Why Some Early Christians Did Not Keep Sunday because of Pagan or Sun Worship

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It's the misinterpretation that is the issue, not God's word. I am led by the Spirit, so I am not under the Law.
Not being "under the law" doesn't mean you are not to follow what God says is righteous, and avoid that which He states is unrighteous. What not being under the law means, is that you are no longer guilty, and that the work of Yeshua has freed you from the wages of sin. But "do not steal" or "do not lay with a man as you would a woman" still apply. We can't pick and choose what we want to follow and what we don't. The Torah (literally "instruction") is the compilation of actions that God determines to be right and holy, or wrong and unholy.

As far as the Sabbath is concerned... it points to the millennial Kingdom, which is what Hebrews 4 was talking about. And seeing the millennial Kingdom is not hear, yet, then there remains a Sabbath keeping for the people of God.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

Ovoo

Member
Dec 16, 2019
16
4
Mid lands
✟8,312.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Separated
Your link says this as if SDAs are claiming it.

"All Christians kept Saturday between the resurrection of Christ to the time of Constantine in the fourth-century (300s A.D).
  • After Constantine’s conversion to Christianity, he changed the Christian day of worship from Saturday to Sunday because it was more convenient and help convert pagan Romans (who already worshipped the sun god on Sunday).
    • He was also urged by Christian bishops who had a thirst for power and believed that it will make it easier to convert pagan Romans."
Adventists have never taught that "all Christians" kept Saturday until the 4th century or that no sunday observance of any kind existed before Constantine among Christians. Specifically we do not teach that the Christian church in all the world at that time had no errors taught until the 4th century because even Paul himself stated that error would come in "immediately after my departure" in Acts 20. Paul tells Timothy to remain at Ephesus and try to squash error that was even then arising. John writes in third John that Christians were even then forbidding other christians to listen to and obey the apostle.

See Samuel Bacchioccho's book "from Sabbath to Sunday" pg186 a 2nd century account of at least some Christians denegrading the Bible Sabbath and honoring Sunday as a day of worship.

See the Catholic Historian - Bokenkotter's book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" for the fact that pagan practices were incorporated into the Catholic church at the time of Constantine
Can someone please educate me. What is or are a pagan worship?
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Can someone please educate me. What is or are a pagan worship?
When one serves and is in submission to, a pagan god. As a Sabbath keeper I will say this... keeping Sunday which was named for the sun and was the day of sun worship, by Christians, is not pagan. It would be pagan if they did this trying to honor Ba'al or Tammuz or some other god tied to the sun. They don't, they do this in honor of the God of Scripture as they understand the day.

Christians keep Sunday as a Christian Sabbath because the tomb was found empty on a Sunday morning (Matthew 28:1). That fact, however, doesn't mean God moved the Sabbath. Keeping Sunday is simply us following in a tradition that began about 1850 years ago by Greek Christians who already had Sunday keeping in their culture. It is inherited, and while not pagan, also not the Sabbath.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Not being "under the law" doesn't mean you are not to follow what God says is righteous, and avoid that which He states is unrighteous. What not being under the law means, is that you are no longer guilty, and that the work of Yeshua has freed you from the wages of sin. But "do not steal" or "do not lay with a man as you would a woman" still apply. We can't pick and choose what we want to follow and what we don't. The Torah (literally "instruction") is the compilation of actions that God determines to be right and holy, or wrong and unholy.

As far as the Sabbath is concerned... it points to the millennial Kingdom, which is what Hebrews 4 was talking about. And seeing the millennial Kingdom is not hear, yet, then there remains a Sabbath keeping for the people of God.
You have every right to believe as you like. I disagree.
Lord Jesus said that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. Lord Jesus is my righteousness, so I'm safe in that regard. The Holy Spirit within me is now my "right" and "wrong". Lord Jesus was abused for breaking sabbath regulations. Religious people are self righteous and love rules and regulations. Then they can smugly accuse those who do not obey them. The Sabbath law has been superseded. What is "moral" about a particular day of the week? If an individual is being obedient to the leading of the Holy Spirit, he/she will not be sleeping around, thieving, lying or coveting. I'm led by the Spirit of God because I am a son of God. Obeying a set of rules is way not good enough. You can outwardly observe every commandment and inwardly be a murderer, thief or adulterer. The Sermon on the Mount is God's commentary on the Law. We can't even keep the law as it is written, let alone God's intent. Who loves the Lord with all of their being? Who love their neighbour as they must? The Law brings us undone. It leads us to Christ. Then it has done its job. I've been looking at the Sabbath debate for 48 years, on and off. I rejected the Sabbath concept when I first came across it 45 years ago. My conscience is still clear. Every day is the Lord's day.

You may stand before the Lord Jesus and tell Him how well you obeyed the Law, what you have done to please God. I will stand before my Lord and Redeemer, and glorify Him as to what He has done, how He has met all of God's righteous requirements on my behalf and how He kept me in His keeping power. The legalists need to be careful. Many Christians will claim to have prophesied and cast out demons in the name of the Lord. Many will be rejected. Self-righteousness is not good enough for God.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You have every right to believe as you like. I disagree.
Lord Jesus said that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees.
I have no desire for debate, I don't care what you believe as long as you follow your current convictions. I would suggest looking at the word righteous. The 1828 Webster's verses how it was slightly changed in the modern online verse. And also the Greek and Hebrew words that are translated as righteous. I think you might find a new insight to your righteousness exceeding that of the Pharisees. Remember if you do look it up... the Pharisees were adding to God's law with decrees of their own. That little point is a big deal when you get a better definition of righteous.

Be blessed.
Ken
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,351
10,606
Georgia
✟911,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Can someone please educate me. What is or are a pagan worship?

In Gal 4 Paul refers to this idea of newly converted pagan reverting back to some of their old practices and pagan days of worship.

Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

===================================

But as the RCC historian Thomas Bokenkotter points out - there was a point in the 4th century where some pagan practices under the Roman Empire were incorporated in a Christian-ized form into the Christian Church.

Bokenkotter writes on page 39 of his book "A Concise History of the Catholic Church"
"This alliiance with the state profoundly influenced every aspect of the church's thought and life. It carried many advantages, but it also entailed some serious drawbacks; ... Mass conversions where social conformity was the chief motivating factor; the widening gap between clergy and laity thanks to the official status conferred on them; persecution of dissenters as a menace to the unity of the state. The church would never be the same again - for better and for worse - and so Constantine's conversion is certainly one of the greatest turning points in the history of the Catholic church and of the world." Ibid - Pg 39

Ibid - Page 42
"the liturgy itself was considerably influenced by the Constantinian revolution. Millions of pagans suddenly entered the church and some of their customs inevitably crept into the liturgy; the use of the kiss as a sign of reverence for holy objects, the practice of genuflection, devotion to relics, use of candles, incense and other ceremonial features derived from the imperial court. Under this pagan influence Christians began to face the east while praying which made it necessary for the priest to lead prayers while his back was toward the congregation."

"the more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantinian era, with its features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became the rule rather than the exception, for infants could not be preached to. " (Bokenkotter. Pg 49)
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,351
10,606
Georgia
✟911,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The Sabbath law has been superseded. What is "moral" about a particular day of the week?

Those preferences and suggestions are of course up to each individual - but we are going to want to follow actual Bible doctrine on this thread, so if you have an actual text for that -- please state it.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,351
10,606
Georgia
✟911,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Not being "under the law" doesn't mean you are not to follow what God says is righteous, and avoid that which He states is unrighteous. What not being under the law means, is that you are no longer guilty, and that the work of Yeshua has freed you from the wages of sin. But "do not steal" or "do not lay with a man as you would a woman" still apply. We can't pick and choose what we want to follow and what we don't. The Torah (literally "instruction") is the compilation of actions that God determines to be right and holy, or wrong and unholy.

As far as the Sabbath is concerned... it points to the millennial Kingdom, which is what Hebrews 4 was talking about. And seeing the millennial Kingdom is not hear, yet, then there remains a Sabbath keeping for the people of God.

indeed as Paul points out in Romans 3 -- the context for the phrase "being under the law" is specifically "being under the condemnation of the law - and apart from faith"
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,351
10,606
Georgia
✟911,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You can outwardly observe every commandment and inwardly be a murderer, thief or adulterer.

So then - is that an argument for taking God's name in vain or idolatry or disrespecting parents or ....? James 2 "he who breaks one commandment, breaks them all". How is that statement above an argument for ignoring even one of the Ten?
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,351
10,606
Georgia
✟911,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yes I corrected my post to say that my quote of you is what you conclude the teaching of SDAs is on this topic on a given point.

you give this quote -

"The spirit of concession to paganism opened the way for a still further disregard of Heaven’s authority. Satan, working through unconsecrated leaders of the church, tampered with the fourth commandment also, and essayed to set aside the ancient Sabbath, the day which God had blessed and sanctified (Genesis 2:2, 3), and in its stead to exalt the festival observed by the heathen as “the venerable day of the sun.”
http://www.end-times-prophecy.org/GreatControversy.pdf

That book describes a gradual compromise over time with paganism and says nothing about all Christian remaining true to the Bible Sabbath until the 4th century.

Notice -- starting at page 49 - Ellen White states error was coming into the church as early as the writing of the book of 2 Thessalonians.

"Page 49 3. An Era of Spiritual Darkness The apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the great apostasy which would result in the establishment of the papal power. He declared that the day of Christ should not come, "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." And furthermore, the apostle warns his brethren that "the mystery of iniquity doth already work." 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4, 7. Even at that early date he saw, creeping into the church, errors that would prepare the way for the development of the papacy. Little by little, at first in stealth and silence, and then more openly as it increased in strength and gained control of the minds of men, "the mystery of iniquity" carried forward its deceptive and blasphemous work. Almost imperceptibly the customs of heathenism found their way into the Christian church. The spirit of compromise and conformity was restrained for a time by the fierce persecutions which the church endured under paganism."

So she describes error coming in very early and continuing until wide spread persecuting put the advance of inclusion of heathen customs on hold/on-pause ... until that persecution was lifted


Then we have this ..

"But as persecution ceased, and Christianity entered the courts and palaces of kings, she laid aside the humble simplicity of Christ and His apostles for the pomp and pride of pagan priests and rulers; and in place of the requirements of God, she substituted human theories and traditions. The nominal conversion of Constantine, Page 50 in the early part of the fourth century, caused great rejoicing; and the world, cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. GC 49-50

That singular point is also admitted by the RCC's own historians - such as Thomas Bokenkotter in his book.


GC 50
Now the work of corruption rapidly progressed. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ. This compromise between paganism and Christianity...

GC 52
The spirit of concession to paganism opened the way for a still further disregard of Heaven's authority. Satan, working through unconsecrated leaders of the church, tampered with the fourth commandment also, and essayed to set aside the ancient Sabbath, the day which God had blessed and sanctified (Genesis 2:2, 3), and in its stead to exalt the festival observed by the heathen as "the venerable day of the sun."

That is a singular event that took place in the 4th century and is not an event claimed to have taken place any sooner -- with Christian trying to incorporate "the venerable day of the sun" as we see in the 4th century.

"This change was not at first attempted openly." -- so it was gradual over time..

"In the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians. They were jealous for the honor of God, and, believing that His law is immutable, they zealously guarded the sacredness of its precepts. But with great subtlety Satan worked through his agents to bring about his object."

So we would expect to see in the first and second centuries , Christians keeping the Bible Sabbath. But at no point does that text claim that no error came in during the first or second centuries.

As Bacchiocchi pointed out -- you can find instances of the errors in the earlier days including some groups of Christians denegrading Sabbath and uplifting week-day-1. Not that they had no observance on Saturday but they tended in some extreme cases to make it a day of fasting and drudgery while making week-day-1 a day of joy and celebration.

Those quotes start with apostasy and error declared to have been starting in the first century - at the time of the writing of 2 Thess 2. And there is a lot of "gradually" and "slowly over time" references in that text about error increasing over time from the first century.

As Bacchiocchi pointed out -- you can find instances of the errors in the earlier days including some groups of Christians denegrading Sabbath and uplifting week-day-1. Not that they had no observance on Saturday but they tended in some extreme cases to make it a day of fasting and drudgery while making week-day-1 a day of joy and celebration.

I am not sure I understand. Ellen White clear states:

"In the first centuries the true Sabbath had been kept by all Christians. They were jealous for the honor of God, and, believing that His law is immutable, they zealously guarded the sacredness of its precepts." — The Great Controversy

Which as noted in the post above - means at the very least that for the first two centuries - Sabbath keeping - in the Bible Sabbath was still being observed in Christianity - even if as Bacchiocchi pointed out - there was some shifting in the middle of the 2nd century to Sabbath as a day of fasting and drudgery and week-day-1 as a day of feasting.

That would mean for at least two centuries we know that at least some Christians are having cooperate worship on Sunday. Again, this isn't to advocate Sunday keeping.

Do you mean "two centuries" as "the 3rd and 4th century" or middle of 2nd century? or ??

The text you are referencing for us says -- " Almost imperceptibly the customs of heathenism found their way into the Christian church. The spirit of compromise and conformity was restrained for a time by the fierce persecutions which the church endured under paganism."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,351
10,606
Georgia
✟911,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Except "every Sabbath" both Jews and gentiles met for Gospel preaching including believers.

"the seventh day is THE SABBATH of the LORD YHWH" Ex 20:10

.. in Acts 13 it is the gentiles - not the Jews asking for "more Gospel preaching" on "the NEXT Sabbath"

Up until when?

There has always been a group of Christians keeping the Bible Sabbath.

How are you so sure there weren't churches that kept Sunday during the early church (not saying it correct).

Well I don't have a video of every meeting that ever took place in all of time .. if that is what you mean.. but I do know this - when the world wide Christian church got into a dispute over worship practices - they sent their representatives to Jerusalem to have the Jerusalem council of Jewish Christian leaders determine the solution.

Deleting/breaking/editing one of the TEN would have been an idea well worth "honorable mention" at such a council.

Paul is "accused" in Acts 21 by fellow Christian Jews "Zealous for the LAW" of telling Jewish converts not to keep ceremonial laws any more - And Paul takes a number of steps to "prove" that was not true. Now you and I would both agree that the ceremonial laws ended at the cross .. yet even in the case of those laws that were at an end Paul was not stepping to tell people not to keep them. In fact in Romans 14 Paul specifically defends folks wanting to keep those annual ceremonial holy days.

How much "higher" and more "noteworthy a complaint" it would have been had those Christian Jews in Jerusalem had the opportunity to claim that Paul was actually teaching people to break the TEN Commandments!!

In other words - the Christian Jewish critics of Paul in Acts 21 (and some of them even Judaizers) - do not agree with your suggestion about what Paul was doing - and they were opposing him to his face at every turn. I think this is compelling evidence that Paul had no ten-commandment-breaking-agenda. In fact in Eph 6:1-2 he specifically brings up the unit of TEN - when he could simply have said "do this for I as an Apostle say it is right".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,351
10,606
Georgia
✟911,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It's the misinterpretation that is the issue, not God's word. I am led by the Spirit, so I am not under the Law.

hint: we all say that when it comes to Paul's phrase in Romans 3 and Romans 6 about "under the Law" meaning under the condemnation of the LAW - apart from faith.

And in that context Paul says "sin not" in Romans 6 where we know that in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even as Paul says "what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

1 John 5:3 "This IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"

A Bible point that even the Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of faith, and D.L. Moody freely admit.
 
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
hint: we all say that when it comes to Paul's phrase in Romans 3 and Romans 6 about "under the Law" meaning under the condemnation of the LAW - apart from faith.

And in that context Paul says "sin not" in Romans 6 where we know that in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 even as Paul says "what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

1 John 5:3 "This IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments"

A Bible point that even the Baptist Confession of Faith, and the Westminster Confession of faith, and D.L. Moody freely admit.
God's law is now written on our hearts. The Law Giver is also the Law keeper. I don't care how much people seek to obey the law. the reality is that no one can. You can't even get agreement on what the law means. Follow the leading of the Spirit. There are three commandments that matter. Love God, Love your neighbour and the new commandment, love the brethren. It's the royal law of love, not slavish obedience to a set of rules. You can't reason with a stone. For five years I had no way of keeping a Saturday or Sunday sabbath. According to Law, I'm should be a dead man. I'm glad to agree that I'm worthy of death. I'm even more delighted to know that Lord Jesus died my death for me. Forget rules and regulations. Love God, love the brethren and you won't go wrong.

Many Christians want to put grace in a straightjacket. No, grace is not a licence to sin. Anyone who loves to sin is not born again. But I wonder just how saved some of the legalists are.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
indeed as Paul points out in Romans 3 -- the context for the phrase "being under the law" is specifically "being under the condemnation of the law - and apart from faith"
That is everything. We get too theological with this. Adam sinned, the result was DEATH. We all are born with the clock ticking because of Adam's sin... we will taste death. Yeshua came and did what was necessary to reverse that curse, and now, though we still die, death has lost it's sting because the work he did is good, once for all. But none of that means God's everlasting law is no longer applicable. If that were the case, then homosexuality and murder are not sin because they are part of the law. We can't have it both ways.... and we shouldn't. That is why Yeshua said that those that do the law and teach it will be called great in the Kingdom, and those that don't do it and teach against it, will be called the least in the Kingdom. At least, for their sake, they appear to be "in the Kingdom."

Blessings Bob.
Ken
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,563
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,985.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Religious garbage. Read Galatians.
Galatians... ok... please answer these questions. I will give you scripture then ask three questions about it.

Gal 4:8 But then, indeed, (1)when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.
Gal 4:9 But now after you have known God, (2)or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 (3)You observe days and months and seasons and years.

1. Since you will say this chapter is dealing with Jews, when did the Jews not know God? (be mindful of Romans 3:1-2 before you answer)

2. When did God not know the Jews?

3. What days and months and seasons and years are we talking about here?
 
Upvote 0

Christ is Lord

Well-Known Member
Aug 27, 2019
578
410
Top Secret
✟27,506.00
Country
Virgin Islands, British
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Which as noted in the post above - means at the very least that for the first two centuries - Sabbath keeping - in the Bible Sabbath was still being observed in Christianity - even if as Bacchiocchi pointed out - there was some shifting in the middle of the 2nd century to Sabbath as a day of fasting and drudgery and week-day-1 as a day of feasting.

Noticed the wording Mrs. White used "all" Christians kept Sabbath between at least the first two centuries (notice the phrase first centuries—i.e. at least between after the resurrection of Jesus and 200 A.D). How can she make a statement that all Christians kept Saturday? You have to be omniscient or God revealed to you via direct revelation of this reality. If that's the case Mrs. White is saying that the Christians that kept Sunday in the first centuries weren't Christian.
 
Upvote 0

Gary K

an old small town kid
Aug 23, 2002
4,212
915
Visit site
✟97,250.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The Holy Spirit within me is now my "right" and "wrong". Lord Jesus was abused for breaking sabbath regulations. Religious people are self righteous and love rules and regulations. Then they can smugly accuse those who do not obey them. The Sabbath law has been superseded. What is "moral" about a particular day of the week
Who said Jesus broke the Sabbath? Wasn't it the very same people who murdered Him? How can they be an authority on what it means to keep God's law when murder lived in their heart? It seems to me you're quoting a group of people who proved they hated God despite their profession of following Him. Weren't they the same group of men whom Jesus told that they were following their father the devil?

If Jesus actually broke God's law then He sinned and was an imperfect sacrifice for our sins. In other words, His life and death could not atone for our sins because He would have been a sinner just like we are.

How is a day moral? God answers that question in the 10 commandments. Those 10 commandments are God's moral law and He placed the Sabbath commandment inside His moral law. It's right there alongside not worshiping idols, not taking God's name in vain, not committing murder, not lying, etc.... Are you implying that you know better than God what is and what is not moral? In my eyes disregarding God's word is immoral for the first disregard of God's word on planet earth ended up in this world being ruled by immorality. Wasn't it just the third person to ever live here on this planet that committed murder, and that over ignoring God's specific command as to what was an acceptable sacrifice? Isn't murder about as immoral as an act can get?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

Aussie Pete

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Aug 14, 2019
9,081
8,285
Frankston
Visit site
✟727,630.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Who said Jesus broke the Sabbath? Wasn't it the very same people who murdered Him? How can they be an authority on what it means to keep God's law when murder lived in their heart? It seems to me you're quoting a group of people who proved they hated God despite their profession of following Him. Weren't they the same group of men whom Jesus told that they were following their father the devil?

If Jesus actually broke God's law then He sinned and was an imperfect sacrifice for our sins. In other words, His life and death could not atone for our sins because He would have been a sinner just like we are.

How is a day moral? God answers that question in the 10 commandments. Those 10 commandments are God's moral law and He placed the Sabbath commandment inside His moral law. It's right there alongside not worshiping idols, not taking God's name in vain, not committing murder, not lying, etc.... Are you implying that you know better than God what is and what is not moral? In my eyes disregarding God's word is immoral for the first disregard of God's word on planet earth ended up in this world being ruled by immorality. Wasn't it just the third person to ever live here on this planet that committed murder, and that over ignoring God's specific command as to what was an acceptable sacrifice? Isn't murder about as immoral as an act can get?
Whatever I say is right there in God's word. I did not say that Jesus broke the Sabbath. That was an accusation levelled against Him. Lord Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The sabbath was made for man. If you propose to live by the Law, good luck to you. I am not going to be drawn into this further. The only reason I comment on this issue is to help those who may be confused.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,351
10,606
Georgia
✟911,824.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
That is everything. We get too theological with this. Adam sinned, the result was DEATH. We all are born with the clock ticking because of Adam's sin... we will taste death. Yeshua came and did what was necessary to reverse that curse, and now, though we still die, death has lost it's sting because the work he did is good, once for all. But none of that means God's everlasting law is no longer applicable.

Romans 5 - in Adam all die - and as you point out this is not saying that we should all go out and start taking God's name in vain (or breaking any other of the TEN - for example).

But in Romans 3 there is a specific point being made that all are sinners and that the law condemns all sinners to the punishment for sin - Rom 6:23 the second death of Rev 20. The "problem" for which the Gospel is the "solution". All are sinners all need salvation -- all need the Savior - that is the point in Romans 3.

If that were the case, then homosexuality and murder are not sin because they are part of the
law.

True. The Law written on the heart under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-33 includes the TEN. But those same TEN are also the law that defines what sin is as Romans 3:19-20 states and so they condemn mankind and point us to our need of salvation.

1. The purpose of the LAW for the lost is to condemn. to make the lost aware that they "have a problem" for which the Gospel is the only "solution".

2.The purpose of the LAW for the saint is to be written on the heart , to direct the life to walk in harmony with our Creator, God, and Savior and not in rebellion against Him.

You will find that a lot of Christians claim to see that POV of the LAW in point number 1 very clearly, But how many claim to see the POV of the LAW in the second case?

. That is why Yeshua said that those that do the law and teach it will be called great in the Kingdom, and those that don't do it and teach against it, will be called the least in the Kingdom. At least, for their sake, they appear to be "in the Kingdom."

Amen!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ken Rank
Upvote 0