Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

sovereigngrace

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need a quote?
for (1) it's "The Church has never REPLACED Israel, it always WAS, and Remains Israel..." see post #91 of this thread...
for (2) it's "I want [...] modern-day geopolitical nation to be left out of the narrative." see post #237 of this thread.
Replacement theology is more harmful than you think it is, Sovereign. The moment they say the church is Israel, they replace it. That's the replacement.

I don't advocate apartheid, as you suggest. Israel is still Israel, that's what Bible teaches. Simply.
I don't have any "depreciatory slur", as you may suggest. I neither misrepresented anything nor created a strawman.
When Israel wasn't faithful... it remained true Israel though.

Thomas

Can you respond to one poster at a time? It is very confusing the way you respond to several at the one time.

You are not getting what I am saying: race means nothing today! Of course natural Jews are natural Jews, natural Israel is natural Israel, natural Gentiles are natural Gentiles. But the NT makes abundantly: under the NT race carries no favor. Paul asserts in Romans 2:11-12: “For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law (Gentiles) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (Jews) shall be judged by the law.” This same truth is repeated in Galatians 2:6, Ephesians 6:9, Colossians 3:25, James 2:9 and 1 Peter 1:17.

This is the constant theme that threads through New Testament Scripture. It is clear and unambiguous. It demolishes the bias Dispensationalists reasoning. As we moved from the old covenant to the new covenant the whole ethnic bias towards Israel was removed, so was the unique theocratic system of government that existed within that land (Matthew 21:42-43, Luke 13:5-9, 28-29, 34-35). No longer would race be a special privilege in regard to election. All men would now approach God equally on the grounds of the blood of Jesus. Christ widened out the Gospel opportunity to all nations. He removed the natural ethnic preference of the Gospel that strongly inclined towards natural Israelites and drew countless millions of Gentiles into that special chosen company.

Who cares whether someone is a Jew a Gentile! The only thing that matters is: are they born again?

I gave you clear Scripture. You failed to address them. Why? They forbid your narrative.

I Corinthians 7:17 declares, “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing"

Galatians 5:2 declares, “if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Galatians 5:5 declares, "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

Galatians 6:15 reinforces that, saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”
Colossians 3:11 declares, “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Romans 2:25 tells us: “if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.”
 
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mkgal1

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biblical Israel is Jewish Israel. You call them secular. I call them Jewish
You're misunderstanding me if that's what you believe I've meant. I'm calling the modern-day geopolitical Israel secular.

OTOH - biblical Israel was a theocracy that - at the center of their lives and worship - was the Temple and all the temple rituals. That is long past - since it's destruction in 70 AD. The "last days" of that group has been fulfilled - just as was prophesied would occur.
 
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thomas_t

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You are not getting what I am saying: race means nothing today[...]
No longer would race be a special privilege in regard to election.
since you've said before there was only one chosen people...
let's have a look at Romans 11:28. We read of election "for the sake of the forefathers". Christians can't be meant there. Their election is different. I wouldn't limit Jesus to issueing only one election.
But the NT makes abundantly: under the NT race carries no favor.[...]
the whole ethnic bias towards Israel
My point was, Christians persecuted by race, they persecuted them. This is my view of church history so far. They've shown ethnic bias against them. Especially in Germany. Jews were their No.1 victim.
If Christians victimized Jews, there needs to be something in return. Jews can't just suffer from these Christians and expect to suffer eternal hell afterwards. That's not just.

Jesus is just.
I gave you clear Scripture. You failed to address them. Why? They forbid your narrative.
They are all correct. At the same time I'm pointing to other scripture, which is allowed.
So if circumcision is nothing as you say... why did Christians persecute these Jews then?
When people burn a synagogue, for instance, and the Jews want to sue them afterwards, the attackers can't just say "circumcision means nothing". They are going to be held accountable for their deeds.
But throughout history, these criminals were not. When Jesus will save all Israel now... it would be wonderful and fair.

Thomas
 
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thomas_t

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You're misunderstanding me if that's what you believe I've meant. I'm calling the modern-day geopolitical Israel secular.
you seem to be suggesting that modern day Israel is too secular to be meant by the Bible.
But they are the continuation of Jewish Israel. So even if you call them secular, I would call them Jewish.

First you strip them from their identity wanting them off the Biblical promises, and then you want to have the topic of modern day Israel finished, as you seem to be suggesting here?
I want [...] for a modern-day geopolitical nation to be left out of the narrative.
So after having counted them out, you want the discussion to be over at this point?
I can't understand you.
 
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sovereigngrace

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since you've said before there was only one chosen people...
let's have a look at Romans 11:28. We read of election "for the sake of the forefathers". Christians can't be meant there. Their election is different. I wouldn't limit Jesus to issueing only one election.

My point was, Christians persecuted by race, they persecuted them. This is my view of church history so far. They've shown ethnic bias against them. Especially in Germany. Jews were their No.1 victim.
If Christians victimized Jews, there needs to be something in return. Jews can't just suffer from these Christians and expect to suffer eternal hell afterwards. That's not just.

Jesus is just.
They are all correct. At the same time I'm pointing to other scripture, which is allowed.
So if circumcision is nothing as you say... why did Christians persecute these Jews then?
When people burn a synagogue, for instance, and the Jews want to sue them afterwards, the attackers can't just say "circumcision means nothing". They are going to be held accountable for their deeds.
But throughout history, these criminals were not. When Jesus will save all Israel now... it would be wonderful and fair.

Thomas

Thomas,

Thanks for your reply!

I share your opposition to any form of antisemitism. It is evil and wrong. But those who reject Christ are not of God but off the devil, like any other unbeliever. They do not have a free pass to heaven. No one ever had that or will.

Let us see what the Saviour said on this important matter. Jesus said in John 5:23b-24, “He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

This couldn’t be clearer. Those Jews and Gentiles that don’t accept Christ don’t accept the Father. Christ-rejecting Jews and Gentiles are under condemnation and are therefore of their father the devil.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Jews who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham, Gentiles who accept Christ as Saviour and Lord are true children of Abraham. Jews who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham, Gentiles who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham.

Jesus said in Luke 9:48, “whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me.”

The overwhelming amount of Jews for 2,000 years have rejected Christ, Christ will therefore reject them. Notwithstanding, there has always been a redeemed remnant that have accepted God's only provision for sin and uncleanness. Those that accepts Christ are accepted of the Father. Those that deny Him are denied by the Father.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

How can they be of God's if they reject God's only means of reconciliation between man and God? You are presenting another gospel. The unsaved Jew does not receive Christ; therefore the Father does not receive him. He is not God's, he is the devil's. God's favour and blessing is upon those who accept His Son. His judgment is upon those who reject Him.

John the Baptist said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

If the Jew loves Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!!
 
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sovereigngrace

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Sadly, many do miss this scripture. Why? Because they have been confused by false teachings.
All Israel shall be saved?
Romans 11:26-27, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The quotation Paul uses is from Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob

When the Bible says that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved in Romans 11:26-27, it refers to only a remnant of the Jewish people and all true Christians, now the Israel of God.

The message to the individual is that he or she must “turn from transgression” to the Lord. There will be a remnant that will turn to him. All of them will be saved. He speaks of the saved remnant as the nation Israel.

Are the Jews still God's people? Yes, but only those who are both ethnic and spiritual Jews. Romans 2:29
Saved Gentiles have also been grafted into the tree and are now co-heirs of the promises of God to Israel. Galatians 3:26-29 The apostle Paul was a remnant Jew...

Romans 11:1, I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul was an ethnic Israelite. Paul says that it's all by God's grace... Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

In other words, by grace through faith, plus or minus nothing, in the Lord Jesus Christ. Only through faith in Jesus can anyone be a child of God. Confirmed by:
Galatians 3:26-29, For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Clearly, Galatians 3:26-29 states that unsaved Jews cannot be Abraham's spiritual seed, nor are they heirs of the promises of God made to Israel in the Bible. The Bible is very plain on this subject that only born-again Christian believers of any ethnicity are heirs of the promises of God. True, righteous Christians from every race, nation and language are God's people; the Israelites of God.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. So we can divide all humanity into one or other of these two groups:
1/ Every godless unbeliever including the non-Christian Jews and
2/ All Christian believers, Jews and Gentiles.; people from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10

God never blesses wicked evildoers. When the Jews rejected Jesus, God gave them into the hands of their enemies, as in 70 AD. Then, for continuing in their disbelief; the many pogroms and the Holocaust. Now they face the third swing of the Sword, Ezekiel 21:1-16

Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23, I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people which he foreknew…..You may say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and we Christians stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, blessing, so keep your faith: otherwise you also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they change their ways, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.

This Scripture plainly teaches that ONLY Jews who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ will be grafted back into the tree as God's people. Jeremiah 12:14-16 proves this.

God cut off Judah in 586 BC for their continuous and stiffnecked rebellion against His Word, even killing the prophets.

God still loves His people, His true people who obey Him, and any Jew can be grafted back into the tree, but all Christ-rejecting Jews are NOT GOD'S PEOPLE. The Parable of the Vineyard shows how the apostate, ethnic Jewish people have lost their status. Matthew 21:33-46, Luke 19:27


Less than .025% of the Jews living in Israel today profess to be a Christian. Only a fool thinks that God loves the apostate, atheistic, gay pride, Christ rejecting Jews. These types are NOT God's people.
So only the saved Jews are part of God's people, but most are saved Gentiles. Only believers in Jesus Christ can claim to be heirs of the promises of God originally given to Israel, but now applicable to every faithful Christian.

Galatians 3:29 proclaims this truth...And if you be Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Romans 8:16-17

Well put!
 
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sovereigngrace

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true Israel is more. The country + the other Jews.you failed to show that all the children of God are "Israel". Israel is Israel.

yes. However you seem to be equating the remnant with all Israel. Which is false.
* All Israel is an enemy to the Gospel (Romans 11:28). The remnant is not.
* All Israel is saved for being linked to the forefathers (Romans 11:28). The remnant, in contrast, is saved for believing Christ and accepting the gift of the cross.

Thomas
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Thomas

I appreciate your thoughts.

The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time. Here is proof we are true spiritual Israel:

Ephesians 2:11-19

Ephesians 2:11-19 declares, “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth [Gr. politeia or citizenship] of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby … Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens [Gr. sumpolites] with the saints, and of the household of God.”

This Epistle reveals how there has been a major alteration wrought in their spiritual standing of these Gentiles in the New Testament age through Jesus Christ. What is more we see a complete redefining of terms and appellations. This passage shows how Gentiles have gone from being naturally considered “Gentiles” to being spiritually of “Israel.”

The word rendered “commonwealth” in the King James Version here is the Greek word politeia (Strong’s 4174) which means citizenship or community. This passage illustrates how Gentile Christians in this New Testament era have graciously entered into “the citizenship of Israel” through the work of Christ.

According to Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon a meaning of politeia is "the conditions and rights of the citizen, or citizenship.”

This passage speaks of God bringing natural Israelis together with natural Gentiles into the exact same standing and privileges. In fact, in this new covenant age they are classed as “one body” and “one new man.” How can this be? What are the grounds for this union? Is it speaking of a natural or spiritual reality? There can be no doubt by the clarity and straightforwardness of this narrative that Jews and Gentiles are joined together in this passage on the sole grounds of “the blood of Christ.” This is the only means of cleansing and freedom God knows or accepts.

They have been transformed from “being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision” (2:11) to “now in Christ Jesus” (2:13) being of “the citizenship of Israel.” This is indeed a remarkable change. The clear intimation here is that the naturally Gentile believers of Ephesus through salvation are no longer considered Gentiles. This would fit in with Paul’s teaching in Romans 2:26, 28-29 and Romans 9:30-33.

A Gentile is said in this text to be made a true Israelite. They are said to be “fellowcitizens” – a citizen of believing Israel. Obviously believing Gentiles do not become natural citizens of Israel, so this must mean spiritual citizens of Israel.

The word “fellowcitizens” (sumpolites) actually involves the joining of two Greek words sun denoting union and togetherness and polites meaning citizen. The joint word here is used to describe the unitary nature of the people of God of all time. It is thus correctly interpreted “fellowcitizens” in the King James Version confirming how the New Testament Gentile have been brought into “the citizenship of Israel” with the saints of the Old economy.

Romans 11:11-24

Paul gives us some interesting thoughts in Romans 11. In Romans 11:11-15 he teaches: “I say then, Have they (natural Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?”

The apostle continues in Romans 11:17-24: “And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them, partakest of the root and fatness [or oiliness] of the olive tree. Boast not against the branches (Israel). But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root [Jesus], but the root [Jesus] thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches [Israel] were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

Paul uses the image of “the olive tree” in Romans 11 to show that Gentiles have become part of true Israel. His olive tree analogy is deliberate. He takes this imagery from the prophets who likened Israel to an olive tree in Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10 and 14:6-7.

No one could surely dispute we are looking at an Israeli tree here. Paul carefully describes the Jews who have been cut off as “natural branches” and being of “their own olive tree.” This shows us that this is an Israeli tree that held Israeli citizens. If the “natural branches” represent natural Israelis, and faith in Christ is the criterion for partaking in “the olive tree,” we can only be looking at the faithful genetic seed of Abraham who embraced Christ. This is the elect remnant of Israel. It was this holy remnant that remained attached to the Israeli olive tree that the Gentiles who believed now join in this new covenant era. This fulfils various Old Testament predictions that through Abraham’s seed all the families of the earth would be blessed (Genesis 12:1-3, 17:3-8, 17:15-16, 18:18 and 22:16-18).

Dispensationalist John McArthur even acknowledges: “And so the new life which enables us Gentiles to produce fruit unto God is the covenant stock of Israel that we’ve been grafted into” (Is God finished with Israel? Part 2).

This olive tree, which currently consists of both believing Jews and Gentiles, is therefore the continuation of spiritual Israel, only operating now under the broader new covenant arrangement. Consequently, it contains the full number of new covenant believers regardless of race or natural DNA. This metaphor describes the incorporation of Gentile believers into a decidedly Hebraic tree. But this is no natural tree. We are clearly looking here at a spiritual tree, because partaking in its blessing and sustenance comes through the exercise of “faith.” After all, if it were simply natural there would be absolutely no reason to cut out natural Israelites simply on the grounds of their race. The reason for Christ-rejecting Israel’s banishment from the tree’s blessings was “unbelief.” The reason for Gentile acceptance was because “they” stood “by faith.”

If God had two distinct chosen peoples, then He would not have integrated the believing Gentiles into a believing Jewish tree. The phrase “wert graffed in” is taken from the lone Greek word egkentrizo meaning ‘to ingraft’. It comes up 6 times in the New Testament – all between Romans 11:17-24.

Galatians 6:15-16

Galatians 6:15-16 further reinforces the idea that we are spiritual Israel today, asserting: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

Q. 1 Who is Paul specifically speaking to?
Q. 2 What is he speaking of in this text?
Q. 3 Who is he speaking about?

A. 1 He is primarily speaking to Gentile believers in Galatia, although there would doubtless have been Jewish converts among that assembly of believers.
A. 2 The whole focus of this passage is the subject of circumcision, and how it has no bearing upon the issue of salvation.
A. 3. All those who are born again.

Whilst this epistle was inspired of the Holy Spirit for the edification and instruction of the Church of Jesus Christ generally, it was initially and principally written to the Galatian Gentile believers. The verses that actually precede Paul’s instruction on “the Israel of God” makes it clear that his counsel was primarily directed to those Galatian saints who were experiencing hostility from certain Jews for not being physically circumcised. Paul in turn was specifically addressing the issue of circumcision, warning the Galatian Gentile believers against the dangerous crusade of these misguided Judadizers who were attempting to put them under bondage by compelling them to be circumcised.

Paul says of such, in his introductory comments in Galatians 6:12-13, “As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh (speaking of the Jews), they constrain you (Galatian Gentile believers) to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised (namely the Jews) keep the law; but desire to have you (Gentiles) circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.”

Paul is constantly telling us in his writings in lucid terms that there is no ‘them and us’ within the body of Christ. He emphasizes how one’s Jewishness or Gentileness means absolutely nothing today “in Christ Jesus.” He actually rebukes those that try to establish distinct groupings within the body of Christ (namely Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians). Paul repeatedly instructs the New Testament believer that there should be no racial, cultural or economic division within the body. 1 Corinthians 12:25 says: “That there should be no schism in the body.”

Paul explains in verse 15 that one’s natural Jewish ancestry or physical appearance has absolutely nothing to do with one’s standing before God, rather it is one’s spiritual birthright only.

Moreover, the Greek word used in this passage for “rule” is the word kanoni, which means a rule or canon, i.e. a standard of faith and practice; by implication, a boundary, i.e. a sphere of activity. There is hence an important proviso cited here for one being of the spiritual “Israel of God,” and therefore enjoying the “peace” and “mercy” of the Lord; that is: irrespective of colour, creed, gender, birth-date (pre or post Calvary) or status that one is born again of the Spirit.

There is not one canon of faith for Jewish Christians and another canon of faith for Gentile Christians. Collectively they come under Paul’s definition of the “many” (Galatians 6:16). All are now one in Christ. All are governed by the same heavenly rules. This is the whole force of Paul’s teaching here and repeatedly throughout the New Testament. That is why he preferences the debated expression with the clear words: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”
 
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mkgal1

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We read of election "for the sake of the forefathers". Christians can't be meant there. Their election is different. I wouldn't limit Jesus to issueing only one election.
The Israel assembly was NEVER about race (I thought I'd pointed that out a few times). In the U.S. we use the term "forefathers" to speak of those that formed our original government.....it doesn't always mean DNA. It's typically about group identity. However.....it is true that Jesus descended from the twelve tribes....but take a look at that lineage again. It's not "limiting" Jesus to recognize that there is ONE continual "story" from Genesis to Revelation about God restoring and redeeming humanity:

12_sons_of_jacob-12_tribes_of_israel_chart.jpg


Right from the beginning - Leah and Rachel's servants are woven into the fabric of the Israelites.


Genesis 17:12 ~ Throughout your generations, every male among you at eight days old is to be circumcised. This includes a slave born in your house and one purchased with money from any foreigner. The one who is not your offspring

From Isaiah 56 ~

I will give them an everlasting name

that will not be cut off.

And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD

to minister to Him,

to love the name of the LORD,

and to be His servants—

all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it

and who hold fast to My covenant


I will bring them to My holy mountain

and make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices

will be accepted on My altar,

for My house will be called a house of prayer

for all the nations.”


Thus declares the Lord GOD,

who gathers the dispersed of Israel:

I will gather to them still others

besides those already gathered.”

Claninja said:
Salmon (tribe of Judah) and Rahab(Canaanite) had Boaz

Boaz (mixed half tribe of Judah, half Canaanite) and Ruth (Moabite) had Obed

Obed (half Moabite, quarter Canaanite, and quarter Jewish ) fathered Jesse

and Jesse fathered david.

Right here, we can see that while Obed could trace his lineage through Judah, he was barely of the DNA of Israel.


Matthew 1:5 Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth,

Both Rahab and Ruth, who were not born Israelites, had faith and were thus included into Israel and the promises of God, as God used their lineage to bring forth the Messiah.

Rahab is even listed with the heroes of faith, who did not receive what was promised, because God, through Christ, had planned something better for her (them and us).
 
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mkgal1

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you seem to be suggesting that modern day Israel is too secular to be meant by the Bible.
But they are the continuation of Jewish Israel. So even if you call them secular, I would call them Jewish.
You are adding the modifier "too", not me. It's not about how secular they are or not (are there even degrees of secularism?) - it's the timing and what changed in 70 AD.

Modern-day Judaism is a completely separate religion from the Judaism of the Bible that ended in 70 AD - so it isn't accurate to say anyone is belonging to that form of Judaism today.

I was referring to the geopolitical nation on the map, though - not the Jewish people.

Allow me to attempt to make a comparison. In our area we have a group of people that call themselves German Baptists. Their identity is externally set apart by their clothing. While their beliefs and practices are typically handed down through family - there are also people that come in to their group through marriage (and adoption) much like the assembly of Israelites in the biblical days. To us - we would recognize them by their appearance (but only God knows their hearts) I see their external distinction based on dress as similar to the ancient Israelites distinction through their circumcision as an outward sign of their devotion:

upload_2019-12-12_9-53-52.jpeg
5cf957bec3cb5.image.jpg
 
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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33
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First you strip them from their identity wanting them off the Biblical promises, and then you want to have the topic of modern day Israel finished, as you seem to be suggesting here?
It's in Christ that the promises of Abraham were fulfilled. The problem I've had all throughout this thread is how what God has completed is being minimized - even stolen away from His glory.

Quoting from linked article:
The Abrahamic Covenant is an amazing relationship between God and Abraham that promised him three things: Land, Seed, and Blessing.


Genesis 12:1-3. Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Let’s look at each of the three elements of the Abrahamic Covenant again, this time connecting it to Christ.


Land


Even Abraham realized that the dwelling that he longed for was not just a physical reality but a spiritual one.


Hebrews 11:10. Abraham was confidently looking forward to a city with eternal foundations, a city designed and built by God.(NLT)


Abraham always lived in tents because he knew that the eternal city would be built by God. His forever home was not this earth. It is what we know now is the New Earth, with a New Jerusalem built by God, where He will dwell with us forever.

Jesus makes all of this possible. But beyond this, for this life now, Jesus is our dwelling place. He is our promised land. We are rooted and built up in him (Col. 2:7). Jesus is our promised possession. Our inheritance. And we are his. He dwells in our hearts (Eph. 3:17). But beyond that we live forever IN Jesus and He IN us. Christmas is about celebrating our true inheritance- Christ himself.


Seed


Jesus is the ultimate seed of promise. Like Isaac, whose birth was miraculous, Jesus miraculously was born to fulfill the covenant made with Abraham and to fulfill every promise God ever made to mankind.


Galatians 3:16. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.


Paul saw the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promises in Christ. He is the Seed who would make every promise come true.


Blessing


God told Abraham that through him every nation on earth would be blessed. By now you know exactly where this is going- Jesus is that blessing! Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David, Solomon- these offspring do not bless me. At least not eternally.

Jesus is the blessing ~ How Jesus Fulfills the Abrahamic Covenant
 
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mkgal1

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thomas t said:
My point was, Christians persecuted by race, they persecuted them. This is my view of church history so far. They've shown ethnic bias against them. Especially in Germany. Jews were their No.1 victim.
If Christians victimized Jews, there needs to be something in return. Jews can't just suffer from these Christians and expect to suffer eternal hell afterwards. That's not just.

Jesus is just.
NO ONE should be persecuted or prejudiced against by their race - and that includes Palestinians as well. Salim Munayer is a Palestinian Christian that has experienced such persecution. In this video, Dr Munayer explains the biblical narrative in context and how Jesus didn't fit the expectation of a king that ruled politically as other kings had:


About the modern-day conflict ----->
 
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thomas_t

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I don't have enough time to read long answers, especially when there are still others who respnd to my posts. May I ask you, could you please narrow down your answers to some key points next time? IN my opinion, since your posts are really long this time, this is hurling elephants.
[Antisemitism] is evil and wrong.
yes, we agree.
Jews who reject Christ as Saviour and Lord are not true children of Abraham,
even the Pharisees are called "children of Abraham" John 8:37. They were Christ's enemies.
The overwhelming amount of Jews for 2,000 years have rejected Christ, Christ will therefore reject them.
they used to be discriminated against by true Christians, in my opinion. After the Bible was written. Jesus will take this into consideration, in my opinion.... I wouldn't write off the Jew.
You are presenting another gospel.
no.
we are true spiritual Israel
that's the replacement in replacement theology. For it was Israel that used to be Israel during the time of the Old Testament.
there is only one elect people.
no, Christians aren't elect for the sake of the forefathers. Romans 11:28.
Israel is. Big difference.
one man, not “twain,”
one new man made out of two, you even cite it
for to make in himself of twain one new man,
the two are Christians (1) + Israel (2).
Gentile Christians in this New Testament era have graciously entered into “the citizenship of Israel”
Here we disagree. Ephesians 2:19 doesn't mention Israel. There is some citizenship for Gentiles indeed. For me, it's the citizenship of the Kingdom. The Kingdom is not the same as Israel, in my opinion.
Jews and Gentiles are joined together
you even admit yourself, indirectly, that the New Testament still knows two different concepts: Jews (1) and Gentiles (2). Even if they're joined together... Jews don't become Gentiles and the other way round.
In this sense, Israel and the church remain two seperate entities. Joined... but still being themselves.
If God had two distinct chosen peoples, then He would not have integrated the believing Gentiles into a believing Jewish tree.
why not. God can do everything. Please note: Jesus-believing tree is not the same as Israel.
Paul is constantly telling us in his writings in lucid terms that there is no ‘them and us’ within the body of Christ.
... within the body od Christ! Important detail.
Paul explains in verse 15 that one’s natural Jewish ancestry or physical appearance has absolutely nothing to do with one’s standing before God, rather it is one’s spiritual birthright only.
Paul is speaking on the individual level. The group level is different.
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”
"in Christ". Again, an important detail. Romans 11:28 doesn't speak of an entity "in Christ".

So next time please... don't write pages. I do have trouble with having to little time to read everything.
 
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thomas_t

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It's in Christ that the promises of Abraham were fulfilled.
yeah, they will be saved through Christ in Romans 11:27. He will take their sins away (future tense). Still, it's the enemies Paul is talking about.
and that includes Palestinians as well.
Good point.
even stolen away from His glory.

[...]
amazing relationship between God and Abraham that promised him three things: Land, Seed, and Blessing.
I hope that replacement theology-ists won't steal away their (physical) land and promises.:tonguewink:
Modern-day Judaism is a completely separate religion from the Judaism of the Bible
you have zero Bible proof for that assertion. It's an assumption of yours. I don't share it.
I was referring to the geopolitical nation on the map, though - not the Jewish people.
they belong together. Jews upheld Jewish traditions. It's them.
Your German Baptists certainly wouldn't be mocked or even set aside by the Baptists of the local Baptist church two miles away from where I'm now.
upload_2019-12-12_22-4-56.jpeg
 
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mkgal1

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The Kingdom is not the same as Israel, in my opinion.
This was said directly to the ancient Israelites:

All along this is what God proclaimed:

Exodus 19:6 ~ "And you will be my kingdom of priests, my holy nation.’ This is the message you must give to the people of Israel.”

......but then, look what Peter said (recorded in the New Testament):

1 Peter 1:1 ~ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

1 Peter 2:5
you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
 
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mkgal1

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yeah, they will be saved through Christ in Romans 11:27. He will take their sins away (future tense). Still, it's the enemies Paul is talking about.
Do you recall what John the Baptizer announced on the day Jesus was baptized and annointed? John's parents were Zechariah and Elizabeth (which I am certain you know). Are you suggesting that John (since he's undoubtedly included in the "they" you're mentioning here - as he's without question - linked to the ancient Israelites) is still waiting for Jesus to take his sins away? Didn't John announce that Jesus is "the Lamb that takes away the sin OF THE WORLD"? Christ's sacrifice is ONE TIME. For ALL.

John 1:29 ~ The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 7:27 ~ Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people; He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.
 
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mkgal1

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I hope that replacement theology-ists won't steal away their (physical) land and promises.:tonguewink:
The world "belongs" to God. Claims made to land with the idea that "God promised" are fallacies of appealing to authority.
 
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mkgal1

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mkgal said:
Modern-day Judaism is a completely separate religion from the Judaism of the Bible
thomas t said:
you have zero Bible proof for that assertion. It's an assumption of yours. I don't share it.
No, it's not an assumption. Modern Jews do not follow (*cannot* follow) any of the Temple Laws laid out in the Torah. Their lives are not centered around Temple rituals and Temple worship and there are no longer Letivical High Priests, but instead, Jesus is the High Priest. Rabbinic Judaism uses the Mishna and Talmud as their sacred text (as far as I understand, the Old Testament is not typically read or used by modern Jews in their worship). Rabbinic Judaism didn't even begin until the 6th century (from what I've read).​
 
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TreWalker

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No, it's not an assumption. Modern Jews do not follow (*cannot* follow) any of the Temple Laws laid out in the Torah. Their lives are not centered around Temple rituals and Temple worship and there are no longer Letivical High Priests, but instead, Jesus is the High Priest. Rabbinic Judaism uses the Mishna and Talmud as their sacred text (as far as I understand, the Old Testament is not typically read or used by modern Jews in their worship). Rabbinic Judaism didn't even begin until the 6th century (from what I've read).​
Then please read more. From this post it appears that you have no understanding of synagogue worship. Nor the history of Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism did not start with the Mazoretic era of the middle ages. And the whole of synagogue worship is based on temple worship, and originated in the exile in Babylon. Rabbinic Judaism came out of the Pharisees exiled by Rome who held a council in the city of Yavneh in the early 2nd century.
 
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TreWalker

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as far as I understand, the Old Testament is not typically read or used by modern Jews in their worship
Most ALL of the worship includes reciting the Torah, or what you understand as the old testament. Our worship includes both the Torah and the Prophets and in Messianic synagogues includes a reading from the new covenant writings.

You would be astounded to realize that the one you know as Jesus, our Messiah, is revealed throughout the Torah and the Prophets, and even the writings of our sages. You can't read them without running right into him. Most every Jew I know sees Messiah in the texts, and waits for his coming anxiously with hope. The only shame is some don't realize it is Yeshua. And it G-ds will that we help them see the image clearly. This will not happen when someone lays more blindfolds over their eyes instead of lifting the veil.
 
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