" would have the perfect excuse, that God never gave them a chance to be saved.

Josheb · Dec 18, 2019

zoidar said:
You say God wants everyone saved but does not choose everyone. Then does God really have the ability to do what He wants?

Hm, what God wants is not dependent of man when it comes to salvation. God wants everyone saved, that we agree on.

No, God's word plainly states that and everyday ordinary observation testifies to that effect.

God wants every saved:

Isaiah 45:21-25
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, and all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory."

1 Timothy 2:1-6
"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

God does not choose everyone:

Matthew 22:1-14
"Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, 'Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.' But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' For many are called, but few are chosen."

Luke 13:22-27
"And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. And someone said to Him, 'Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?' And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from me, all you evildoers.'"

God is not dependent upon humans:

Acts 17:22-31
"So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'To and Unknown God.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

God is able to do as He pleases:

Psalm 115:1-3
"Not to us, O LORD, not to us, But to Your name give glory Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth. Why should the nations say, 'Where, now, is their God?' But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases."

Psalm 135:5-6
"For I know that the LORD is great And that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps."

I got scripture for what I posted.

zoidar said:
Do you know how God made this plan before creation?

As far as scripture discloses such concerns, yes, I do.
I got scripture for what I posted.

zoidar said:
Do you know what things God took in consideration making His plan?

Some of them, yes; I do so because scripture and scripture-informed logic informs me/us of such.
I got scripture for what I posted.

zoidar said:
If not, how do you know God didn't make His plan in correlation with His foreknowledge?

He most certainly did make His plan in correlation with His foreknowledge but there are two very important realities to be noted:

1) Correlation is not causation.

2) Any view of foreknowledge that Has God running ahead of the timeline of a person's life and lookig back to see how that person would decide on God's offer of salvation has compromised God's omniscience. If God has to go ahead to learn what will happen then He is not all-knowing.

I got scripture for what I posted.

zoidar said:
What would be the difference between God's ability and God's possibilities?

Ontology versus potential.
I got scripture for what I posted.

zoidar said:
How do you mean because of God not everyone is saved?

Already answered and addressed that question: God is not dependent upon humans for anything so who gets saved and who does not get saved is not dependent upon humans in any way other than the fact it is humans that are being saved.

Two last things to note:

1) Some of these questions are so plainly answered in scripture that not knowing the answers disqualifies anyone from taking a position to teach others.

2) Rhetorical questions to which we all already know the answers to do not make for cogent discourse, so you let me know when you're ready to discuss what scripture and the posts actually state.

Kermos · Dec 18, 2019

renniks said:
This again? How can you apply this to us? Was Judas a true believer? If he was, then we can choose to lose our salvation, like Judas did. If not, then being chosen can not mean being chosen for salvation. Jesus wasn't talking to us. He was saying he chose ten disciples. That's it. Not every verse applies to the modern day Bible reader.

No place in the Bible records that Judas "chose" to betray Christ.

No place in the Bible records that Judas believed.

No place in the Bible records that Jesus chose Judas for salvation.

The Word of God clearly states "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

Judas was not there when Jesus said these things. I do not know where you get "ten disciples".

Did you even read the all capitals paragraph and citations that you sliced and diced? It contains conclusive evidence that Jesus talks to all His disciples in all time. Don't worry, I put the all caps paragraph in again for your edification.

Again, you disavow being a disciple of Jesus. Again, you deny being a friend of Jesus since John 15:13-15 precede John 15:16.

Repentance is by/in/through God, not man, and your interpretation of repentance is wrong, and you persist in slicing and dicing posts while avoiding the accurately exegeted repentance defined post.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

Kermos · Dec 18, 2019

renniks said:
How does this have anything to do with free will? We all pray for people's salvation. It doesn't mean they have no will to choose or reject God.

Here is the link to the post that exposes the illogic of your interpretation that man chooses salvation yet your god is impotent in that your god waits for a man's decision.

Free-willians try to steal God's glory in man's salvation by way of free-will choice toward God, see Isaiah 42:8 and John 15:16).

Kermos · Dec 18, 2019

renniks said:
Again, nothing in here that does not agree with arminian doctrine.? Of course, men don't save themselves. But we certainly are responsible for our choices. Otherwise, those we "are without excuse" would have the perfect excuse, that God never gave them a chance to be saved.

You are using human reasoning in your post, not Godly discernment - you lack scriptural support your assertions - here let me explain.

You, and free-willians, do NOT AGREE with the paragraph in all caps because you say you choose Jesus which contradicts Lord Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). You disavow and deny that these words of Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), apply to all believers in Christ Jesus!

People are without excuse from the outset. People are responsible for sin.

Jesus is benefactor that imparts salvation, and man is the beneficiary. Jesus is my benefactor, and I hear His voice and He knows me and I follow Him (John 10:27).

Please carefully read the upcoming paragraph with it's citations, renniks.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

renniks · Dec 18, 2019

Kermos said:
Again, you disavow being a disciple of Jesus. Again, you deny being a friend of Jesus since John 15:13-15 precede John 15:16

I have no idea what you are talking about. I never disavolled being a disciple, or being a friend of Jesus. Are you just making stuff up?

renniks · Dec 18, 2019

Kermos said:
No place in the Bible records that Judas "chose" to betray Christ.

No place in the Bible records that Judas believed.

Then why do you use a verse about choosing the disciples including Judas, and apply it to us? Jesus chose Judas. Judas was not saved, according to you, and yet you insist this verse is about Jesus choosing us for salvation.?

renniks · Dec 18, 2019

Kermos said:
Here is the link to the post that exposes the illogic of your interpretation that man chooses salvation yet your god is impotent in that your god waits for a man's decision.

Free-willians try to steal God's glory in man's salvation by way of free-will choice toward God, see Isaiah 42:8 and John 15:16).

Our choices don't make us worthy, so no. God gets all the glory. We don't claim to save ourselves. That it's just you twisting arminians theology.

renniks · Dec 18, 2019

Kermos said:
Free-willians try to steal God's glory in man's salvation by way of free-will choice toward God, see Isaiah 42:8 and John 15:16).

If we have no free will we cannot try to do any such thing. If we have no free will, and what you say is true, God is causing us to believe as we do. Your own theology contradicts itself.

zoidar · Dec 18, 2019

Josheb said:
No, God's word plainly states that and everyday ordinary observation testifies to that effect.

God wants every saved:

Isaiah 45:21-25
"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by Myself, the word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness and will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, and all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory."

1 Timothy 2:1-6
"First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

God does not choose everyone:

Matthew 22:1-14
"Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. Again he sent out other slaves saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, 'Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.' But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.' Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' For many are called, but few are chosen."

Luke 13:22-27
"And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. And someone said to Him, 'Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?' And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from me, all you evildoers.'"

God is not dependent upon humans:

Acts 17:22-31
"So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'To and Unknown God.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' "Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

God is able to do as He pleases:

Psalm 115:1-3
"Not to us, O LORD, not to us, But to Your name give glory Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth. Why should the nations say, 'Where, now, is their God?' But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases."

Psalm 135:5-6
"For I know that the LORD is great And that our Lord is above all gods. Whatever the LORD pleases, He does, In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps."

I got scripture for what I posted.

As far as scripture discloses such concerns, yes, I do.
I got scripture for what I posted.

Some of them, yes; I do so because scripture and scripture-informed logic informs me/us of such.
I got scripture for what I posted.

He most certainly did make His plan in correlation with His foreknowledge but there are two very important realities to be noted:

1) Correlation is not causation.

2) Any view of foreknowledge that Has God running ahead of the timeline of a person's life and lookig back to see how that person would decide on God's offer of salvation has compromised God's omniscience. If God has to go ahead to learn what will happen then He is not all-knowing.

I got scripture for what I posted.

Ontology versus potential.
I got scripture for what I posted.

Already answered and addressed that question: God is not dependent upon humans for anything so who gets saved and who does not get saved is not dependent upon humans in any way other than the fact it is humans that are being saved.

Two last things to note:

1) Some of these questions are so plainly answered in scripture that not knowing the answers disqualifies anyone from taking a position to teach others.

2) Rhetorical questions to which we all already know the answers to do not make for cogent discourse, so you let me know when you're ready to discuss what scripture and the posts actually state.

I will go back to one question:

"You say God wants everyone saved but does not choose everyone. Then does God really have the ability to do what He wants?"

You say scripture says God wants to save all yet chooses some. Do you have a logical answer how God can want everyone saved yet chooses some? What is the reason not everyone is saved if God wants all saved?

Don't say scripture says this, or something like that. If the interpretation of scripture is illogical, I believe we have the wrong understanding. I want to hear a reasonable, logical answer.

Josheb · Dec 18, 2019

zoidar said:
I will go back to one question:

"You say God wants everyone saved but does not choose everyone. Then does God really have the ability to do what He wants?"

You say scripture says God wants to save all yet chooses some. Do you have a logical answer how God can want everyone saved yet chooses some? What is the reason not everyone is saved if God wants all saved?

Don't say scripture says this, or something like that. If the interpretation of scripture is illogical, I believe we have the wrong understanding. I want to hear a reasonable, logical answer.

Sure. He also wants justice done. Some He saves and some He serves justice. He satisfies both His wants,

zoidar said:
Don't say scripture says this, or something like that.

Why would I not do that?

zoidar said:
If the interpretation of scripture is illogical, I believe we have the wrong understanding. I want to hear a reasonable, logical answer.

Nice red herring. Nice appeal to personal opinion. Nice appeal to baseless accusation against the body of Christ.

I did not interpret anything.
I gave you scripture as written, plainly read in ints inherent contexts.
I provided a scriptural basis for a rational case.

You have done none of that.

So practice what you preach or deal with the fact posters will call you on the failure to do so. You've failed to present a cogent case of your own

The inquiry of the op has been answered and addressed an largely ignored.
The specific additional content of others' posts has been neglected or ignored.
There's at least one contradiction and several fallacious responses in what I've read.
My content has been misrepresented.
A lack of knowledge, understanding, and consideration has been displayed.
Content already posted and attended to has been unnecessarily repeated.

If my pointing out these things isn't wanted then don't do them.

The op's inquiry is a good one. The answer or solution is a fairly simple one. Sadly the discussion of the op and it's fairly straight-foward and simple solution is unnecessarily wanting.

God does what God wants to do and God has many wants, all of which He is able to satisfy without being dependent upon sinners in any way.

zoidar · Dec 18, 2019

Josheb said:
Sure. He also wants justice done. Some He saves and some He serves justice. He satisfies both His wants,

Why would I not do that?

Nice red herring. Nice appeal to personal opinion. Nice appeal to baseless accusation against the body of Christ.

I did not interpret anything.
I gave you scripture as written, plainly read in ints inherent contexts.
I provided a scriptural basis for a rational case.

You have done none of that.

So practice what you preach or deal with the fact posters will call you on the failure to do so. You've failed to present a cogent case of your own

The inquiry of the op has been answered and addressed an largely ignored.
The specific additional content of others' posts has been neglected or ignored.
There's at least one contradiction and several fallacious responses in what I've read.
My content has been misrepresented.
A lack of knowledge, understanding, and consideration has been displayed.
Content already posted and attended to has been unnecessarily repeated.

If my pointing out these things isn't wanted then don't do them.

The op's inquiry is a good one. The answer or solution is a fairly simple one. Sadly the discussion of the op and it's fairly straight-foward and simple solution is unnecessarily wanting.

God does what God wants to do and God has many wants, all of which He is able to satisfy without being dependent upon sinners in any way.

Friend, I'm not interested in debating scripture with you. Why, because I know what it leads to, back and forward and no one will change their opinion of scripture any way. Another time I might be interested to so so.

I'm approaching this question from philosophy and experience. Are you not interested to talk about it this way, no problem, I just won't discuss scripture (at this time, I see really no reason to do it).

Sure. He also wants justice done. Some He saves and some He serves justice. He satisfies both His wants,

Two very different wills? I have the power to save all, I want to save all, yet also desire not all saved, because of justice? Wouldn't it be justice if God chose to save all? I mean from your perspective God not saving a person has nothing to do with that person anyway, it's a choice made from God to not give mercy, right?

I also like to say that I do agree with you that God chooses His elect, yet we disagree on the reason He doesn't choose all people. My understanding is that the reason someone is damned is because of man himself, not God.

John 3:16 shows salvation is open for everyone. See, now I quoted some scripture anyway ^_^

Kermos · Dec 19, 2019

Dear @renniks and all Free willians,

The term "free will" occurs a single time in the New Testament.

The Apostle Paul wrote of "free will" metaphorically in "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will" (Philemon 1:14 NASB). The KJV renders "in effect" as "as it were".

There is a difference between "in effect" and "in fact", so let's examine the hallmarks of each phrase:

1) "in effect" expresses differing causes in which a similar effect occurs (cause and effect); in other words, one thing is different from another thing, yet the resultant effect is similar. The phrase "as it were" is adverbial with the meaning "as if it were really so", so "as it were" is similar to "in effect".

2) "in fact" expresses accuracy of fact; in other words, two things that are the same arrive at the same resultant effect.

An example of each:

1) EXAMPLE: In effect, the systems are identical. EXPLANATION: Two systems using different means arrive at similarly identical output despite using alternative avenue/means/cause to arrive at the output.

2) EXAMPLE: In fact, the systems are identical. EXPLANATION: Arriving at the same output using two exactly same systems or two systems the same in function with few details changed.

Behold, the Apostle Paul wrote of the output "your goodness".

Paul also wrote of two systems/causes which are (1) "compulsion" and (2) "your own free will".

Paul's writing indicates that "in effect" is applied to the two systems/causes, and this results in "your own free will" as the illusory system/cause.

THEREFORE, "FREE WILL" AS A CONCRETE SYSTEM/CAUSE DOES NOT OCCUR IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.

Kermos · Dec 19, 2019

renniks said:
I have no idea what you are talking about. I never disavolled being a disciple, or being a friend of Jesus. Are you just making stuff up?

Let's examine the facts in numberical order (not priority order):

1) renniks, you wrote, in effect, that the words of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16 do not apply to you when you wrote "He said that to his disciples, not us" in your post #173.

Now, here is the passage immediately prior to John 15:16 in which Lord Jesus talks of us disciples of His being His friends:

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you" (John 15:13-15).

If you deny that the multiple occurrances of "you" in John 15:16 apply to you, then you deny that the multiple occurrances of "you" in John 15:13-15 apply to you, renniks.

2) renniks, you quite literally excluded yourself with "not us" from being one of His disciples when you wrote "He said that to his disciples, not us"; in other words, you set yourself in the population of people that is not His disciples.

In that, you disavow being a disciple of Jesus.

3) renniks, when you wrote "He said that to his disciples, not us" in response to me posting John 15:16, you excluded yourself from the indwelling Holy Spirit which Lord Jesus promised with your "not us" for you wrote of yourself as a part of the "us".

We need to consider that which Lord Jesus said in John 14:16-17 containing just one of many times He promised the indwelling Holy Spirit during the same the dinner in which Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Our glorious King Jesus said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; [that is] the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, [but] you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you" (John 14:16-17).

Notice all the occurrances of "you" in the passage, renniks.

There were about 120 people who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit 50 days after the Lord Jesus' ascension - they were in a room during Pentecost from which they burst forth speaking of the mighty deeds of God as recorded in Acts 1:13-15 and Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 2:11.

There's more, renniks, for all the Gentiles at Cornelius' place received the indwelling Holy Spirit, see Acts 10:1-7 and Acts 10:44.

Behold, Lord Jesus said "you" in John 14:26-27 that the Holy Spirit "will be in you" AND the Gentiles received the Holy Spirirt as recorded in Act 10 - and there were quite a few "you"s in at Cornelius' place.

That's a big implication for the "you"s in John 15:16 which are related to the "you"s in John 14:26-27 such that the "you"s apply to all believers in all time.

4) renniks, as a vitally important point, let us also consider that Lord Jesus prayed at the dinner that night "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), so the Apostle John recorded the words of Jesus in John 15:13-15 and John 15:16 and John 14:16-17.

Lord Jesus prayed for us of the faith who believe through their word. Whose word? One is John the Apostle.

Since John recorded the words in John 15:13-15 and John 15:16 and John 14:16-17, then these word declare Who Jesus is and what Jesus does and Jesus promises.

Let us recount some points on why this matters:

We have "their word" in the recording by John the Apostle.

We have the Word of God speaking - that is Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28).

We have the Apostle John who wrote of the entire book of John "these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:31).

Hear that the "you"s in John 15:13-15 and John 15:16 and John 14:16-17 are for all us believers in all time. This is Love!!!

This God does the choosing in man's salvation post in this thread contains highly relevant Biblical quotations.

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

Kermos · Dec 19, 2019

renniks said:
Our choices don't make us worthy, so no. God gets all the glory. We don't claim to save ourselves. That it's just you twisting arminians theology.

Armenians illegally/lawlessly attempt to strike out the Word of God.

Your claimed choice of Jesus is the pivot point for salvation according to Armenian theology. Your decision. Your free will. None of these are supported by scripture.

Your claimed choice toward God is a work, and that is contrary to scripture (Ephesians 2:8-10, John 6:29).

Your claimed choice toward God is prideful and arrogant.

Your claimed choice toward God is your attempt at stealing from God's glory.

Your claimed choice toward God denies the very Word of God.

You say that you choose/chose Jesus which directly contradicts the applicable words of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Free willians attempt to strike out and insert words among the Word of God.

I believe on the Lord Jesus. My belief/faith is according to His love, compassion, power, mercy, grace. This faith in me, this work of God (John 6:29) is for God's glory!

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight" (Proverbs 3:5-6).

THERE IS NO LEVEL THAT A PERSON CAN CHOOSE LORD JESUS BECAUSE HE SAID "YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU" (JOHN 15:16) - JESUS, BEING GOD, DID NOT PROVIDE ANY EXCEPTION FOR CHOOSING TOWARD JESUS. LORD JESUS SPEAKS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL TIME BECAUSE HE ALSO SAID "I DO NOT ASK ON BEHALF OF THESE ALONE, BUT FOR THOSE ALSO WHO BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD" (JOHN 17:20)! ALL THESE WORDS OF JESUS ARE AT THE SAME SUPPER! ALL GLORY IS GOD'S! WITH MAN, SALVATION IS IMPOSSIBLE (MATTHEW 19:25-26)! ALL GLORY IN THE SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S (JOHN 15:5, ISAIAH 42:8)!

Josheb · Dec 19, 2019

zoidar said:
Friend, I'm not interested in debating scripture with you...

Red herring.

This is a dsicussion board. The very overtly-stated purpose here is to discuss, not debate. So when you try to reframe the exchange as a "debate" instead of a discussion and then lay atop that your derisive prognostications that is not valid or veracious. It is fallacious. And I don't have to debate it to point it out and expect you to do the right scriptural and rational thing: repent.

The facts in evidence are God is not dependent on the creature He is saving when He saves that sinful creature from that creature's own sin. The facts in evidence show God has many wants, not just the singular want to save all. The facts in evidence show God can and does satisfy His wants as He so purposes.

There's no need to "debate" those facts and you are invited to discuss them.

zoidar said:
I'm approaching this question from philosophy and experience.

The evidence says otherwise.

Philosophically there's no problem with the case I have presented but you're not engaging it. Experientially, what I have posted can be observed and experienced every day in common ordinary human life. Scripture tells us our own anecdotal experience is unreliable. So does century of human theology, philosophy, psychology, etc. The heart is deceitful above all else. That means we cannot even rely upon our own anecdotal experience of our own salvation when and wherever those perceptions contradict scripture.

So there's always going to be a flaw in the "philosophical and experience" question about whether or not God always gets His way, especially as that pertains to salvation.

And you are invited not to impose the fallacious and derisive prognostications about "debate" onto the discussion.

zoidar said:
Are you not interested to talk about it this way, no problem, I just won't discuss scripture (at this time, I see really no reason to do it).

Again, I'm going to appeal to the facts in evidence. They speak for themselves. Any objective comparison of the posts easily a and readily shows I have talked about the topic philosophically and experientially and that sem evidence easily and readily shows you're not doing the same. This is a Christian discussion board in a Christian discussion forum and there is an explicit label stating the board is for Christians only. Christians use scripture. Furthermore the fact that the op inquires about salvation means it is in self-evident fact discussing scripture.

Yet you claim you see no reason to discuss scripture as you try to philosophically and exprientially discuss what is inextricably a scriptural condition.

And I don't have to "debate" anything to point that out to you and all the readers.

zoidar said:
Two very different wills?

One will; two different purposes with overlapping motives.

And you are invited to discuss that, not debate it.

zoidar said:
I have the power to save all, I want to save all, yet also desire not all saved, because of justice? Wouldn't it be justice if God chose to save all?

No! That questions evidences a remarkable lack of knowledge about God, scripture, philosophy, and human experience.

The just recompense for our individual and collective disobedience is destruction. It is an act of grace that any of us draw one more single breath and God has patiently let you and I live the rest of our lives. You experience the common grace extended to all humanity every day of your life and you've just gone on record stating you don't know or understand that reality. That God saves any sinful creature at all eternally is another act of grace. God is both just and gracious. God is just as He wants and God is gracious as He wants and He does so based on His purposes that are not in any way dependent upon the sinful creature.

And you are invited to discuss this without imposing derisive prognostications on the discussion.

zoidar said:
I mean from your perspective God not saving a person has nothing to do with that person anyway, it's a choice made from God to not give mercy, right?

Let's first get rid of the red herring of "my perspective." It is a position I have evidenced both scripturally and rationally and done so much more effectively and veraciously then what I've received, which is rife with logical fallacy and an absence of scripture and reliance upon philosophy and experiential report.

Then let's get rid of the idea justice is not giving mercy. That is a false dichotomy you have yet to evidence, let alone prove. Sin is death so the dead dying isn't particularly moral in any way, even if the dead falsely imagine it otherwise. That is a false dichotomy, and false dichotomies are always and everywhere fallacious and in no way evidence a philosophical and experiential questioning of the matter at hand. Fallacies avoid philosophical and experiential (and scriptural) discussion.

zoidar said:
I also like to say that I do agree with you that God chooses His elect...

Good. And I will note for your observance that when I have read something that bears integrity with God's word as written plainly read I have affirmed it. I have, will, and as a general practice affirm that which bears integrity with scripture, inquire about that which is either unclear or I do not adequately understand, and refute that which is obviously contrary to God's word rightly-rendered.

I have done that here in this discussion.

It is one of the foundations for how discussions in Christian forums should be conducted.

zoidar said:
....yet we disagree on the reason He doesn't choose all people.

I read you stating disagreement but I don't read 1) a cogent case for any alternative being presented and 2) any evidence of discussion of either what I have posted or the so far non-existent alternative case.

So the evidence shows we don't have anything; neither agreement nor disagreement because no parity has been provided, and the self-asserted intent has not been practiced.

zoidar said:
My understanding is that the reason someone is damned is because of man himself, not God.

We're not discussing why man is damned. We're discussing whether or not God is able to do what He wants in salvation. Not damnation. Do not conflate the two.

zoidar said:
John 3:16 shows salvation is open for everyone. See, now I quoted some scripture anyway

Yes, and in doing so hypocrisy was practiced (again). Everyone here already knows you'll probably appeal to scripture when it suits you and do so in eisegetic manner.

I hope for more from you.

The case I have presented shows God is able to get His will done because there are many diverse aspects to His will and He acts based upon His purposes and is not dependent upon the sinful creature in anyway to do what He wants to do, even in His desire to save.

And you are invited to discuss this position without imposing the derisive prognostications previously posted or in any other way misrepresenting the exchange.

The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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