Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

keras · Dec 9, 2019

Christians are not the "replacement of the Jews" as the chosen people. But the Bible says that Christians are added into God’s people, by reason of their faith.

It was prophesied:

Genesis 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, says the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Jesus came and they rejected Him:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Apostles later confirmed:
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:14-17, Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who doeth all these things. KJV

It was prophesied long ago in Amos 9:11-12 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, says the LORD that doeth this.

Most fail to realize that it was prophesied that those "outside the camp" would become worthy to seek the Lord. Even Jesus touched on this in His parable regarding the wedding feast in Matthew 22:1-14…... For many are called, but few are chosen.

Many Jews claim Jesus never spoke of the Jews as deserving of replacement. When this parable is shared they mock it. But, the parable of the vineyard clearly says the Jews KNEW He was talking about them. It says this in Luke 20:9-19….. What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

Hosea 1:9, 5:5, 6:8, 2:4, 9:15-17 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. And the pride of Israel doth testify to his face: therefore shall Israel and Ephraim fall in their iniquity; Judah also shall fall with them. They shall go with their flocks and with their herds to seek the Lord; but they shall not find him; he hath withdrawn himself from them. Israel shall cry unto me, My God, we know thee. Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him. They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off. All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Romans 9:30-31 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

In other words, shall we now have a problem that the unchosen Gentiles that became chosen and the chosen Israelites chose to become unchosen by blatant apostasy?

Romans 11:1-2 I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. KJV

Paul makes a good point here. So many people say replacement theology is a lie. But as Paul makes clear in this passage, he never left his Jewish roots. The only difference between him and the lost Jews is that he chose to believe Jesus. So in actuality, God never replaced them, they left Him all on their own and now every Christian has been grafted into the ‘olive tree’ of the righteous Israel of God.

mkgal1 · Dec 9, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Rev. John Hagee argues that Jesus is the savior of the Gentiles, but He is not (at least was not in the first century) the Jewish Messiah:

thomas_t said:
I don't know Hagee.
I am opposed to saying that Israel is no longer Israel today but it is the church. I am merely opposed to this replacement.

thomas_t said:
I simply don't know him, so I can't know whether I'm in agreement with his writings or not.

thomas_t said:
there are two promises: Christians are saved by grace.
Jews (as a group on the group level) are saved because of their connection to the forefathers

ISTM that both Hagee and yourself are suggesting that there are two distinct plans of salvation - one for the Jews and another for the Gentiles. But that completely overlooks the fact that Jesus (and the apostles, Saul/Paul, and the early church) came from the tribes of the Israelites. It wasn't their lineage that "saved them".

keras said:
Christians are not the "replacement of the Jews" as the chosen people. But the Bible says that Christians are added into God’s people, by reason of their faith.

I agree.

sovereigngrace · Dec 9, 2019

thomas_t said:
Jews (as a group on the group level) are saved because of their connection to the forefathers (Romans 11:26).

Hi!

What do you mean by "saved"?

jgr · Dec 9, 2019

thomas_t said:
Jews (as a group on the group level) are saved because of their connection to the forefathers

Hi T,

If my Ancestry DNA came back 1% Jewish, would I be saved whether or not I wanted to be saved?

As a Jew, being saved would be the equivalent to me of being cursed.

Douggg · Dec 9, 2019

jgr said:
As a Jew, being saved would be the equivalent to me of being cursed.

huh?

Are you aware that Jews (Judaism) believe the passage about God being the only Savior, in their view means saved from physical destruction?

jgr · Dec 10, 2019

Douggg said:
huh?

Are you aware that Jews (Judaism) believe the passage about God being the only Savior, in their view means saved from physical destruction?

In their view, the idea of being saved from sin by the Blood of the Christ whom they abhor is a detestable abomination to them.

thomas_t · Dec 10, 2019

Hi Gal,

mkgal1 said:
Romans 11:26 ~ And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; He will banish ungodliness from Jacob."
Paul also wrote this:

Romans 9:8 ~ So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

Your first verse is not mentioning children (I think I told you already).
But we agree: Jesus is the only Messiah.
Nevertheless he is allowed to promise a people (the Jews) salvation on the group level. For the sake of their forefathers who would be sad otherwise.

mkgal1 said:
Christ has always definitely been the light referred to.

Nevertheless, you couldn't believe in his death and resurrection before he even died.

mkgal1 said:
ISTM that both Hagee and yourself [...]

As I said: I don't know Hagee, so I can't judge whether or not my views and his are the same or similar. This should be clear by now.

mkgal1 said:
yourself are suggesting that there are two distinct plans of salvation - one for the Jews and another for the Gentiles.

In my opinion, Bible normally speaks about salvation on the individual level. But Romans 11:26 is different. Romans 11:26 is adressing the group level (all Israel). Messianics, as you suggest as the only ones being mentioned by this verse, can't be saved because of their connection to the forefathers (Romans 11:28) though. All individuals only can be saved by believing in Jesus. Cause Jesus's grace is enough... also for Messianic Jews. No forefathers needed.
When you're saying Romans 11:28 refers to Christians (althoug Israel is mentioned there!)... this would be your second plan for salvation of individuals, as the whole passage is about salvation (verse 26). 1. salvation because you believe in Jesus. 2. salvation for the sake of the forefathers.

---

jgr said:
If my Ancestry DNA came back 1% Jewish, would I be saved whether or not I wanted to be saved?

Here again, in my opinion, Romans 11:26 is talking on the group level (all Israel). In my opinion it's not about individuals getting saved for 1% DNA or not.

---

sovereigngrace said:
What do you mean by "saved"?

Hi Sovereign grace.
I just quote the verse about Israel being saved.
Personally, I'm not sure what salvation is.
For myself I believe to spend the eternity with Jesus. However I'm not sure if salvation refers to this or rather to earthly things.
Btw, I'm not interested in theology.
My interest in this thread is that people don't come and claim Israel isn't Israel, which is desrepectful against them.

When we read the verse "All Israel is saved" (Romans 11:26)... some people come up saying "no, this is not Israel!".
My focus in this thread is on the all Israel part of the verse trying to convince people that Israel is Israel indeed. Salvation certainly is being discussed somewhere else.

Thomas

Douggg · Dec 10, 2019

jgr said:
In their view, the idea of being saved from sin by the Blood of the Christ whom they abhor is a detestable abomination to them.

As part of their countermissionary rhetoric, they say the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross is a form of human sacrifice. That's the rhetoric, in their current state of unbelief..

The prophecies in Revelation 12:10-17, however, indicate the Jews will turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation in the middle of the seven years. Zechariah 14:3-5 is a reference to them, as when Jesus returns at His Second Coming and splits the Mt of Olives in half. Them who escape through the valley created to avoid harm do so in similitude as their forefathers did in the days of Uzziah the king of Judah.

sovereigngrace · Dec 10, 2019

thomas_t said:
Hi Sovereign grace.
I just quote the verse about Israel being saved.
Personally, I'm not sure what salvation is.
For myself I believe to spend the eternity with Jesus. However I'm not sure if salvation refers to this or rather to earthly things.
Btw, I'm not interested in theology.
My interest in this thread is that people don't come and claim Israel isn't Israel, which is desrepectful against them.

When we read the verse "All Israel is saved" (Romans 11:26)... some people come up saying "no, this is not Israel!".
My focus in this thread is on the all Israel part of the verse trying to convince people that Israel is Israel indeed. Salvation certainly is being discussed somewhere else.

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Thanks for your reply.

But salvation has always been a personal experience. It is a change of heart from self to God. Ask Esau! God says in Malachi 1:2-3 tells us: “I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau.”

This man could not of had a better chance. His grandfather was Abraham, his father was Isaac, his brother was Jacob, yet he ended up in hell.

His Hebrew credentials were impeccable!

Numbers 16:26 describes Israelites Korah, Dathan, and Abiram as “wicked men.” Whilst all of these were off pure Hebrew stock, they did not belong to the Lord. Their awful end (and that of their families) is seen when confirms that: “And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods” (Numbers 16:32).

1 Samuel 2:12 gives us another similar example of priestly men who where enemies of God: "Now the sons of Eli (Hophni and Phinehas) were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD."

Young person in the service tonight, you will never make it to heaven through your parents relationship. You must have a personal encounter with the Lord.

Belial was a common name for Satan in the Old Testament. 1 Samuel 25:25 gives us another example of an Israelite who was unsaved. He is described as “this man of Belial, even Nabal.” Earlier in 1 Samuel 25:3 he is described as “the man was churlish and evil in his doings; and he was of the house of Caleb.”

Whilst he had good pedigree, being “of the house of Caleb,” he was nonetheless a child of the evil one.

We find a Benjamite in 2 Samuel 20:1 who is described as “a man of Belial, whose name was Sheba.”

Israeli birthright was not enough. There had to be more.

What about the Pharisees in Jesus day? They were solidly Israeli. They were convinced that they were God’s chosen people. They boasted that they were the children of Abraham. Were they?

Jesus rebuked them in John 8:39–44: “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth … If God were your Father, ye would love me … Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (vv 39-44).

Most Jews today are the same!

We need to ask: according to Scripture, does anyone who rejects Christ have the right to call themselves a chosen child of God?

mkgal1 · Dec 10, 2019

thomas_t said:
Your first verse is not mentioning children (I think I told you already).
But we agree: Jesus is the only Messiah.
Nevertheless he is allowed to promise a people (the Jews) salvation on the group level. For the sake of their forefathers who would be sad otherwise.

I had quoted this verse because it states how all Israel is saved (I don't understand why you dismiss it for not mentioning children?)

Romans 11:26 ~ And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; He will banish ungodliness from Jacob."

Ray Vander Laan does, IMO, an excellent job of relaying the story of God's restoration and healing. I subscribe to his videos, so I'm not sure if this can be viewed by others that don't subscribe - does this video play for others?

Volume 13 | Israel's Mission <------ another link for whole series.

mkgal1 · Dec 10, 2019

thomas_t said:
In my opinion, Bible normally speaks about salvation on the individual level. But Romans 11:26 is different. Romans 11:26 is adressing the group level (all Israel). Messianics, as you suggest as the only ones being mentioned by this verse, can't be saved because of their connection to the forefathers (Romans 11:28) though. All individuals only can be saved by believing in Jesus. Cause Jesus's grace is enough... also for Messianic Jews. No forefathers needed.
When you're saying Romans 11:28 refers to Christians (althoug Israel is mentioned there!)... this would be your second plan for salvation of individuals, as the whole passage is about salvation (verse 26). 1. salvation because you believe in Jesus. 2. salvation for the sake of the forefathers.

This post isn't quite coherent.

I think you have misunderstood what I've posted about Romans 11:28. I'm trying to make a deliberate attempt at not using the label "Christian" because that confuses things when speaking of Jesus' ministry since He was focused on "Daniel's people" and He and His followers were from the tribes of Israel.

What I *did* say is that you can't say that "all Israel are enemies of the Gospel" because the Gospel was brought to us through Israel and spread to all the nations by faithful Israelites.

mkgal1 · Dec 10, 2019

thomas_t said:
My interest in this thread is that people don't come and claim Israel isn't Israel, which is desrepectful against them.

When we read the verse "All Israel is saved" (Romans 11:26)... some people come up saying "no, this is not Israel!".
My focus in this thread is on the all Israel part of the verse trying to convince people that Israel is Israel indeed. Salvation certainly is being discussed somewhere else.

Then maybe it's beneficial to go all the way back to the beginning and see who the Israelites were?

We know they weren't identified by their location of residence or place on a map (because they were wandering in the wilderness ) and even foreigners were included in the group (so it can't be based on who their fathers were). Being a part of this assembly wasn't about race - it was about allegiance to the True God:

Isaiah 56 ~

Salvation for Foreigners

This is what the LORD says:

“Maintain justice and do what is right,

for My salvation is coming soon,

and My righteousness will be revealed.

Blessed is the man who does this,

and the son of man who holds it fast,

who keeps the Sabbath without profaning it,

and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,

“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”

And let the eunuch not say,

“I am but a dry tree.”

For this is what the LORD says:

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,

who choose what pleases Me

and hold fast to My covenant—

I will give them, in My house and within My walls,

a memorial and a name

better than that of sons and daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name

that will not be cut off.

And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD

to minister to Him,

to love the name of the LORD,

and to be His servants—

all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it

and who hold fast to My covenant—

I will bring them to My holy mountain

and make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices

will be accepted on My altar,

for My house will be called a house of prayer

for all the nations.”

Thus declares the Lord GOD,

who gathers the dispersed of Israel:

“I will gather to them still others

besides those already gathered.”

mkgal1 · Dec 10, 2019

Claninja posted this in another thread - this demonstrates how, early on, there were "foreigners" brought in to the assembly:

Claninja said:
Salmon (tribe of Judah) and Rahab(Canaanite) had Boaz

Boaz (mixed half tribe of Judah, half Canaanite) and Ruth (Moabite) had Obed

Obed (half Moabite, quarter Canaanite, and quarter Jewish ) fathered Jesse

and Jesse fathered David.

Right here, we can see that while Obed could trace his lineage through Judah, he was barely of the DNA of Israel.

Matthew 1:5 Salmon was the father of Boaz by Rahab, Boaz the father of Obed by Ruth,

Both Rahab and Ruth, who were not born Israelites, had faith and were thus included into Israel and the promises of God, as God used their lineage to bring forth the Messiah.

Rahab is even listed with the heroes of faith, who did not receive what was promised, because God, through Christ, had planned something better for her (them and us).

Hebrews 11:31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies in peace, did not perish with those who were disobedient.

Hebrews 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. God had planned something better for us, so that together with us they would be made perfect.

mkgal1 · Dec 10, 2019

thomas_t said:
My interest in this thread is that people don't come and claim Israel isn't Israel, which is desrepectful against them.

ISTM that with your zeal to not be disrespectful towards this group that we're having difficulty defining - you're overlooking what God has fulfilled.

"Israel" - as I see it being told through story in the Bible - are the "people of God". The covenant is broken when they chase after foreign gods (as it happened when they chased after Baal and were cut off from the group 1 Kings 19 BSB ).

Exodus 6:7
I will take you as My own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the yoke of the Egyptians.

Jeremiah 24:7
I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD. They will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with all their heart.

Jeremiah 31:1
"At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be My people."

Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

Hebrews 10:16
"This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My Laws in their hearts and inscribe them on their minds."

Hebrews 12:22-24 ~ But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels. You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect. You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel.

As it was written:

Isaiah 56:7 ~ Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples."

mkgal1 · Dec 10, 2019

Quoting from a linked article:
Real Restoration: Acts: Paul’s Sermon at Antioch in Pisidia
by Jay F Guin

In Acts 13, we read Paul’s first recorded sermon, delivered early during his first missionary journey —

(Act 13:16-41 ESV) 6 So Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said: “Men of Israel and you who fear God, listen.”

“You who fear God” is a reference to Gentile believers in God. Paul was speaking in a synagogue, and there were Gentiles present for Torah study.

17 “The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with uplifted arm he led them out of it. 18 And for about forty years he put up with them in the wilderness. 19 And after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan, he gave them their land as an inheritance. 20 All this took about 450 years. And after that he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. 21 Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king, of whom he testified and said, ‘I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my heart, who will do all my will.’

Just as Peter and Stephen did, Paul reminded his listeners of God’s redemptive story. Unlike Stephen, Paul’s theme isn’t Israel’s disobedience and rejection of God’s prophets. Rather, Paul emphasizes God’s movement in history. God “chose our fathers,” “made the people great,” “led them,” “put up with them,” “gave them their land,” “gave them judges,” “gave them Saul,” and “raised up David.” The lesson is God’s love and providential care for Israel.

“23 Of this man’s offspring God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus, as he promised.”

Again, the subject of Paul’s sentence is “God.” God, who has repeatedly shown his love for Israel by giving them many good things, has now given them Jesus.

“Savior” is a term used of God repeatedly in the Old Testament. To call Jesus “Savior” before a Jewish audience was to call him “God.”

24 “Before his coming, John had proclaimed a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was finishing his course, he said, ‘What do you suppose that I am? I am not he. No, but behold, after me one is coming, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie.'”

John the Baptist was widely recognized to have been a prophet, and Paul reminds them that John said he would shortly be followed by the Messiah. Paul is building his case that Jesus is the Messiah.

26 “Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation.”

“Message of salvation” is likely a reference to —

(Isa 52:7 ESV) 7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.” (rest of article here: Real Restoration: Acts: Paul’s Sermon at Antioch in Pisidia )

mkgal1 · Dec 10, 2019

The issue of what sort of "salvation" was promised was a source of disunity in the days of Jesus' generation.

Quoting Ray Vander Laan:
The Seeds of Revolt

The Seeds
After the Romans began their occupation of Judea in 64 BC, the Jews became divided on how to respond.

The religious leaders, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Messiah would come from the Jewish people and make Israel a great, free nation. They condemned Rome's access and viewed Romans as oppressors punishing God's people for their unfaithfulness to the Torah.

The Sadducees and secular leaders decided to cooperate with the Romans, who gave them various special privileges (John 11:49-50).

The Zealots proclaimed revolution to be God's solution to Roman oppression (Acts 5:37).

The Essenes waited for the Messiah to lead a violent overthrow of the Romans and their Jewish supporters, while the Herodions (nonreligious Jews who supported Herod) were completely satisfied with Herod's dynasty (Matt. 22:16).

The Sparks
The Jews were motivated to revolt by a number of different factors. After Herod Agrippa I died, the Romans appointed a series of increasingly cruel, corrupt governors to rule over the Jews, causing confusion, hatred, and division.

The paganism of Rome's culture offended the Jews, and the Jewish priests, who became more dependent on Roman security and support, became more corrupt. Priests and their followers also began fighting each other in the streets.

During feast days, especially Passover, nationalistic tensions escalated, causing Rome to increase its military presence. Wanting to serve God in their own way, the Jews longed for freedom.

Although Jesus warned his followers not to participate in military methods of bringing his kingdom, some Jewish people decided to seek out salvation through political and military might. Their actions brought about the Jewish Revolts and ultimately led to their destruction. ~ The Seeds of Revolt

Temple Events

The Jewish Revolts

Jewish people of Jesus' day had a passionate desire for freedom from the domination of the pagan Romans and the oppressive Herod dynasty that had ruled them for many years. Revolt seethed continuously, mostly underground, for more than 100 years from the time Herod became king (37 BC) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70).It is helpful to realize that this underlying struggle is the backdrop for Jesus' ministry, and why so many hoped he would be a conquering king. This helps us understand why the adulation of the crowds during the triumphal entry reduced Jesus to tears, and probably why many rejected his message. ~ The Jewish Revolts

Douggg · Dec 10, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Jesus rebuked them in John 8:39–44: “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth … If God were your Father, ye would love me … Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do” (vv 39-44).

Most Jews today are the same!

I would not say most Jews of today are of the devil. Instead, I would say that they are in unbelief, and many are in strong rejection, that Jesus is the messiah, his death and resurrection, for the salvation of their soul.

Being in an unsaved state, applies to everyone before they believe on Jesus, and pray to God, calling on Jesus's name. Most Jews try to be right with God by doing mitzvahs, righteous acts, to follow the Torah...even though as we know that path is insufficient to remove a person's sins as though those sins had never happened. Jesus emphasized (paraphrased), apart from him, a person will die in their sins.

Welcome to the forum, btw.

thomas_t · Dec 10, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
We need to ask: according to Scripture, does anyone who rejects Christ have the right to call themselves a chosen child of God?

That's not the question, I think.
the people in here rather seem to ask: Does Israel have the right to call themselves Israel. And that's the question I'm trying to answer. Of course they do.

sovereigngrace said:
But salvation has always been a personal experience.

That's your guess.
One thing is for sure: if you want to be saved personally, you need the personal experience.
But who says Jesus can't save entire groups?
Groups, as opposed to individuals, can't believe in their heart as they don't have one. That's how I infer there must be a different mechanism applied to groups than it is on the individual level.

---

mkgal1 said:
(I don't understand why you dismiss [the verse] for not mentioning children?)

I didn't dismiss the verse.

mkgal1 said:
I think you have misunderstood what I've posted about Romans 11:28. I'm trying to make a deliberate attempt at not using the label "Christian" because that confuses things when speaking of Jesus' ministry since He was focused on "Daniel's people" and He and His followers were from the tribes of Israel.

you said:

mkgal1 said:
the fact that Paul - the disciples - John, Elizabeth, Mary, the 3,000 that believed at Pentecost were ALL Israelites in every sense of the word:

they were Christians as a matter of fact. You referred to them.

mkgal1 said:
you can't say that "all Israel are enemies of the Gospel"

ok. Bible says so. Romans 11:28.

mkgal1 said:
and even foreigners were included in the group (so it can't be based on who their fathers were).

in agreement with the first sentence...
I'm assuming the forefathers want their entire group saved, including the foreigners, and that's why Jesus will save them as announced in the Bible.

mkgal1 said:
this group that we're having difficulty defining

yes, here we agree.

mkgal1 said:
"Israel" - as I see it being told through story in the Bible - are the "people of God". The covenant is broken when they chase after foreign gods (as it happened when they chased after Baal and were cut off from the group 1 Kings 19 BSB ).

But they still remained Israel.
When Israel chased after some other God in Exodus - you even cite this book - they kept remaining Israel.
It's a fable that once Israel prayed to other gods it lost their identity of being Israel.
The Bible is full of stories when they had other Gods... yet fully remaining Israel.
BTW, Christians also follow other gods at times, just the way Israel chased after other gods.

mkgal1 · Dec 10, 2019

thomas_t said:
Does Israel have the right to call themselves Israel. And that's the question I'm trying to answer. Of course they do.

They are geopolitical Israel, but the "Israel" that the bible is addressing was 4,000 years ago (if I have my timeline correct) up until the New Testament time. The Bible is not addressing a geopolitical location on the map in modern times. It's important that we keep the Bible in context.

If I named my first son, Moses - would he be rightfully offended when everyone tells him he's not the Moses in the Bible from thousands of years ago? As his mother - should I protect him from ever hearing that truth - worried that he'd feel he was being disrespected?

We are to love even our enemies as Christians - so that leaves little room to disrespect anyone (but there ought to be equality in how we love others. There shouldn't be imbalanced bias in either direction). In that video I shared (God on our Side) it's brought up how astute it was of Jesus to tell the story of the Good Samaritan the way He did. The man was unconscious (so no one could hear an accent or language he spoke)....and he was naked (so it couldn't be determined by his clothing where he was from). Jesus presented the Samaritan as a human in need.

mkgal1 · Dec 10, 2019

thomas_t said:
But they still remained Israel.
When Israel chased after some other God in Exodus - you even cite this book - they kept remaining Israel.
It's a fable that once Israel prayed to other gods it lost their identity of being Israel.
The Bible is full of stories when they had other Gods... yet fully remaining Israel.
BTW, Christians also follow other gods at times, just the way Israel chased after other gods.

You're correct. God was very gracious to them and long suffering.
But yet - you strip the label of "Israel" from the faithful. You did it right here:

I said:

mkgal said:
the fact that Paul - the disciples - John, Elizabeth, Mary, the 3,000 that believed at Pentecost were ALL Israelites in every sense of the word

But you posted in response to that:

Thomas said:
they were Christians as a matter of fact. You referred to them.

I don't know what me referring to them has to do with anything. I don't think I stripped them of their identification as Israelites and called them "Christians" - because I'm trying to make a conscious effort NOT to even use that term. Again.....you seem to be moving Scripture verses around to support your believed narrative. According to what I'm understanding about your beliefs -faithful Israelites are now Christians (and their connection to the Israelites is removed from them)....and "ALL Israel" (according to your interpretation of Romans 11:28) means ALL varieties of Israel are "enemies of the gospel".

Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Blessings Collector

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Similar threads