Is it possible to be born again more than one time?

redleghunter said:

So we obey and then we receive the righteousness of God.

2 Corinthians 5: NASB

21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.​

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The subjunctive mood is used there "might become" for a reason. Were it not required that we obey the gospel, then there is no condition in play. Nobody has to do anything because he's done it all and everyone on earth becomes the righteousness of God in Christ having just existed.

You must already agree that sitting around and doing nothing was never anything anyone taught.

One has to believe and obey the gospel so that they move from "might" becoming to becoming.

redleghunter said:

You can demonstrate in the real world how one loses eternal life?

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Eternal Life is a person named Jesus Christ; For Christ alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). When Jesus spoke of life like in the Parable of the Prodigal Son, he was referring to our physical life in relation to having spiritual life. The parallel may not be exact in the sense that eternal life is, but it helps to illustrate the basic truths that Christ wants to get across to us. Christ possessing eternal life is not a moral dilemma. It is good news. But when we talk about Calvinistic Unconditional Election, we are moving into uncharted waters outside the Bible that cast doubt on the goodness of God. For in Calvinism, God forces some to be saved and other to not be saved based on no reason within the individual. This means God just prefers some to remain as evil even though He could change them like He does others. This is a moral dilemma for the Calvinist but they simply cannot see it (or they don't want to see it). In Eternal Security, God has to agree with the believer's thinking that they can sin and still be saved on some level. Meaning, God would have to agree with sin. But this does not work because God is holy, just, and good. I can come up with a few real world examples to show you the truth of why Calvinism and or Eternal Security is not moral, but I am not sure it will help.

Al Touthentop said:

The word baptism isn't used, true. However it is what he's talking about here.

Ephesians 2:1-6
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

The word baptism does not have to be here for this to be talking about baptism. It most definitely is because as Paul explains in Romans 6, the way that a person is made alive, is by being baptized into Christ's death and raised up with Christ (born again). How were we made alive together with Christ?

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

"Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

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So you are adding the meaning of baptism to passages not speaking of baptism.

Getting back to more on subject to the thread. Do you think “born of water” in John 3 refers to Christian baptism? If so why would Jesus expect Nicodemus would be knowledgeable of Christian baptism which was not instituted until after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Al Touthentop said:

The subjunctive mood is used there "might become" for a reason. Were it not required that we obey the gospel, then there is no condition in play. Nobody has to do anything because he's done it all and everyone on earth becomes the righteousness of God in Christ having just existed.

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You are conflating the subject here. The action of Jesus makes possible is what “might become” as opposed to if His works did not would not be possible. That is the context with the parallel given.

Al Touthentop said:

The word baptism isn't used, true. However it is what he's talking about here.

Ephesians 2:1-6
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

The word baptism does not have to be here for this to be talking about baptism. It most definitely is because as Paul explains in Romans 6, the way that a person is made alive, is by being baptized into Christ's death and raised up with Christ (born again). How were we made alive together with Christ?

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

"Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

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Note also (I think you did previously some day)
that those who rejected Jesus as Messiah
were also
the same ones , as written in Scripture, who were NOT baptized.

Al Touthentop said:

You must already agree that sitting around and doing nothing was never anything anyone taught.

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Correct but not the subject here and no one arguing that a blood bought adopted child of God sits on his or her duff all day.

Al Touthentop said:

One has to believe and obey the gospel so that they move from "might" becoming to becoming.

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As noted in the other post that is not being communicated in the text of the passage.

zoidar said:

Can a person be born again more than one time? Please back up with scriptures (and, or with Church fathers).

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NO.

We are not sealed and unsealed and sealed and unsealed and sealed and unsealed by the Spirit of God again and again and again throughout our life depending on how well we are doing in our cooperation with that Spirit.

We are not seated with Christ in Heaven when we are saved and booted off the throne only to be allowed to climb back on the throne when we have proved ourselves contrite enough over and over and over again throughout our lives.

We do not have an advocate before the Father Who is successful in that vocation for some and fails as an advocate for others.

The scriptures do not say that He Who began a good work in us will complete that work in the lives of some and give up in the case of others.

There is no such thing as temporary eternal life. That's a theological no-brainer.

Of course there are some who do not believe that He is the one Who started and will complete the good work that is our salvation. There are some who do not believe that they have been seated with Him in Heaven. There are some who believe that they are their own best advocate before God through their works. There are some who do not believe that they have been sealed eternally with the Spirit of God.

There are, apparently, some who have never rested in the work of Jesus Christ as their only hope of salvation.

Those people perhaps do not have the Spirit of God within them to guide them into all truth. That is likely why they have not been able to vote with a clear "NO" as I have.

redleghunter said:

Correct but not the subject here and no one arguing that a blood bought adopted child of God sits on his or her duff all day.


As noted in the other post that is not being communicated in the text of the passage.

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The passage is not inclusive of everything. As God told Isaiah, the Bible is to be studied, "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little."

A passage in one place can never negate a passage elsewhere. If the passage you cited was the whole gospel, then the rest of the gospel would not have been necessary. The subjunctive mood there indicates by itself that that passage is not the whole message.

The dots must be connected. To receive the righteousness of God in Christ, we have to obey the gospel. Just like the people of the Old Covenant were considered righteous through their obedience to God's commands, we become righteous through our obedience to the gospel, or New Covenant.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God

He didn't make them children of God by their mere reception or belief, he gave them "the right to become children of God." There are conditions which we have to meet.

Even John 3:16 includes conditional phrases letting us know that we "might" have eternal life, not that we "do" have eternal life.

His student said:

We are not sealed and unsealed and sealed and unsealed and sealed and unsealed by the Spirit of God again and again and again throughout our life depending on how well we are doing in our cooperation with that Spirit.

We are not seated with Christ in Heaven when we are saved and booted off the throne only to be allowed to climb back on the throne when we have proved ourselves contrite enough over and over and over again throughout our lives.

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The sealing is only evidence that we have obeyed and that seal is forever, but it isn't salvation. We can chose later to disobey and as John tells us, if we walk in darkness we have no fellowship with God. We are liars if we sin and say we still have fellowship with God. He was talking to sealed Christians when he wrote that. And his message was that sin removed us from our relationship with God, but we could restore it through repentance, confession and forgiveness. We didn't become unsealed, but we did remove ourselves from God's fellowship and protection.

Al Touthentop said:

The sealing is only evidence that we have obeyed and that seal is forever, but it isn't salvation. We can chose later to disobey and as John tells us, if we walk in darkness we have no fellowship with God. We are liars if we sin and say we still have fellowship with God. He was talking to sealed Christians when he wrote that. And his message was that sin removed us from our relationship with God, but we could restore it through repentance, confession and forgiveness.

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One more vote from those among us who do not believe that He started and will complete His work in us.

Al Touthentop said:

I'm not so sure about that. I think God want's us to have assurance. He keeps his promises and he was clear about the requirements. If we're keeping our end of the bargain, and our conscience should be our guide in this, then we have full assurance. As Paul said in Romans, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

John's first letter wants us to have the knowledge that we are in fellowship with God. Knowing is possible he says. God wanted us to know. He doesn't want us unsure of ourselves and thinking that at any moment we're on the brink of hell fire. He wanted us to be confident. Not of course triumphal or anything, but he went through a lot of trouble to bring us that knowledge. If we've been born again and are keeping his commandments, we are in fellowship with him. And if we stumble, he is faithful to forgive us.

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God wants us to have assurance-based on his trustworthiness along with our responses, our fruit, without being rashly over-confidence. Humility in light of our own limitations and weaknesses is also called for. Considering and distilling down all of Scripture makes that pretty clear IMO. Anyway, God, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. For our part we just our put our shoulder to the wheel, taking up our cross, and know He'll do His part- always the right thing.

Consider in the weakness of the flesh, someone THINKS they have been born again.

(many people fit this description)

Then later, they THINK they are born again, again. Another experience.

(some people might fit this description)

Then later, they become actually and truly and truthfully born again ! GOD'S DOING !

Then they MAY THINK that they have been born again three times, eh ?

His student said:

One more vote from those among us who do not believe that He started and will complete His work in us.

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fhansen said:

God wants us to have assurance-based on his trustworthiness along with our responses, our fruit, without being rashly over-confidence. Humility in light of our own limitations and weaknesses is also called for.

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His student said:

One more vote from those among us who do not believe that He started and will complete His work in us.

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He completes his work if we complete ours. What you're suggesting is that a person, once he has started his relationship with God, doesn't have to do anything at all in order for God to "complete his work." This is not taught anywhere in the Bible.

Paul didn't teach that even of himself.

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."

Paul clearly states here that he thinks he must himself do what is necessary to reach the prize. His effort is working jointly with God, not merely sitting back and letting God "complete his work." It is in concert with God that he works and he admonishes them to do the same, to strive and not to shirk.

fhansen said:

God wants us to have assurance-based on his trustworthiness along with our responses, our fruit, without being rashly over-confidence. Humility in light of our own limitations and weaknesses is also called for. Considering and distilling down all of Scripture makes that pretty clear IMO. Anyway, God, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. For our part we just our put our shoulder to the wheel, taking up our cross, and know He'll do His part- always the right thing.

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Agreed. Nicely put.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

It is appointed for man to die once and then the judgement. He died before Yeshua was raised. Where was he when he died?

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I presume Lazarus may have been sick and died in Bethany on the Mt. of Olives near his sisters Martha and Mary. Where Lazarus died a second death is difficult to reckon.

If you write it is appointed for a man to die once, that has been observed in this world. A man might not mean every man.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Note also (I think you did previously some day)
that those who rejected Jesus as Messiah
were also
the same ones , as written in Scripture, who were NOT baptized.

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Let’s follow the logical order witnessed in Acts.

People heard the Gospel
People were called
People believed
People then moved their feet to be baptized.

Why should we complicate this.

Bible Highlighter said:

In Eternal Security, God has to agree with the believer's thinking that they can sin and still be saved on some level. Meaning, God would have to agree with sin. But this does not work because God is holy, just, and good. I can come up with a few real world examples to show you the truth of why Calvinism and or Eternal Security is not moral, but I am not sure it will help.

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No God does not have to agree with sin as He gives eternal life based on the Works of Christ.

redleghunter said:

Never according to the straw men we see here.

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Not true. Spiritual life in the Bible is paralleled with things that relate to life in our physical world. Physical bread (that gives us continued life of the functions of our bodies) is related to Jesus saying that He is the bread of life. Jesus is our spiritual life and our sustenance. But we have to obey His commands in order to abide in His love (See John 15:10). Jesus says his mother, brother, etc. are those who do the will of the Father in Heaven. The will of the Father or God is our Sanctification (See 1 Thessalonians 4:3). Jesus says in John 8 that he that sins is a.... "servant of sin." Jesus says that the "servant" (the servant of sin) will not abide in the house forever. We see an illustration of this in Matthew 13:41-42. At the Judgment: Christ will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (make others to sin), and these angels will cast them into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).

Bible Highlighter said:

Not true. Spiritual life in the Bible is paralleled with things that relate to life in our physical world. Physical bread (that gives us continued life of the functions of our bodies) is related to Jesus saying that He is the bread of life. Jesus is our spiritual life and our sustenance. But we have to obey His commands in order to abide in His love (See John 15:10). Jesus says his mother, brother, etc. are those who do the will of the Father in Heaven. The will of the Father or God is our Sanctification (See 1 Thessalonians 4:3). Jesus says in John 8 that he that sins is a.... "servant of sin." Jesus says that the "servant" (the servant of sin) will not abide in the house forever. We see an illustration of this in Matthew 13:41-42. At the Judgment: Christ will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (make others to sin), and these angels will cast them into the furnace of fire (the Lake of Fire).

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Right and how does this explain your assertions about the perseverance and preservation of the saints? It doesn’t.

Al Touthentop said:

The passage is not inclusive of everything. As God told Isaiah, the Bible is to be studied, "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little."

A passage in one place can never negate a passage elsewhere. If the passage you cited was the whole gospel, then the rest of the gospel would not have been necessary. The subjunctive mood there indicates by itself that that passage is not the whole message.

The dots must be connected. To receive the righteousness of God in Christ, we have to obey the gospel. Just like the people of the Old Covenant were considered righteous through their obedience to God's commands, we become righteous through our obedience to the gospel, or New Covenant.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God

He didn't make them children of God by their mere reception or belief, he gave them "the right to become children of God." There are conditions which we have to meet.

Even John 3:16 includes conditional phrases letting us know that we "might" have eternal life, not that we "do" have eternal life.

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Correct. Then why did you try to make a verse say what it did not say?